Tyler Johnson to the Suns

[slinslin]

Actually you are wrong. Anderson's cap hit is $21 million but his deal was renegotiated to lower the guaranteed amount of salary he receives in the final year of the contract. If he is retained by the Heat for next season then his full $21 million is guaranteed but if he's waived or bought out then only the guaranteed amount of salary is counted against the cap. You are correct in that a player can not renegotiate his contract to create cap space for his team the main takeaway from that is how a player does not have a team if they are waived. So the player, Anderson in this case, agreed that to reduce the amount of guaranteed money on the final year of his contract. If he's retained then he loses nothing but if he's waived he would only received that guaranteed amount and the number that counts against the cap is the guaranteed amount.


See question #60 about other things in contracts that can be renegotiated...





http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q60

Invalidated by Q59, this is essentially a "pay cut" to increase a teams cap

If what you said was true please answer my question above. Why don't we see teams consistently buy out players to manipulate their cap? We don't because it is not how it works.

Surely a lot of players would be open to that in order to sign a new deal somwhere else and mutually agree to a buyout with a team that would gain capspace from this or luxury tax relief.

 

[Folster]

It's 21.

Otherwise everyone just buys out their bad deals to hand out max contracts

Players would have to agree to the lesser buyout. It's not like the teams can just arbitrarily lower a guaranteed contract.

 

[slinslin]

Players would have to agree to the lesser buyout. It's not like the teams can just arbitrarily lower a guaranteed contract.

which players consistently do to sign elsewhere already but never because the team is interested in manipulating its cap number.

 

[Cheesebeef]

you know how I know this season sucks? There's a 17 page thread about a completely nothing deal.

 

[JCSunsfan]

To me. the only explanation for what happened last summer was a mutual option. I am glad to be proven wrong though. If Slin can prove the cap hit would have been $21 million even if Anderson was released and paid his $15.6 million guarantee, go for it. I would love to see it.

 

[sdscard4]

I will wait and see how he plays with us. Same stuff was being said about Oubre. The sky is falling lol

 

[slinslin]

Team A has 40M$ caproom and a player B on the cap next season with 10M$ and 1 year left

Team A says to B hey you are not in our plans for next season anymore and we need more capspace, how about we re-negotiate your guaranteed money to 5M$ and buy you out? We get to 45M$ caproom and you are free to sign a new contract as a free agent before you get injured or your market value diminishes because you are not in the rotation next season.

Pretty sure this scenario has never happened, because it is not possible.

All the posts I have seen that claim that Anderson's caphit is only 15.6M next season are constructing cases that boil down to renegotiating a contract by esentially giving a player a "pay-cut" in order to increase the capspace which violates what is stated in the cbafaq Q59

 

[AZ Native]

You guys are amazing. This thread was started 3 1/2 hours ago and their are 256 replies. Does anyone on this board work? How about a quick recap for the internet challenged?

 

[Chaplin]

I always thought the buyout was a wink, wink deal based on the amount of CASH involved in stretching Anderson, not how it affects the cap number, which technically isn't cash at all.

 

[Hoop Head]

Invalidated by Q59, this is essentially a "pay cut" to increase a teams cap

If what you said was true please answer my question above. Why don't we see teams consistently buy out players to manipulate their cap? We don't because it is not how it works.

Surely a lot of players would be open to that in order to sign a new deal somwhere else and mutually agree to a buyout with a team that would gain capspace from this or luxury tax relief.

Because most players aren't leaving money on the table and buyouts generally happen in the final year of their contract. There are also restrictions as to when a contract can be renegotiated, see #59

A contract for four or more seasons can be renegotiated after the third anniversary of its signing, extension, or previous renegotiation (if the previous negotiation increased any season's salary by more than 5%). Contracts for fewer than four seasons cannot be renegotiated. A contract cannot be renegotiated between March 1 and June 30 of any year.

Anderson was past the 3rd anniversary of signing his deal. There aren't a lot of contracts out there like that which can be negotiated which is why you don't often hear about it. You typically don't hear of more than 1 renegotiation to take place in a season because of the criteria that needs to be met for that to even be a possibility.

It takes the player being willing to leave money on the table also, and most won't do that early but they do in a buyout. That is basically what Anderson did, he set his buyout number early.

If a player is bought out prior to the final year then there is the possibility that the guaranteed amount could be renegotiated but only to a certain extent as well, which is detailed in #63 & #66. So there is a lot of things that need to align to allow renegotiating to even happen. Anderson's contract happened to meet that criteria and he was willing to work with the Suns & Rockets to get the deal done.

There is a reason that you are the only person making the claim that the Suns, and now the Heat, will be on the hook for the entire $21 million because that isn't happening unless the Heat decide to retain him, and at his salary the odds of that happening are incredibly slim.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

To me. the only explanation for what happened last summer was a mutual option. I am glad to be proven wrong though. If Slin can prove the cap hit would have been $21 million even if Anderson was released and paid his $15.6 million guarantee, go for it. I would love to see it.

