Utah is dying

[SirStefan32]

And I should clarify something- I do not believe Penny will be traded.

I also think he is a very important part of this team, we all saw what happened last year when he went down.

Are JJ and CJ enough on the off guard position?

As far as Bo goes, he's a nice energy guy off the bench, but with the addition of Zarko, and re-signing of Voskhul, another high energy guy, the Suns should be OK.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by hcsilla
That's not only about "that" player.
Suns could use their MLE and 1 mil. exceptions in 2004 AND the MLE in 2005.

Sorry, I don't agree. I would never trade Penny and Bo for a 2nd rounder.

If it was just Penny (or just Bo), then maybe. But I would expect at least a 1st rounder for those two, even if it's conditional.

2nd rounders are worth virtually nothing.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Sorry, I don't agree. I would never trade Penny and Bo for a 2nd rounder.

If it was just Penny (or just Bo), then maybe. But I would expect at least a 1st rounder for those two, even if it's conditional.

2nd rounders are worth virtually nothing.

If we are talking about saving money, then the 2nd rounders are perfect. First round picks get guaranteed contracts.

Come on, we are talking about losing over $15M here, if anybody would take Penny and Outlaw, I'd do it in a heart beat.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirStefan32
If we are talking about saving money, then the 2nd rounders are perfect. First round picks get guaranteed contracts.

Come on, we are talking about losing over $15M here, if anybody would take Penny and Outlaw, I'd do it in a heart beat.

Well, I would want something back. I hate sacrificing our team just to save money. I want to save money, don't get me wrong, but I also want to keep the team intact. This move makes us worse--I would rather break even at least when it comes to talent on the floor.

How would this "trade" actually work anyway with the CBA in its current form?

$15million for a 2nd rounder?? That CAN'T be legal.

 

[SirStefan32]

I am by no means any kind of expert on this, but I believe that it would work because Utah is under the cap.

And I also understand what you are saying about getting something back. Yes, the trade would make Phoenix slightly worse this season, but they could use they MLE, and Vet exception next season, and they could also think about some trades.

Stefan

 

[SirStefan32]

As Eric said,

Originally posted by elindholm
Dumping Hardaway on the Jazz would hurt the Suns in the short term, but help them a lot, I think, in 2004 and 2005.

Then he went on to explain that the Suns are not going to crack the top 4 anyways, so why not sacrifice a few wins this year to improve the team next year.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirStefan32
I am by no means any kind of expert on this, but I believe that it would work because Utah is under the cap.

And I also understand what you are saying about getting something back. Yes, the trade would make Phoenix slightly worse this season, but they could use they MLE, and Vet exception next season, and they could also think about some trades.

Stefan

If we got rid of Penny and Bo for nothing, who else would you trade besides Googs, who WON'T be traded anyway?

Trades would be out of the question because we wouldn't have the commodities to trade with. I can see using the MLE and exception, but we certainly won't get any major players with at least the exception. The MLE might get us someone decent, but not anyone that special.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chaplin
If we got rid of Penny and Bo for nothing, who else would you trade besides Googs, who WON'T be traded anyway?

Trades would be out of the question because we wouldn't have the commodities to trade with. I can see using the MLE and exception, but we certainly won't get any major players with at least the exception. The MLE might get us someone decent, but not anyone that special.

OK, so they wouldn't have anybody to trade, but still, by getting rid of Penny and Bo, and getting Googs off the books, the Suns lose over $25 M. That is huge.

You still have
Marbury/ Barbosa
Johnson/ Jacobsen
Marion/ Cabarkapa
Stoudemire/ Voskhul
Tsakalidis/ Williams

SG and C positions are terrible, but that could be taken care of by using MLE and the Vet's min.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chaplin
The MLE might get us someone decent, but not anyone that special.

But what would we lose? Bo Outlaw? He isn't anything special. Penny? I like Penny, he is important to this team, but at $12M a year, I start having 2nd thoughts about liking him. He is a nice player for $4 or $5 M, but not $12. Also, he is injury prone. He put two seasons together, if anybody will take him, ship him immediately.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirStefan32
But what would we lose? Bo Outlaw? He isn't anything special. Penny? I like Penny, he is important to this team, but at $12M a year, I start having 2nd thoughts about liking him. He is a nice player for $4 or $5 M, but not $12. Also, he is injury prone. He put two seasons together, if anybody will take him, ship him immediately.

I think you're delierious. Bo Outlaw is our best full court defender and energy guy. I know you're in love with Little Jake, and I like him too, but he's no Bo Outlaw.

 

[elindholm]

Here's the thing:

Unless Colangelo changes his mind about paying luxury tax, or unless the luxury tax goes away, the Suns cannot go after any decent free agents over the next several years. None.

