Update on Clancy/Brown

[kerouac9]

Wells signed a 5 year 17.6 million contract when we matched Buffalo's offer. The bonus was 5 so that makes his average salary around 2.5? Since we matched Buffalo not our own, the salary is probably not straight across the board as we usually do but is it really only 1 million now in the 2nd year of the deal? I'm assuming it's much closer to 2 million which puts his caphit above Brown I thought but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not advocating cutting Brown by the way I'm saying if we're really telling him to take a paycut because he's a backup in THIS system, we should cut him. I don't think we're really telling him that, we're telling him we need caproom and since we're demoting you, we're asking you for the caproom.

I'd like to keep both guys but with Clancy it's clear he's not taking a paycut, and I kind of doubt Brown will agree to it either.

You should do like me and bookmark Joeshmo's Salary Cap Spreadsheet. According to him, Urban is right. Wells only carries a cap charge of $1.6 million this season.

What's weird is that Kendrick Clancy is making $1.3 million less than Oliver Ross. If Ross really is going to be a backup, then why are we getting rid of Clancy and not asking Ross to take a pay cut? He's making $2.8 in salary alone next season.

It's ridiculous that Al Johnson is the 3rd highest-compensated player on this team.

 

[Russ Smith]

You should do like me and bookmark Joeshmo's Salary Cap Spreadsheet. According to him, Urban is right. Wells only carries a cap charge of $1.6 million this season.

What's weird is that Kendrick Clancy is making $1.3 million less than Oliver Ross. If Ross really is going to be a backup, then why are we getting rid of Clancy and not asking Ross to take a pay cut? He's making $2.8 in salary alone next season.

It's ridiculous that Al Johnson is the 3rd highest-compensated player on this team.

So now I'm confused, yesterday I googled up the Wells signing because I couldn't offhand remember it and 5 different sources said the same numbers 5 years 17.6 million with a 5 million bonus. Even if we signed him early enough to spread that bonus over 6 years there's no way his bonus counts only 600K which is on Joe's sheet? Joe usually has this stuff right so what am I missing?

Buffalo clearly backloaded that offer figuring we wouldn't match it?

Ross is the starter at Tackle right now, we all assume he'll eventually back up Levi Brown. So you're right in a sense it's an almost identical comparison to Branch and Clancy. Clancy is the starter, but we're assuming at some point Branch or Watson replace him. So why not ask Ross to take a paycut too afterall people keep saying this is all about guys who are making starter money but won't start?

 

[Redheart]

Please explain how this is true.

My thoughts are based on the following quotes:

Del Duca emphasized that there were no hard feelings and that he appreciated the Cardinals releasing Clancy early rather than waiting until later this off-season.

The player's agent notes his appreciation in how the Cardinal's FO handled it; this from the party asked to take a pay-cut or leave. This kind of FO behavior is noticed by free agents; how will the organization treat me if it doesn't work out or things change?.

In the team's new 3-4 defensive alignment, coaches wanted a larger nose tackle than Clancy, who is 6 feet 1 and 305 pounds. Clancy started 11 games last year, but he is in danger of losing his job to either Alan Branch, the second-round pick out of Michigan, or Gabe Watson, a fourth-round pick out of Michigan a year ago. Each weighs more than 330 pounds.
Brown, who started 12 games at guard last year, lost his starting job this year to Reggie Wells.
The moves would create more room under the salary cap, although that's not believed to be the main motivation for asking Brown and Clancy to take pay cuts.

The moves would not seem to be a surprise. Neither player will be starting, and the Cardinals no longer want to pay them like starters.
The selection of these players appears to be based on inputs from the coaching staff AFTER evaluation of the years previous performance and the off-season workouts and . The message from the coaching staff: "these guys are not our starters, we have depth, we need to pay for performance". Further, it sounds like the FO had their eye on these players all along, yes, go ahead and say it, they had a plan.