I am sure Miami will do the same thing so we will get to see it next year.

 

[Folster]

Team A has 40M$ caproom and a player B on the cap next season with 10M$ and 1 year left

Team A says to B hey you are not in our plans for next season anymore and we need more capspace, how about we re-negotiate your guaranteed money to 5M$ and buy you out? We get to 45M$ caproom and you are free to sign a new contract as a free agent before you get injured or your market value diminishes because you are not in the rotation next season.

Pretty sure this scenario has never happened, because it is not possible.

All the posts I have seen that claim that Anderson's caphit is only 15.6M next season are constructing cases that boil down to renegotiating a contract by esentially giving a player a "pay-cut" in order to increase the capspace which violates what is stated in the cbafaq Q59

So player B gives back 5 million that is guaranteed, to the team to be a free agent a few months early when no teams have cap space in the middle of the season?

 

[Chaplin]

Because most players aren't leaving money on the table and buyouts generally happen in the final year of their contract. There are also restrictions as to when a contract can be renegotiated, see #59



Anderson was past the 3rd anniversary of signing his deal. There aren't a lot of contracts out there like that which can be negotiated which is why you don't often hear about it. You typically don't hear of more than 1 renegotiation to take place in a season because of the criteria that needs to be met for that to even be a possibility.

It takes the player being willing to leave money on the table also, and most won't do that early but they do in a buyout. That is basically what Anderson did, he set his buyout number early.

If a player is bought out prior to the final year then there is the possibility that the guaranteed amount could be renegotiated but only to a certain extent as well, which is detailed in #63 & #66. So there is a lot of things that need to align to allow renegotiating to even happen. Anderson's contract happened to meet that criteria and he was willing to work with the Suns & Rockets to get the deal done.

There is a reason that you are the only person making the claim that the Suns, and now the Heat, will be on the hook for the entire $21 million because that isn't happening unless the Heat decide to retain him, and at his salary the odds of that happening are incredibly slim.

We're talking about the amount on the cap vs the amount of cash actually paid out. They are not one and the same.

 

[Mainstreet]

Here is a link to the story on the Anderson trade for those still interested.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...e-ryan-anderson-deanthony-melton-phoenix-suns

 

[SunsTzu]

15.6 mil is what Anderson will cost towards the cap if waived prior to the guarantee date, anyone wanting to defend the trade should pivot away from potential cost/savings analysis.

Ultimately it's a difference of roughly 1.2mil in stretching Johnson instead of Anderson which I really doubt would be a major impediment in FA. Johnson can at least be a rotation player if there isn't a need to stretch him.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Ryan was owed $21m for 2019-2020 before last summer. There was no discount for a team buyout. So obviously what Ryan Anderson had was a player option for his last year. I would assume players can choose renegotiate their options in lots of ways since they can also choose to just walk away. That is what section 60 is about.

 

[slinslin]

Because most players aren't leaving money on the table and buyouts generally happen in the final year of their contract. There are also restrictions as to when a contract can be renegotiated, see #59



Anderson was past the 3rd anniversary of signing his deal. There aren't a lot of contracts out there like that which can be negotiated which is why you don't often hear about it. You typically don't hear of more than 1 renegotiation to take place in a season because of the criteria that needs to be met for that to even be a possibility.

It takes the player being willing to leave money on the table also, and most won't do that early but they do in a buyout. That is basically what Anderson did, he set his buyout number early.

If a player is bought out prior to the final year then there is the possibility that the guaranteed amount could be renegotiated but only to a certain extent as well, which is detailed in #63 & #66. So there is a lot of things that need to align to allow renegotiating to even happen. Anderson's contract happened to meet that criteria and he was willing to work with the Suns & Rockets to get the deal done.

There is a reason that you are the only person making the claim that the Suns, and now the Heat, will be on the hook for the entire $21 million because that isn't happening unless the Heat decide to retain him, and at his salary the odds of that happening are incredibly slim.

Again everything you said is invalidated by what Q59 states.

You are trying to use the 63 and 66 to renegotiate a "pay cut" in order to increase cap space which is not possible as per Q59 it is only possible to raise a players salary by re-negotiating.

Because most players aren't leaving money on the table

Happens all the time that players take reduced buyouts to go to a team where they want to be and sign a new contract.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Team A has 40M$ caproom and a player B on the cap next season with 10M$ and 1 year left

Team A says to B hey you are not in our plans for next season anymore and we need more capspace, how about we re-negotiate your guaranteed money to 5M$ and buy you out? We get to 45M$ caproom and you are free to sign a new contract as a free agent before you get injured or your market value diminishes because you are not in the rotation next season.

Pretty sure this scenario has never happened, because it is not possible.

All the posts I have seen that claim that Anderson's caphit is only 15.6M next season are constructing cases that boil down to renegotiating a contract by esentially giving a player a "pay-cut" in order to increase the capspace which violates what is stated in the cbafaq Q59

Doesnt apply. Its a player option year.