As hcsilla pointed out, the Suns' team salary for 2004/05 is already at $57 million, without adding any new rookies. That's assuming, as hcsilla did, that Tsakalidis is kept around for a small contract in the range of $2 million per year.

After that season, Outlaw is off the books, so that's a savings of $5.4 million. But Marbury's and Joe Johnson's extensions, if they get them, will start in 2005. So you can kiss that $5.4 million goodbye.

Then, in summer 2006, Hardaway is done, but it's time for Stoudemire to be extended. There goes that savings.

And we haven't even talked about who will fill the 9th, 10th, etc. spots on the roster in 2006. There's more money.

The Suns are in a very, very bad financial situation. Not just now, but for a long time. Relative to the ability of their owner to spend, I'd say that the Suns' financial situation is among the worst in the league.

Some people are saying that "the core" is in place and just needs to grow together. Well, we'd sure better hope that that's true, because they aren't going to be adding any significant new talent.

That is ... unless, by some devious miracle, they can move out a lot of salary quickly. And that would be the appeal of shipping Hardaway out.

Otherwise, take a good long look at the young core on this roster. Can they get it done in a few years, all by themselves? They'll have to.

 

[elindholm]

I like Penny, he is important to this team, but at $12M a year, I start having 2nd thoughts about liking him.

Then at $13.5 million, which is what he actually makes this season, you should have third thoughts. And $14.6 million next season, and $15.8 million the year after that.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I know you're in love with Little Jake,

Hey, cut that out buddy JK

I agree, Outlaw is great, but not at $5M a year.

Chap we are talking about saving between $15 and $17M a year by getting rid of these two guys. Then we save a lot of money when Googs contract is up.

That means we can use MLE and Vet's m. perhaps two years in a raw. I think getting rid of overpaid player for NOTHING is a dream of every GM in this league.

I mean, I see your point, we'd be losing two important guys for NOTHING, but it would help us in the long run.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by elindholm
Here's the thing:

Unless Colangelo changes his mind about paying luxury tax, or unless the luxury tax goes away, the Suns cannot go after any decent free agents over the next several years. None.

As hcsilla pointed out, the Suns' team salary for 2004/05 is already at $57 million, without adding any new rookies. That's assuming, as hcsilla did, that Tsakalidis is kept around for a small contract in the range of $2 million per year.

After that season, Outlaw is off the books, so that's a savings of $5.4 million. But Marbury's and Joe Johnson's extensions, if they get them, will start in 2005. So you can kiss that $5.4 million goodbye.

Then, in summer 2006, Hardaway is done, but it's time for Stoudemire to be extended. There goes that savings.

And we haven't even talked about who will fill the 9th, 10th, etc. spots on the roster in 2006. There's more money.

The Suns are in a very, very bad financial situation. Not just now, but for a long time. Relative to the ability of their owner to spend, I'd say that the Suns' financial situation is among the worst in the league.

Some people are saying that "the core" is in place and just needs to grow together. Well, we'd sure better hope that that's true, because they aren't going to be adding any significant new talent.

That is ... unless, by some devious miracle, they can move out a lot of salary quickly. And that would be the appeal of shipping Hardaway out.

Otherwise, take a good long look at the young core on this roster. Can they get it done in a few years, all by themselves? They'll have to.

Exactly!

 

[Joe Mama]

I agree that the team is better with Hardaway and Bo Outlaw, but if the Colangelos could dump their collective $18 million next season and the season after without taking back a bunch of trash in return they would do it in a heartbeat. And it really, who could blame them?

Disclaimer: there isn't a chance in hell the Utah Jazz would take both of those contracts without getting some young talent and probably multiple first-round draft picks also.

Some of you also seem to be forgetting that if they were somehow able to dump those contracts they would not be paying the $9 million in luxury tax they will owe this season also.

Finally, as I said before I do believe Hardaway and outlaw are important to the team, though with Cabarkapa's and Barbosa's (hopefully) contributions they will be less important. Hardaway's absence last season was most painful because the Phoenix Suns had absolutely no depth behind him. Before he went out Joe Johnson was the only guy coming off the bench that could score, and we all know how inconsistent he was. Once Hardaway went down there was nobody.

Joe Mama

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by elindholm

That wasn't the question. SirStefan raised the possiblity of sending Hardaway to the Jazz, and you said it wouldn't improve the Suns' financial situation. That is what I was disagreeing with.

OK,but Sir Stefan talked about next summer.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by elindholm
Here's the thing:

Unless Colangelo changes his mind about paying luxury tax, or unless the luxury tax goes away, the Suns cannot go after any decent free agents over the next several years. None.

As hcsilla pointed out, the Suns' team salary for 2004/05 is already at $57 million, without adding any new rookies. That's assuming, as hcsilla did, that Tsakalidis is kept around for a small contract in the range of $2 million per year.

