Utah Fans talk about Raja

[F-Dog]

In honor of George's thread (which I'll contribute to later, I'm sure), I went through two Jazz MBs, looking for comments on Raja Bell.

As you might imagine, Jazz fans aren't in the best frame of mind to give Raja a lot of praise, but some of the comments were still interesting.

(Part of a long post comparing Bell and Giricek)

In 2004-05, when (Gordon Giricek) played more inconsistently, he still outperformed Bell. He played 36% of the total available minutes at SG and had a PER of 13.7 and an opponents' PER of 16.6, for a net PER differential of a negative 2.9. By comparison, Bell played 43% of the total available minutes at SG and had a PER of 12.8 and an opponents' PER of 16.9, for a net PER differential of a negative 4.1.

Looking more closely at the team's performance at the defensive end, the Jazz have consistently held their opponents to fewer points per 100 possessions with GG on the court than when he is off the court, but consistently give up more points per 100 possessions when Bell is on the court than when he is off the court. Yes, Bell outwardly exhibits a much more aggressive attitude than GG, but oftentimes that aggression is his biggest down fall. Bell has averaged a whopping 5.8 fouls per 48 minutes in his career while GG has averaged 3.8. As the numbers demonstrated last season, foul trouble was one of the Jazz's biggest downfalls, and it doesn't help when your shooting guard is sending his counterpart to the free throw line far too often.

I'm consistently flabbergasted that people refuse to accept the assessment of the Jazz coaching staff that Bell is the best on the ball defender on the team. Maybe they're all wrong and you're right. Maybe Giri is the better player, maybe he plays within the offense, maybe the team plays better with him on the court. But the numbers are certainly not as conclusive as you make them out to be, and I'm going to give the opinion of the Jazz coaching staff its due respect.

Dang straight it is a good thing. Bell is a ball hog that gave Sloan a reason to bench GG, a better player, because he liked Bell attitude on the court. Having Bell gone also gives Sloan reason to play Synder more, who should have a dang good year next year. I am totally happy right now.

now.. you can knock Bell for some things, but seriously, "can't shoot" isn't one of them. If you're still clinging onto the stereotype of him being just a defensive stopper, you need to stop now. He shot 40% from the 3 point line and 45% from the field. That's better than GG. I'm not claiming that Bell's a better shooter just because of that, but if you are saying Bell can't shoot, then GG sure as hell can't shoot any better.

Also.. Ballhog? Please.

My husband and I talked to Raja's wife while getting my Jazz cookbook signed at the Stockton jersey retirement game. We mentioned that we live in Dallas and were fans of Raja. She told us how much she loved living in Dallas. Then, she kind of stopped and said that she likes living in Utah, too. It was almost as if she had realized that she raved a little too much about another city. Maybe she didn't really like Utah that much. I've been in denial and tried not to think of it that way, but that's the impression I got. She seems like a really great person, though. She was very friendly and seemed to enjoy talking with us.

(Raja) was a great transitional player while we built up a good core of players. But If your captain isn't one of your best players, eventually nobody will want to follow him. His departure is a great opportunity for AK/Booze/Memo to start emerging as the leaders we're going to need them to be.

I agree that he's not going to do as well in PHX. Our system is made for guys like him (hard working, gritty defenders). But best wishes to him anyways.

think my anger is shifting from Bell to the Jazz front office for not trying harder. Maybe he would have gone anyway, but waiting to call him at mid morning sure doesn't seem like they are anxious to keep him.

I love Bell and I am so sad that he won't be on the Jazz next season. He was the most fun player to watch last season. (Kiri is fun to watch but he was out with injuries.)

Maybe Phoenix knows something the Jazz don't. They picked up Nash and it worked out great for them. They must see a lot in Bell to pursue him so aggressively.

We can't blame him for leaving. We would have been fools to match that offer with promising young shooting guards in Snyder and Miles, and I suspect Bell knew we wouldn't.

Once again, Phoenix overpays for admitted talent. I can't wait to see this team in five years when they have a 36 year old Nash and a 33 year old Bell taking up the lion's share of their payroll.

Was Bell really a good leader? Don't leaders have followers? He sure was vocal yelling at guys on the floor and in the press, but was anyone listening? Following? Bell's leadership skills went underserved because he couldn't get it done on the court, just with his mouth.

(Before FA began) I voted Raja off the island. He really irritated me last year and the only game I attended I wanted to run down on the floor and choke him for the stupid plays he was making. Seriously, I will never understand what the Jazz see in him. Attitude, fire, toughness....yeah yeah yeah, the dude is just not a very good basketball player.