The Cardinals are about $2 million under the $109 million salary cap and need to create room to sign their top draft picks. If Clancy is released, the club would save about $750,000 in cap space.
The Cardinals wouldn't have to pay Clancy his salary, but they must account for his signing bonus under the cap. Because he was released after June 1, the team would be able to split the remaining $1.5 million of signing bonus between the next two years.
Brown is due to make $2.35 million this season. Accounting for the remaining portion of his signing bonus over the next two years, the Cardinals would save about $1.6 million of cap space this year.

By doing this after June, the FO is able to spread cap hits for cutting these players over this year and next.
They Cardinals MO (last several years) has been to maximize cap space for the following year, this gives them the maximum $ to chase a free-agent gem and some risk protection if the salary cap doesn't keep jumping up like it has the last couple of years. Remember how close most of the league teams were to cap hell last year? It took a special NFL delay to work out the player deal and increase the overall cap. If that had not occured, and it was a close thing, the Cardinals would have been amoung the few in great shape to pick up great deals on the best in FA's.
If the Cardinals didn't have bad luck...

If the Cardinals wanted to keep either Brown or Clancy, they could have structured free-agent contracts differently earlier this year.
For instance, center Al Johnson, who was signed this spring, has a cap figure of $7 million, because the team gave him a roster bonus instead of a signing bonus. If he had been given a signing bonus, the Cardinals could have saved about $2.6 million in cap space.

Again, the plan. And again, the philosophy to maximize your cap flexibility for the following year; I think this is done with thought and purpose; if the FO feels they are ready for the run, I think they will reverse this philosophy and move to "mortgage the future".

 

[kerouac9]

So now I'm confused, yesterday I googled up the Wells signing because I couldn't offhand remember it and 5 different sources said the same numbers 5 years 17.6 million with a 5 million bonus. Even if we signed him early enough to spread that bonus over 6 years there's no way his bonus counts only 600K which is on Joe's sheet? Joe usually has this stuff right so what am I missing?

Buffalo clearly backloaded that offer figuring we wouldn't match it?

Ross is the starter at Tackle right now, we all assume he'll eventually back up Levi Brown. So you're right in a sense it's an almost identical comparison to Branch and Clancy. Clancy is the starter, but we're assuming at some point Branch or Watson replace him. So why not ask Ross to take a paycut too afterall people keep saying this is all about guys who are making starter money but won't start?

I don't know. I found this story from the EVT saying that Wells signed a 5-year, $12.5 million contract. This story mentions a $3 million signing bonus and a $2 million roster bonus (which would have already come off the books). Maybe that's where you're getting the $5 million bonus number from?

I don't see why we're not letting 'Femi go out and try and find a job. I feel bad for the guy if he's really not going to make the roster. We have all those UDFA fullbacks, and we heard a lot about how he doesn't fit the scheme.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I don't know. I found this story from the EVT saying that Wells signed a 5-year, $12.5 million contract. This story mentions a $3 million signing bonus and a $2 million roster bonus (which would have already come off the books). Maybe that's where you're getting the $5 million bonus number from?

I don't see why we're not letting 'Femi go out and try and find a job. I feel bad for the guy if he's really not going to make the roster. We have all those UDFA fullbacks, and we heard a lot about how he doesn't fit the scheme.

Agreed.

Another name to throw on the restructuring pile is Kurt Warner.

Why not talk to him about moving some money around ?

 

[kerouac9]

My thoughts are based on the following quotes:


The player's agent notes his appreciation in how the Cardinal's FO handled it; this from the party asked to take a pay-cut or leave. This kind of FO behavior is noticed by free agents; how will the organization treat me if it doesn't work out or things change?.

The moves would not seem to be a surprise. Neither player will be starting, and the Cardinals no longer want to pay them like starters.
The selection of these players appears to be based on inputs from the coaching staff AFTER evaluation of the years previous performance and the off-season workouts and . The message from the coaching staff: "these guys are not our starters, we have depth, we need to pay for performance". Further, it sounds like the FO had their eye on these players all along, yes, go ahead and say it, they had a plan.

By doing this after June, the FO is able to spread cap hits for cutting these players over this year and next.
They Cardinals MO (last several years) has been to maximize cap space for the following year, this gives them the maximum $ to chase a free-agent gem and some risk protection if the salary cap doesn't keep jumping up like it has the last couple of years. Remember how close most of the league teams were to cap hell last year? It took a special NFL delay to work out the player deal and increase the overall cap. If that had not occured, and it was a close thing, the Cardinals would have been amoung the few in great shape to pick up great deals on the best in FA's.
If the Cardinals didn't have bad luck...

Again, the plan. And again, the philosophy to maximize your cap flexibility for the following year; I think this is done with thought and purpose; if the FO feels they are ready for the run, I think they will reverse this philosophy and move to "mortgage the future".

You can't have it both ways, RH. They're not helping cap flexibility next year (which they'd be hurting by releasing these players now because they have bonuses that will spread into next year). Clancy is a starter right now; no one's taken his job. Milford Brown wasn't even given a chance to maintain his starting position.

Either their previous performance doesn't matter (because we're changing systems) or it does (which doesn't make sense because Clancy and Brown both played well last season). You choose one.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to see the best possible team on the field this year. None of that has to do with cap flexibility in 2007. For that matter, what about competition? I thought competition makes everyone better. Wouldn't it be better to bring this guys to camp to compete?

 

[Redheart]

You can't have it both ways, RH. They're not helping cap flexibility next year (which they'd be hurting by releasing these players now because they have bonuses that will spread into next year). Clancy is a starter right now; no one's taken his job. Milford Brown wasn't even given a chance to maintain his starting position.

Either their previous performance doesn't matter (because we're changing systems) or it does (which doesn't make sense because Clancy and Brown both played well last season). You choose one.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to see the best possible team on the field this year. None of that has to do with cap flexibility in 2007. For that matter, what about competition? I thought competition makes everyone better. Wouldn't it be better to bring this guys to camp to compete?

I think you have to look at it both ways; maximize next years cap with the condition you met this years cap requirement. Gathering talent and having to let some it go is the ideal; unless you want to wait for some other team's droppings.

I think there was a fit problem and I think the previous year's performance and off-season work-out performance mattered, it appears that the head coaching staff may not agree with "both played well last season" or the staff thinks they have better staring options.

I think there is plenty of competition remaining for the starting job, even without C & B.

 

[jefftheshark]

This is a great discussion guys, very good points being made by both sides of the debate.

IMHO, the situation is similar to when Berry was brought in to replace Pace. Denny said something to effect that "anytime you have to bring in someone from the outside to improve the position that you currently fill, you had better be nervous". That we brought in players that can play guard & DT in both FA and the draft should make all the veterans nervous.

I am guessing that when Levi Brown eventually replaces Ross, that the whole line will either be re-shuffled (shudder), or more likely, Ross will be given the M. Brown treatment. It just isn't the right time for Ross to take his turn in the box.

The Shark

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't know. I found this story from the EVT saying that Wells signed a 5-year, $12.5 million contract. This story mentions a $3 million signing bonus and a $2 million roster bonus (which would have already come off the books). Maybe that's where you're getting the $5 million bonus number from?

I don't see why we're not letting 'Femi go out and try and find a job. I feel bad for the guy if he's really not going to make the roster. We have all those UDFA fullbacks, and we heard a lot about how he doesn't fit the scheme.

I guess the 17.6 number must be bad. I guess whoever printed it first had it wrong and it got picked up by several others.

Thanks

 

[joeshmo]

After some thought I am fine with cutting Milford right now, because he does give some pretty good cap savings this year, he is making more then a backup OG should be making, and he was already beaten out of a starting job. I would still like him for depth but oh well.

But that is the opposite of Clancy. Clancy is not making starting money, he is making solid NT backup money, he doesnt offer any more cap savings then a cutting of Femi or Ralph Brown would, and Clancy even as of today is still running with the starting Defense in this week practices. Branch and Watson have not beaten him out of a job yet.

I dont see how Femi is getting a pass into training camp when he seems to fit in even less then Clancy or Brown but could save similar amounts of cap space.

Also this will not be the end of it. We can only carry 83 players into training camp so as we sign each of our draft picks and they are officially added to the 83 amount it will be preceeded by a cut to make room.