Basically, the Suns ( or now Miami) could PAY Ryan Anderson to NOT exercise his option. In that case, only what the team pays counts against the cap, since NOT exercising the option in effect ends the previous contract.

 

[slinslin]

Because most players aren't leaving money on the table and buyouts generally happen in the final year of their contract. There are also restrictions as to when a contract can be renegotiated, see #59



Anderson was past the 3rd anniversary of signing his deal. There aren't a lot of contracts out there like that which can be negotiated which is why you don't often hear about it. You typically don't hear of more than 1 renegotiation to take place in a season because of the criteria that needs to be met for that to even be a possibility.

Anderson's contract could have been re-negotiated to INCREASE his salary, yes.

Your quote is leaving out the next sentence

A contract for four or more seasons can be renegotiated after the third anniversary of its signing, extension, or previous renegotiation (if the previous negotiation increased any season's salary by more than 5%). Contracts for fewer than four seasons cannot be renegotiated. A contract cannot be renegotiated between March 1 and June 30 of any year.

Only teams under the cap can renegotiate a contract, and the salary in the then-current season can be increased only to the extent that the team has room under the cap (and cannot increase the player's salary beyond the maximum salary). A renegotiation can only be used to provide a salary increase -- players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create more cap room for the team.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Anderson's contract could have been re-negotiated to INCREASE his salary, yes.

Your quote is leaving out the next sentence

Slin. I am done arguing this. I don't care about it that much. You are just using an inapplicable part of the CBA. Anderson had a player option year. He agreed to take $15.6 million to NOT exercise his option. In that case, only the $15.6 million applies to the cap. Its pretty simple actually.

 

[slinslin]

Slin. I am done arguing this. I don't care about it that much. You are just using an inapplicable part of the CBA. Anderson had a player option year. He agreed to take $15.6 million to NOT exercise his option. In that case, only the $15.6 million applies to the cap. Its pretty simple actually.

I don't know what you are talking about, your posts are completely off topic about what we are actually arguing.

He agreed to take $15.6 million to NOT exercise his option. In that case, only the $15.6 million applies to the cap. Its pretty simple actually

Now this we can all agree on is definitely NOT what happened.

I am pretty damn sure that this not only is not possible but also would be a clear violation of the CBA on the same level as Minnesota signing an under the table agreement with Joe Smith to re-sign him to a bigger contract later.

You defintitely can't pay a player to not exercise a player option.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Really, this feels to me pretty much like the Anderson/Melton trade. Lots of folks tried to see that as having some kind of upside, particularly that Anderson was going to be some kind of significant contributor. We know how that turned out. Now of course it's not a huge disaster in that we aren't apparently giving up anything of value. But let's not get all Pollyanna here and think this is doing anything other than adding to the Suns' rich recent legacy of NBA journeymen, has-beens, and never-weres passing through.

I'm okay with not going "all Pollyanna here" but have you nothing to say to the "sky is falling" fans on this trade? Just like the Melton trade, most of the positive comments on Tyler here have been to counter the argument that this is some kind of grossly incompetent move when it likely is just another who cares deal that matters mostly to the bean counters.

 

[SunsTzu]

Seems the part confusing people is the belief that a buyout is the same a renegotiating for a lower amount, it's not. The renegotiation is referring to retaining an existing player at a lower amount than their current contract. For example the Suns would not have been able to pay Anderson a salary lower than 21mil next year and keep him on the roster, but both sides can agree to a buyout price which will effectively terminate the contract(not renegotiate), while also prohibiting the player from being on the team during the length of the terminated contract(to prevent an end around on the whole renegotiating thing).

If you don't believe me try playing with http://www.shamsports.com/capulator and see what happens when you buyout/stretch. And if you think Shams is wrong then there certainly isn't anyone here who will be able to convince you.

 

[Hoop Head]

We're talking about the amount on the cap vs the amount of cash actually paid out. They are not one and the same.

I get that. The cap hit would be the guaranteed amount, $16m in this instance. The guaranteed salary in this case is what the cap hit would be, if he's not stretched. If he makes it to the opening day roster then he's guaranteed the full $21 million on his contract but if he doesn't he only gets $16m. The cap hit would be the amount that's guaranteed when he's waived/released/bought out/or however you want to say it. The cap hit changes depending on the guaranteed total, it depends on when it happens but it will likely happen when the guarantee is the lowest, so next offseason the Heat will waive him and he'll be paid $16m. I sent a tweet to Larry Coon, I hope he replies because he wrote the CBA FAQ and does answer questions on twitter occasionally. I didn't ask for the stretched amount or get into buyouts. It was basically "What would the cap hit be? Would it be the guaranteed amount or the total amount which includes the non-guaranteed money." I'm 99% sure it's the guaranteed amount.

 

[devilalum]

I'll also point out that Johnson can fit nicely in the defensive unit the Suns like to play with the three wings, and Holmes.

They like to play it but should they play it?

THEY SUCK!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk