Tyler Johnson to the Suns

slinslin

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Here is another one for you @slinslin.

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Quoting random guys from twitter is not going to change facts.

Evan Sidery? Give me a break.

I gave you the quote straight from the CBA

A renegotiation can only be used to provide a salary increase -- players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create more cap room for the team.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q59
 

JCSunsfan

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Can anyone confirm Anderson’s cap hit for next year? Not his actual payout but the team’s cap hit...
I think Gambo is right. Only the guaranteed portion of a contract counts against the cap if that player is waived. I do not know how Anderson was able to adjust that number while under contract. What I do know is that if Anderson's deal had value, it had to be moved now.

JJ got a return in the form of Tyler Johnson for Anderson's expiring. It is virtually the same as signing Johnson this summer for $4 million. That would probably be a move we would laud this summer. After all, we are going to have to sign several players. Looks like we got Troy Daniels replacement a little early.
 
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Quoting random guys from twitter is not going to change facts.

Evan Sidery? Give me a break.

I gave you the quote straight from the CBA

A renegotiation can only be used to provide a salary increase -- players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create more cap room for the team.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q59

I was letting you have some more fun. :wink2:
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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Quoting random guys from twitter is not going to change facts.

Evan Sidery? Give me a break.

I gave you the quote straight from the CBA

A renegotiation can only be used to provide a salary increase -- players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create more cap room for the team.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q59
I have seen it reported in multiple places that he took a $5m pay-cut in 2019-20 in order to facilitate the trade to the Suns. Maybe you are onto something, but it seems awfully strange that this would be reported multiple times (to include reputable sources) if it wasn’t true.
 

JCSunsfan

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Quoting random guys from twitter is not going to change facts.

Evan Sidery? Give me a break.

I gave you the quote straight from the CBA

A renegotiation can only be used to provide a salary increase -- players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create more cap room for the team.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q59
I think you are wrong about this, Slin. This isn't about just taking a pay cut. It is about a non-guaranteed portion. I am still not totally sure but it seems sporttrac is treating it as if his cap hit is $15.6 if the Suns do not pick up his guarantee.
 

slinslin

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I think you are wrong about this, Slin. This isn't about just taking a pay cut. It is about a non-guaranteed portion. I am still not totally sure but it seems sporttrac is treating it as if his cap hit is $15.6 if the Suns do not pick up his guarantee.

What the Suns and Anderson LIKELY did is using
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q60

To alter the amount of compensation protection -- i.e., the guarantee (see question number 63). This is commonly done as part of a buyout (see question number 66).

But this again only alters the salary it does not change the cap number!
 

elindholm

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Quoting random guys from twitter is not going to change facts.

Evan Sidery? Give me a break.

I gave you the quote straight from the CBA

A renegotiation can only be used to provide a salary increase -- players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create more cap room for the team.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q59

Slinslin, I try to support you, but you make it difficult.

Anderson's contract does not require a renegotiation, and he would not be taking a pay cut. The final year is only partially guaranteed; that's how the deal was drawn up. This is covered at http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q63.

If Anderson is bought out for 2019-20, the amount that he "would have" made by staying on a roster is irrelevant. The contract does not guarantee that amount; it only stipulates what the team would have to pay in order to keep him around.

As confirmed by http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q67, the buyout amount still counts against the team's salary. But that's only the amount that was guaranteed, not the full "would have" amount.
 

slinslin

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I have seen it reported in multiple places that he took a $5m pay-cut in 2019-20 in order to facilitate the trade to the Suns. Maybe you are onto something, but it seems awfully strange that this would be reported multiple times (to include reputable sources) if it wasn’t true.
because people are lazy and are parroting each other, the CBA is pretty clear on this.
 

slinslin

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. The final year is only partially guaranteed; that's how the deal was drawn up.

Where is the proof that Anderson's contract originally had a partial guarantee in his last year?

As far as we know his contract was fully guaranteed and he agreed to reduce his guaranteed salary for 2020 when he was traded to the Suns which is covered in
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q60

Even if he had a partial guarantee originally Q59 prevents renegotiating to reduce his salary further.
 

Chaplin

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Where is the proof that Anderson's contract originally had a partial guarantee in his last year?

As far as we know his contract was fully guaranteed and he agreed to reduce his guaranteed salary for 2020 when he was traded to the Suns which is covered in
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q60

Even if he had a partial guarantee originally Q59 prevents renegotiating to reduce his salary further.
That would be my question. I have no memory of his last year being partially guaranteed. I only heard it was a negotiation of the cash payout only if stretched.
 

slinslin

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Where is the proof that it didn't?

because this was reported all over the place when Anderson was traded to the Suns that it included him reducing the guaranteed money in his final year which is Q60
  • To alter the amount of compensation protection -- i.e., the guarantee (see question number 63). This is commonly done as part of a buyout (see question number 66).
which you acknowledged yourself by Q67 does not alter the cap
and Q59 also states renegotiating contracts is ONLY possible to increase a players salary and only by teams under the cap.
 

GatorAZ

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I think Gambo is right. Only the guaranteed portion of a contract counts against the cap if that player is waived. I do not know how Anderson was able to adjust that number while under contract. What I do know is that if Anderson's deal had value, it had to be moved now.

JJ got a return in the form of Tyler Johnson for Anderson's expiring. It is virtually the same as signing Johnson this summer for $4 million. That would probably be a move we would laud this summer. After all, we are going to have to sign several players. Looks like we got Troy Daniels replacement a little early.