After that season, Outlaw is off the books, so that's a savings of $5.4 million. But Marbury's and Joe Johnson's extensions, if they get them, will start in 2005. So you can kiss that $5.4 million goodbye.

Then, in summer 2006, Hardaway is done, but it's time for Stoudemire to be extended. There goes that savings.

And we haven't even talked about who will fill the 9th, 10th, etc. spots on the roster in 2006. There's more money.

The Suns are in a very, very bad financial situation. Not just now, but for a long time. Relative to the ability of their owner to spend, I'd say that the Suns' financial situation is among the worst in the league.

Some people are saying that "the core" is in place and just needs to grow together. Well, we'd sure better hope that that's true, because they aren't going to be adding any significant new talent.

That is ... unless, by some devious miracle, they can move out a lot of salary quickly. And that would be the appeal of shipping Hardaway out.

Otherwise, take a good long look at the young core on this roster. Can they get it done in a few years, all by themselves? They'll have to.

I completely agree.

 

[slinslin]

Not to ruin your parade but isn't it a little bit crazy to speculate about what the payroll will be in 3-4 years?

1. How long will there even be a luxury tax?

2. What would the luxury tax limit be at by then?

3. How long will the current CBA exist?

 

[elindholm]

Not to ruin your parade but isn't it a little bit crazy to speculate about what the payroll will be in 3-4 years?

It's a guessing game either way. Do you want to gamble that the current luxury-tax system will stay about the same, or that it won't? Either way, by the time you know for sure, it will be too late. You'll have already had to commit to a plan of action.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by Joe Mama

Disclaimer: there isn't a chance in hell the Utah Jazz would take both of those contracts without getting some young talent and probably multiple first-round draft picks also.

Some of you also seem to be forgetting that if they were somehow able to dump those contracts they would not be paying the $9 million in luxury tax they will owe this season also.
Joe Mama

I disagree with you on this Joe. Utah HAS to find players and there are not many teams that are going to give them players that can actually play for nothing.

You are making the assumption that taking on salaries is bad. For Utah, it is good. They are under the minimum and cannot get FA's to sign.

Look at the ridiculous money that has been paid to some unproven FA's this summer.

Bo's deal would be especially attractive to them, and he is the honey that makes Penny's contract acceptable. Penny's deal doesn't look so bad in that it is starting to look short.

I know, if you were the Utah Jazz, you wouldn't like this deal, but Utah doesn't have much to choose from at this point.

 

[JCSunsfan]

BTW, I don't expect Penny or Bo to get extensive minutes this year. If we are committed to the future then we must develop JJ, CJake, Barbosa, Amare, Zarko, Little Jake, and Big Jake.

If those two get extensive minutes, it will be at the expense of those guys on that list.

With the addition of Barbosa, Zarko, and Big Jake's return to health--every minute they play will be minutes that Bo or Penny got last year.

Add to that the additional PT that I would like to see Amare get.

Then if Googs is healthy at all, any minutes he gets will be at Bo's expense.

PT wise and player development wise, it is addition by subtraction. Not to mention $18 million DIRECTLY into the owners' pockets.

It is a business after all.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
BTW, I don't expect Penny or Bo to get extensive minutes this year. If we are committed to the future then we must develop JJ, CJake, Barbosa, Amare, Zarko, Little Jake, and Big Jake.

If you think Penny's minutes are going to be taken away by CJ, you're smokin!

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
I disagree with you on this Joe. Utah HAS to find players and there are not many teams that are going to give them players that can actually play for nothing.

I disagree.
There are a lot of teams who are dangerously close to the luxury tax threshold and would give a player (who can still contribute more or much more than Googs can) with expriring contract plus at least a 2nd rounder for saving money.

BOS-Williams
DET-Davis
MIL-Kukoc
HOU-Rice
MEM-Person
SAC-Funderburke
NYK-Knight
TOR-Hunter

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by hcsilla
I disagree.
There are a lot of teams who are dangerously close to the luxury tax threshold and would give a player (who can still contribute more or much more than Googs can) with expriring contract plus at least a 2nd rounder for saving money.

BOS-Williams
DET-Davis
MIL-Kukoc
HOU-Rice
MEM-Person
SAC-Funderburke
NYK-Knight
TOR-Hunter

Youre right IF I was talking about Googs. But I was talking about Penny and Bo. I would argue that right now, Penny is more productive than any guard on that list.

Bo's production vs. pay is probably better than any player on that list.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by Chaplin
If you think Penny's minutes are going to be taken away by CJ, you're smokin!

I never partake.

JJ should get more minutes, CJ will get some more.

There are 48 mpg available at the 2. JJ gets 33, CJ gets 8-10. Then I could see Shawn, Barbs, and maybe even Zarko (now I am really going to be accused of huffing) will bet a few.

Maybe we keep someone from our summer league roster.