Raja Bell is stealing money from the Phoenix Suns! That's fine though, let them take his overrated defense, inconsistant jumpshot, and poor finishing on the fastbreak!

I actually think raja will be a pretty good play with the Suns, a role player, but no too bad of one. All he needs to do is hit a 3 which he can do and play a little defense. He'll be fine, but I agree they paid too much for him.

I'll miss Raja, but don't think he's worth spending our MLE on. But at least he appeared to give a *beep* last year, which is something that can't be said for much of the roster last year.

For all you that say raja sucked just look at what just happened. The team with the best record last year was at his house at midnight to sign him to the MLE before anyone else. Great move Suns

I HATE to see raja go.

They were fooled the same way the teams that signed former jazzmen Bryon Russell, Howard Eisley, Shandon Anderson, Greg Ostertag, etc were fooled.

I really liked Raja the first year, was sort of indifferent last year (heh, in general), but I'm still kind of sad to see Raja go.

Raja is good at saying the correct things, but his actions don't match his words.

I would have liked to have Raja Bell back on the team, no question about that. For all the jokes that were made about him playing hard, Sloan said the same in all seriousness. I know people like Giri, but it was Gordie, who said that Bell in the team’s best on the ball defender. Bell is the guy who drew charges and played tough basketball that the Jazz need. And even his shooting and scoring was good last year. He earned more minutes and a starting job over other SGs on the roster. It hurts to lose our top SG, who can actually play defense, and reality it, we probably cannot replace him because we need mid-level money to bring in a good veteran PG, which KOC said (and rightfully so) is a priority.

Sounds like he has just been telling the Jazz fans what they want to hear.

a skill he deftly honed in numerous press conferences this past year. basically parrotting anything that came out of sloan's mouth, deflecting blame from himself to his teammates. just like a good captain should.

Anybody want to have a pool as to when the first article hits the Phoenix papers commenting on Raja's lack of playing time, poor shooting, and overrated defensive capabilites?

I am betting between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

I think you're right on the money in terms of the time frame, so we'll need to pick an exact date and whoever is closer, wins. I say 12/7/05.

Headline: Bell Frustrated: D'Antoni Says Defense and Shot Selection Are Main Factors for Lack of PT.

Great news!! I actually liked Bell as a backup, but unfortunatelly Sloan somehow was convinced that he was starter material.

Bell is a good help defender, a streaky shooter and the most important is that he is a subpar 1on1 defender and not a good athlete. People just tend to forget that a good deal of his opponents had career highs on him. I don't remember one match where he played lock down defense on his opponent.

If you believe that, then this still isn't Jerry just making a "mistake" and simply overvaluing a player.

Jerry Sloan is literally in love with Raja Bell. He has the same platonic connection with Raja as one would with family or a loved one. Again, I don't understand how one can respect Sloan as a coach and at the same time have complete, 100%, unadultered hate for Raja.

I liked Bell and his toughness, except I think he overdid it at times (like yelling at AK). Raja had a full season as the starter and we know exactly what he can do - he's a quality backup, nothing more. I'm glad we didn't break the bank to resign him. Still, we could have given him as much $ as PHO by using the early-Bird exception. So either he really wanted to play with Nash or KOC told his agent that he should probably look elsewhere.

I did want to point out one thing that I have noticed. Bell has the reputation (at least with Utah fans) of being a great defender and not that great of a shooter. Giri has the rep of a great shooter, with crappy D. The more I watched the Jazz last year, the more I thought less of each man's so-called "Strengths" and higher of each man's so-called "Weaknesses". Did anyone else notice this?

I have mixed feelings about this news. I really liked Raja as a backup, but I got a bit tired of him as a starter and captain. If we keep them, I will be interested to see how good Giri and Snyder can become if Sloan can figure out a way to work with and/or get through to them.

I tried to get a decent cross-section of the opinions. This is Jazz fans talking to other Jazz fans, so some old arguments keep getting referenced (mainly Raja vs. Giricek).

 

[B Rad]

Great Post F-Dog. I can see that there's numerous opinions on Bell, and what he'll bring.

I hope he really does bring the aggression, and the man defense they speak of. That would be a great addition to the Suns defense, and work out well, I believe.

 

[George O'Brien]

Tha Jazz weren't very good last year and it sounds like some people blamed Bell. Also, I sense more than a hint of a kind of a Penny/JJ thing with Bell and Giricek.