We also still need room for practice squad roster, injuries, possible in season extensions, and we are still rumored to be looking for more TE competition. We could see a couple more cuts that will be debated on this board in the coming months.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

After some thought I am fine with cutting Milford right now, because he does give some pretty good cap savings this year, he is making more then a backup OG should be making, and he was already beaten out of a starting job. I would still like him for depth but oh well.

But that is the opposite of Clancy. Clancy is not making starting money, he is making solid NT backup money, he doesnt offer any more cap savings then a cutting of Femi or Ralph Brown would, and Clancy even as of today is still running with the starting Defense in this week practices. Branch and Watson have not beaten him out of a job yet.

I dont see how Femi is getting a pass into training camp when he seems to fit in even less then Clancy or Brown but could save similar amounts of cap space.

Also this will not be the end of it. We can only carry 83 players into training camp so as we sign each of our draft picks and they are officially added to the 83 amount it will be preceeded by a cut to make room.

We also still need room for practice squad roster, injuries, possible in season extensions, and we are still rumored to be looking for more TE competition. We could see a couple more cuts that will be debated on this board in the coming months.

I am not find with cutting Milford for cap space when our line is still atricious, and he is the best run blocking LG we have on the roster. For a team wanting to pound the football, it makes no sense.

Femi being cut, or Warner restructuring is what the team should be looking at.

 

[Redheart]

Brown, Clancy skip practice
Kent Somers
Jun. 5, 2007 10:45 AM

Guard Milford Brown and nose tackle Kendrick Clancy did not attend voluntary practice Tuesday, a day after the team asked them to take pay cuts.

Clancy refused the request, according to his agent, and it's assumed that Brown did also. Both players signed with the team as free agents last year, but were in jeopardy of losing their jobs. The team is expected to release both players.

Clancy was due to make $1.5 million in salary this year, and Brown was to make $2.35 million.

Clancy's place with the starting unit was taken by Gabe Watson, a fourth-round pick last year. Alan Branch, a second-round pick this year, is pushing Watson for the job.

Brown, a starting guard last year, lost his job to Reggie Wells, who moved from tackle.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Brown, Clancy skip practice
Kent Somers
Jun. 5, 2007 10:45 AM

Guard Milford Brown and nose tackle Kendrick Clancy did not attend voluntary practice Tuesday, a day after the team asked them to take pay cuts.

Clancy refused the request, according to his agent, and it's assumed that Brown did also. Both players signed with the team as free agents last year, but were in jeopardy of losing their jobs. The team is expected to release both players.

Clancy was due to make $1.5 million in salary this year, and Brown was to make $2.35 million.

Clancy's place with the starting unit was taken by Gabe Watson, a fourth-round pick last year. Alan Branch, a second-round pick this year, is pushing Watson for the job.

Brown, a starting guard last year, lost his job to Reggie Wells, who moved from tackle.

That answers that.

Too bad. As you can see from my posts I agree with the Cardinals in the fact these two are the players to be talking to about restructuring their contracts. That being said I like both players and was hoping an agreement could be made. I like both players, especially Clancy who would have made a better DE than NT.

At least for Milford Brown and Clancy they should be signed shortly after being released.

 

[Shogun]

I hope they keep Clancy on the team. He was arguably our best lineman last year. I still see him as a starter on this team. Cutting him would be silly.

As much as I like Milford, it's looking like he has no future here. I'd be fine with letting him go.

Co-sign what joeshmo said.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I think Clancy was the most overrated player on our defense last year. I just didn't see much from him and I'm not sure what others saw in him.

I don't see him as a starting NT in this new system. I for one won't cry if he is cut.

 

[Redheart]

It's official: Clancy, Brown cut
Darren Urban
Cardinals coach Ken Whisenhunt confirmed after today's organized team activity that the team was "in the process" of released defensive tackle Kendrick Clancy and guard Milford Brown after both declined to take pay cuts.

Whisenhunt said he wanted to make sure the players had a chance to hook on with another team and that he didn't want roster decisions in training camp to come down to money. Both players were going to be backups despite starter's salaries. Whisenhunt said the team wanted to keep both players, but not at their salaries.