This was my question. Did we just essentially give Johnson a 1 year deal for 4m or not based on Anderson’s cap hit? Sounds like we did. I thought we might’ve gained ~2m in cap space even had we bought out Anderson.
 

Chris_Sanders

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Slin is correct here guys. It came up before and I went and looked at past cap years and the listed cap was always the full hold, not the buyout numbers.

It's the entire reason trading for expiring contracts matters because you can't just buyout guys to create cap space. If you could the big market teams would have an even larger advantage
 

JCSunsfan

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OK. I checked and here is the applicable factors I think.

60. In what other ways can an existing contract be modified?
Other than extensions (see question number 58) and renegotiations (see question number 59), a team and player can mutually modify an existing contract as follows:

  • To alter the amount of compensation protection -- i.e., the guarantee (see question number 63). This is commonly done as part of a buyout (see question number 66).
  • To eliminate an option or ETO (see question number 57). Note that eliminating an option does NOT constitute illegally shortening a contract, since an option year isn't considered part of the original term of a contract until it is invoked.
  • To reduce the amount of a trade bonus (see question number 99).
  • To waive set-off (see question number 65), which is commonly done in conjunction with a buyout (see question number 66).
  • To alter the pay schedule (see question number 115). However, when a contract signed under the current CBA is terminated through the waiver process, the pay schedule is automatically "stretched" (see question number 64).
  • To alter the window of time during which an option may be invoked (rare).
  • To alter the list of outside activities in which the player is allowed to participate (rare).
  • To change the section of the standard contract that permits the team to suspend the player if the player does not maintain sufficient physical condition.

The last year of Anderson's contract is essentially an option year for BOTH player and team. It is a PLAYER option for an additional year at $21 million. It is a TEAM option to waive the player with a guaranteed $15.6 million. Changing the player guaranteed portion of the option can be mutually modified under bullet point 2. If an option can be eliminated, I assume it can also be altered by mutual agreement. Anderson essentially has a PLAYER OPTION for 2019/2021. He could choose to leave and become a free agent. Because he can do this, he can choose to lower the amount of the buyout and that lowered amount is reflected in the actual cap hit.

All that it says is Gambo is right, Sidery is right. Slin is wrong.
 
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Folster

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OK. I checked and here is the applicable factors I think.

60. In what other ways can an existing contract be modified?
Other than extensions (see question number 58) and renegotiations (see question number 59), a team and player can mutually modify an existing contract as follows:

  • To alter the amount of compensation protection -- i.e., the guarantee (see question number 63). This is commonly done as part of a buyout (see question number 66).
  • To eliminate an option or ETO (see question number 57). Note that eliminating an option does NOT constitute illegally shortening a contract, since an option year isn't considered part of the original term of a contract until it is invoked.
  • To reduce the amount of a trade bonus (see question number 99).
  • To waive set-off (see question number 65), which is commonly done in conjunction with a buyout (see question number 66).
  • To alter the pay schedule (see question number 115). However, when a contract signed under the current CBA is terminated through the waiver process, the pay schedule is automatically "stretched" (see question number 64).
  • To alter the window of time during which an option may be invoked (rare).
  • To alter the list of outside activities in which the player is allowed to participate (rare).
  • To change the section of the standard contract that permits the team to suspend the player if the player does not maintain sufficient physical condition.

The last year of Anderson's contract is essentially an option year for BOTH player and team. It is a PLAYER option for an additional year at $21 million. It is a TEAM option to waive the player with a guaranteed $15.6 million. Changing the player guaranteed portion of the option can be mutually modified under bullet point 2. If an option can be eliminated, I assume it can also be altered by mutual agreement.

So what you're saying is??? Would Ryan Anderson's cap hit be 21 or 15.6?
 

slinslin

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The last year of Anderson's contract is essentially an option year for BOTH player and team. It is a PLAYER option for an additional year at $21 million. It is a TEAM option to waive the player with a guaranteed $15.6 million. Changing the player guaranteed portion of the option can be mutually modified under bullet point 2. If an option can be eliminated, I assume it can also be altered by mutual agreement.

Sorry but I am pretty sure this is 100% fictional.

It is not a team option whatsoever.

and your conclusion is invalidated by Q59.
 

slinslin

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please answer me this

if it was possible to modify the guaranteed amount a player is due and then waive him/buy him out and only account for the the actual buyout amount on the cap, then why are teams over the luxury tax spending picks even to move small contracts to avoid the luxury tax instead of simply modifying a deal and buying a player out?

Certainly they can always find a player that is willing to get bought out in order to sign a new contract elsewhere.
 

Hoop Head

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Quoting random guys from twitter is not going to change facts.

Evan Sidery? Give me a break.

I gave you the quote straight from the CBA

A renegotiation can only be used to provide a salary increase -- players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create more cap room for the team.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q59

Actually you are wrong. Anderson's cap hit is $21 million but his deal was renegotiated to lower the guaranteed amount of salary he receives in the final year of the contract. If he is retained by the Heat for next season then his full $21 million is guaranteed but if he's waived or bought out then only the guaranteed amount of salary is counted against the cap. You are correct in that a player can not renegotiate his contract to create cap space for his team but the main takeaway from that is how a player does not have a team if they are waived. So the player, Anderson in this case, agreed to reduce the amount of guaranteed money on the final year of his contract. If he's retained then he loses nothing but if he's waived he would only received that guaranteed amount and the number that counts against the cap is the guaranteed amount.


See question #60 about other things in contracts that can be renegotiated...


  • To alter the amount of compensation protection -- i.e., the guarantee (see question number 63). This is commonly done as part of a buyout (see question number 66).


http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q60
 

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