I was intrigued by the writer who claimed Bell isn't that athletic when every article I've read suggests he is vastly quicker than Q. He may not be a leaper, but defense is gnerally about quickness rather than jumping.

 

[sunsfn]

If Nash truely did tell the suns Bell would be a good player to have, then that is all I need to hear.

We will all be watching to see how he does, but he comes highly regarded at this point.

 

[cardsunsfan]

The one thing I'm a little worried about is that even though he played against the opponents toughest players often times those plays still did as well or better than their shooting averages most of the time...that doesn't make feel like he's that great of a defender...

 

[Folster]

The one thing I'm a little worried about is that even though he played against the opponents toughest players often times those plays still did as well or better than their shooting averages most of the time...that doesn't make feel like he's that great of a defender...

To be a truly great defender, defense has to be your main focus during the game. It usually takes you out of your offensive game. Bowen can focus solely on playing D because his offensive production is not needed. However, in Utah, Bell was required to carry a portion of the offensive load everynight. He won't have to do that here. All he has to do is play hardnosed defense and hit the occasional (open) outside shot or convert on the fast break both of which Nash or Amare will spoon feed him. I think/hope the coaching staff will lay out the defensive focus they expect from Bell and that Bell delivers.

 

[playstation]

To be a truly great defender, defense has to be your main focus during the game. It usually takes you out of your offensive game. Bowen can focus solely on playing D because his offensive production is not needed. However, in Utah, Bell was required to carry a portion of the offensive load everynight. He won't have to do that here. All he has to do is play hardnosed defense and hit the occasional (open) outside shot or convert on the fast break both of which Nash or Amare will spoon feed him. I think/hope the coaching staff will lay out the defensive focus they expect from Bell and that Bell delivers.

exactly.

i mean, what's bell's offensive role on our team? he is not expected to make decisions here, its just stand at the corner and run back as soon as the shot is fired. THEN, still like glue to your man. Q did half of that equation pretty good half the time. I think Bell can do the entire equation pretty good half the time, so that's an upgrade

 

[George O'Brien]

Strong defense is not always measured by how well soneone's man does, because the whole point of most offenses is to force switches.

In any case, the Suns don't need a lockdown defense to be effective, just " pretty good" because even great defenses cannot stop the Suns from scoring.

 

[cly2tw]

He may not be a leaper, but defense is gnerally about quickness rather than jumping.

True! That's why Marion is getting head-faked off his socks by the avg. SF or SG constantly, despite being one of the most "athletic" players on the planet. To play defense, you gotta have your feet down on the earth all the time unless you are sure that the opponent has committed to jumping up for shots.

 

[cly2tw]

(Part of a long post comparing Bell and Giricek)

In 2004-05, when (Gordon Giricek) played more inconsistently, he still outperformed Bell. He played 36% of the total available minutes at SG and had a PER of 13.7 and an opponents' PER of 16.6, for a net PER differential of a negative 2.9. By comparison, Bell played 43% of the total available minutes at SG and had a PER of 12.8 and an opponents' PER of 16.9, for a net PER differential of a negative 4.1.

Looking more closely at the team's performance at the defensive end, the Jazz have consistently held their opponents to fewer points per 100 possessions with GG on the court than when he is off the court, but consistently give up more points per 100 possessions when Bell is on the court than when he is off the court. Yes, Bell outwardly exhibits a much more aggressive attitude than GG, but oftentimes that aggression is his biggest down fall. Bell has averaged a whopping 5.8 fouls per 48 minutes in his career while GG has averaged 3.8. As the numbers demonstrated last season, foul trouble was one of the Jazz's biggest downfalls, and it doesn't help when your shooting guard is sending his counterpart to the free throw line far too often.

This is just hilarious. If you watch the games, you know Bell stays in front of his player as well as Bowen can. Bowen is being called for fewer fouls for grabbing because he established some reputation, while Bell is still a nobody which however will change soon. And with a weak defender like GG, teammates make more conscious effort to help him out, the defense collapes, GG's guy has to pass for others to score. Also, being a backup, you face backup formation by the opponents more often. All these don't show in stats.

I trust my own eyes and I trust Nash and the Suns, and Sloan's, judgment. Bell is not a star, but he also will not be asked to create on offense which he was forced to on last season's pathetic Jazz's team.

 

[elindholm]

So in other words, Bell's inferior numbers prove that he is a better defender?