Whisenhunt also stressed the salary cap had nothing to do with the move.

With Milford Brown gone, undrafted rookie Brian Johnson was working as second-string guard along with Elton Brown. Gabe Watson has moved into Clancy's starting nose tackle role.

 

[Redheart]

Kent Somers.

Reach Somers at [email protected].

It's official
06/05/2007 12:23 PM

Coach Ken Whisenhunt confirmed that nose tackle Kendrick Clancy and guard Milford Brown refused the team's request to "restructure" their contracts and will soon be released.

Whisenhunt talked to both players on Monday and met with them again this morning.

"I didn't want it to come down to a situation in training camp where we had to make a decision about these guys based on the money," Whisenhunt. "Also, if they didn't want to restructure, I wanted to give them the opportunity to get on somewhere else. They decided they didn't to restructure, so I respect them."

These kinds of changes come with a change in coaching, Whisenhunt said. "We're doing some things differently offensively and defensively. Out of respect to Kendrick and Milford, I didn't want it to come down to a situation at the last cut and have to make a decision at that point."

 

[dreamcastrocks]

********.

So much for adding depth to both lines.

 

[Russ Smith]

Whisenhunt specifically said restructure, not take paycut, did he mean to or is did he misspeak?

Oh well, Brian Johnson was a pretty good replacement in AC/DC maybe he'll
be just fine at guard now too?

 

[Mitch]

I think the Cardinals have handled these players with class. They gave them the option to restructure and the time frame that would allow them to sign with other teams. Kudos to management on this one!

What we do not know is what has gone on behind the scenes. Whiz was right in saying that Brown and Clancy weren't as strong a fit in the new schemes. Rather than speculate further, maybe it's best to leave it at that.

I think it's surprising that Clancy couldn't be traded back to the Giants who have been bemoaning his loss since he left (and still haven't quite addressed their needs at NT). Perhaps the Giants lost interest out of pride...seeing as they were surprised that Clancy signed so quickly with the Cardinals when they thought they were in a great position to re-up with him.

As for Milford...the surprise here is that he didn't choose to restructure his contract...he would have most likely still made out far better off financially than signing for the veteran minimum elsewhere (if he thinks he's getting more than that, especially this time of year, he isn't being realistic). Plus, one would think that he would look at the Cards' options at LG and still believe he could win the starting job once the hitting starts.

Both players did not hit the ground running last year...both were slow starters, nagged by injuries...Brown did emerge as a solid player down the stretch and did help improve the much beleaguered running game. Clancy, however, never seemed quite right...really didn't look like the player he was when playing for the Giants.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I am sure teams will have interest in both players..... why not try and trade them for a happy meal and a bag of chips? Anything is better than nothing.

 

[azsouthendzone]

We are talking Milford Brown and Kendrick Clancy. Milford Brown was a waste before the Cards signed him and Clancy, although servicable, is not a big enough difference maker to shed a tear. Some are acting like this is when they cut Centers. They are releasing two no names back into the FA screen on Madden. No big deal.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I am sure teams will have interest in both players..... why not try and trade them for a happy meal and a bag of chips? Anything is better than nothing.

Now we agree on something.

How about you package both players for a blocking TE ?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

We are talking Milford Brown and Kendrick Clancy. Milford Brown was a waste before the Cards signed him and Clancy, although servicable, is not a big enough difference maker to shed a tear. Some are acting like this is when they cut Centers. They are releasing two no names back into the FA screen on Madden. No big deal.

You do realize that our run defense improved when Clancy was in the lineup, right?

 

[ChandlerCard]

This sends a great message to the other players. You can be starting and then be cut. Whiz will certainly get competition if he hadn't already. At this early stage I'm inclined to trust Whiz, who gave these guys a chance to make an impact or earn a solid spot. But I'm sure the front office was pushing for some action to free up cap room. A Femi cut will be more noticed by the public, so I'm not surprised his cut will be positioned in a more media-friendly way. But it will come, IMHO.