 

[PhxGametime]

Gordan Giricek?


Put in any Suns/Jazz game and 1 player sticks out, that can't play defense, and it's probably not Bell lol.

 

[George O'Brien]

Gordan Giricek went from 24.2 minutes a game for the Jazz in 2003-04 to 20.5 minutes. In the same period, Bell went from 24.6 minutes to 28.4 minutes.

Both Giricek and Bell had better shooting percentages this past season, but Bell's numbers improved more.

Gordan Giricek
Utah Jazz
Position: G
Height: 6-5 Weight: 210
From : Croatia
Player file | Team stats

2004-05 Statistics
PPG 8.8
RPG 2.2
APG 1.7
SPG .57
BPG .14
FG% .448
FT% .810
3P% .362
MPG 20.5


Raja Bell
Utah Jazz
Position: G
Height: 6-5 Weight: 210
College : Florida International '99
Player file | Team stats

2004-05 Statistics
PPG 12.3
RPG 3.2
APG 1.4
SPG .70
BPG .13
FG% .454
FT% .747
3P% .403
MPG 28.4

It is easy to see why Sloan may have lost faith in Giricek

Hoopshype Giricek :

Never met a shot he didn't like... Very selfish... Good shooting skills... Not afraid of going to the hole... Creates his own shot... Very dynamic...
Should play some defense.

Their profile of Bell is very different

HoopysHype - Bell

Extremely aggressive on the defensive end... More skilled than most people think on the offensive end... Runs the floor like a deer.

 

[cly2tw]

So in other words, Bell's inferior numbers prove that he is a better defender?

No. My claim was the numbers are meaningless. How you could conclude otherwise is quite beyong my comprehension.

I kind of recall that you once used similar line of reasoning to argue that one can't look at Iverson's bad shooting % to conclude that he was an ineffective offensive player.

 

[elindholm]

I kind of recall that you once used similar line of reasoning to argue that one can't look at Iverson's bad shooting % to conclude that he was an ineffective offensive player.

I have a hunch that I've seen more of Iverson's game than you have of Bell's. I don't think anyone would dispute that Iverson is an exceptional player who brings to the game a unique dynamic that forces one to look beyond some of the numbers. I haven't heard too many people try to make a similar argument about Bell.

But I'll keep an open mind about Bell, and maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[frdbtr]

I had a great time reading those posts. I was leaving SLC on Friday to attend my Nephews wedding reception in Central utah and listened to the local talk shows the whole time. The Crying was hilarious. Bell was a great pick up for the Jazz, he plays hard and will be a steal at 5mil per year. Reading the posts above from jazz fans reminds me of a guy who asks the hottest girl in school out on a date and then tells his friends that she really is ugly when she turns him down. Raja, of course, isn't the hottest girl in high school (figuratively speaking) but is a nice pick up for the Suns and the Jazz fans are just spewing sour grapes.

 

[Amare32]

I checked out a couple of Jazz boards a day or so before Raja agreed to sign with the Suns and they were all going on about how important It is to re-sign him and how important he has been to them and how good he defends, shoots and plays for the team e.t.c and a day later all you see is the Raja Bell hate threads and how they don't need him anyway...the Suns can have him, he is getting overpaid e.t.c...was quite funny I must say.

He goes from hero and a great player to is a complete ass and a bad player within a day

thats what happens with some fans I guess.

Raja is prefect for this team and what we are trying to do so I couldn't be more happy to see here him.

 

[Joe Mama]

He goes from hero and a great player to is a complete ass and a bad player within a day

thats what happens with some fans I guess.

It happens here also. Most of us are guilty of rationalizing the moves the team makes. Of course there are others who aren't happy with anything the team does. I'm not sure either is better than the other.

Last summer as the free-agent signing period was just about to start I was adamant that I did not want the Phoenix Suns to go after Q. I wasn't very happy when they made him an offer, but I soon rationalized it as a decent signing for the money. Now, despite the successful 2004-05 season, that doesn't necessarily look like the greatest move. The Suns might have been better off in the long run drafting Iguodala, signing JJ to that $50 million extension, and using the remaining money on some other free-agent.

They aren't the only fans to sour on players as soon as they leave.

Joe Mama

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Paul Shirley wasn't that good of a blogger Europe can have him.

 

[Joe Mama]

Paul Shirley wasn't that good of a blogger Europe can have him.

yeah, I thought his first few writings were funny, but he wore on me quickly.

Joe Mama