Utah is dying

JCSunsfan

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Nice discussion guys. A lot of fun.

I am going to have to bow out for a couple of weeks. Headed to Colorado with the kids for some trout fishing and RR.
 

elindholm

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JJ should get more minutes, CJ will get some more.

There are 48 mpg available at the 2. JJ gets 33, CJ gets 8-10. Then I could see Shawn, Barbs, and maybe even Zarko (now I am really going to be accused of huffing) will bet a few.


My guess for SG minutes:

Hardaway 20-25 per game, with some additional time at PG.

Johnson 15-20 per game, with additional time at SF in "skill ball."

Jacobsen no more than 5 per game on average; some days 10-15, but often zero or only garbage time. I don't see how he can merit 8-10 minutes per game on a regular basis.

Barbosa a few minutes at most on average; same situation as Jacobsen. Barbosa and Jacobsen will both see a lot of DNP-CD's.

Marion zero. What's the lineup -- Voskuhl/Stoudemire/Cabarkapa/Marion/Marbury? I seriously doubt it.

Cabarkapa zero.

In my opinion, Hardaway should still be the starter. We heard the same song and dance a year ago about how fabulous and great Joe Johnson looked. I'll believe it when I see it in real games. Until then, start someone who isn't afraid of the spotlight.
 

Joe Mama

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Originally posted by elindholm
JJ should get more minutes, CJ will get some more.

There are 48 mpg available at the 2. JJ gets 33, CJ gets 8-10. Then I could see Shawn, Barbs, and maybe even Zarko (now I am really going to be accused of huffing) will bet a few.


My guess for SG minutes:

Hardaway 20-25 per game, with some additional time at PG.

Johnson 15-20 per game, with additional time at SF in "skill ball."

Jacobsen no more than 5 per game on average; some days 10-15, but often zero or only garbage time. I don't see how he can merit 8-10 minutes per game on a regular basis.

Barbosa a few minutes at most on average; same situation as Jacobsen. Barbosa and Jacobsen will both see a lot of DNP-CD's.

Marion zero. What's the lineup -- Voskuhl/Stoudemire/Cabarkapa/Marion/Marbury? I seriously doubt it.

Cabarkapa zero.

In my opinion, Hardaway should still be the starter. We heard the same song and dance a year ago about how fabulous and great Joe Johnson looked. I'll believe it when I see it in real games. Until then, start someone who isn't afraid of the spotlight.

I agree with everything except the summer Joe Johnson is having. I would have to look up the numbers, but I don't think he shot the ball nearly as well in last year's Summer league. I think he also had a lot more turnovers. Don't get me wrong. I'm not going into next year expecting much more from Joe Johnson, but I do think he played better this summer than last.

That said I do agree Hardaway should be the starter. It doesn't have as much to do with Joe Johnson's performance as it does with Hardaway's though. Hardaway seemed to play much better as a starter. Some would say it's his attitude, but I think it was hard on him to get cold sitting on the bench and come in and play well right away.

I know JC is gone, but I just wanted to say that I do disagree about how attractive Hardaway and Bo Outlaw would be to Utah. Even know Hardaway has played a couple healthy years (his knees) he is still a serious injury waiting to happen. At his salary it would be totally irresponsible to take him in a trade without some serious compensation. Utah would be better off signing Stephen Jackson to a deal with a first-year salary of $15 million that goes back down to something reasonable a year later.

Joe Mama
 

SirStefan32

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Originally posted by elindholm
JJ should get more minutes, CJ will get some more.

There are 48 mpg available at the 2. JJ gets 33, CJ gets 8-10. Then I could see Shawn, Barbs, and maybe even Zarko (now I am really going to be accused of huffing) will bet a few.


My guess for SG minutes:

Hardaway 20-25 per game, with some additional time at PG.

Johnson 15-20 per game, with additional time at SF in "skill ball."

Jacobsen no more than 5 per game on average; some days 10-15, but often zero or only garbage time. I don't see how he can merit 8-10 minutes per game on a regular basis.

Barbosa a few minutes at most on average; same situation as Jacobsen. Barbosa and Jacobsen will both see a lot of DNP-CD's.

Marion zero. What's the lineup -- Voskuhl/Stoudemire/Cabarkapa/Marion/Marbury? I seriously doubt it.

Cabarkapa zero.

In my opinion, Hardaway should still be the starter. We heard the same song and dance a year ago about how fabulous and great Joe Johnson looked. I'll believe it when I see it in real games. Until then, start someone who isn't afraid of the spotlight.

Heh!, speaking of playing time, let's say you are the coach- how do you divide the PT assuming there are no changes on the roster.

Here is what you have to work with:

Marbury
Barbosa
Hardaway
Jacobsen
Johnson
Marion
Zabarkapa
Outlaw
Googliota
Stoudemire
Tsakalidis
Voskhul
Williams

Point Guard:
Marbury 38, Barbosa 10

Shooting Guard:
Hardaway 25
Johnson 20
Jacobsen 3 (garbage time)

Small Forward:
Marion 38
Zabarkapa 10

Power Forward
Stoudemire 38
Outlaw 5
Cabarkapa 5

Center:
Voskhul 20
Tsakalidis 15
Williams 5
Cabarkapa 8

Of course, when Steph is on the bench, Penny would run the show with Barbosa playing the off guard .

Googliota would be on the IL.

Of course, if the Suns go small, Zarko would be the 4, while Amare shifts to 5.
 

slinslin

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Originally posted by hcsilla
I disagree.


BOS-Williams - Boston needs him
DET-Davis - not big enough contract
MIL-Kukoc - too valueable to give up for nothing
HOU-Rice - how are him and his wife better than Googs?
MEM-Person - Memphis needs him at least for this season
SAC-Funderburke - not big enough contract
NYK-Knight - not big enough contract
TOR-Hunter - not big enough contract

And for most of those teams it wouldn't make much of a difference at all if they let the contract expire or get rid of it this year already.
Not to mention that teams like Milwaukee, Memphis and Boston would pretty much lose the chance to resign these guys for less next year.

PS: I would expect that Joe Johnson will get more minutes than Penny Hardaway and will start more games than Penny Hardaway.
 

hcsilla

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Originally posted by slinslin
And for most of those teams it wouldn't make much of a difference at all if they let the contract expire or get rid of it this year already.
It would make much of difference for all teams.

1st off all they all would save this year's salary of those players.That's ALONE a difference.
Secondly all listed teams (except DET) are dangerously close to or above the luxury tax threshold.
If they would dump a (big) contract then it would save even more money because of the luxury tax and the disbursements.

Not to mention that teams like Milwaukee, Memphis and Boston would pretty much lose the chance to resign these guys for less next year.
They can simply sign them if they are really that important for their former teams.

BOS-Williams - Boston needs him
After acquiring of Jones and likely improvement of Brown Williams is moveable.

MIL-Kukoc - too valueable to give up for nothing
Then how about Sam Cassell?
Kukoc is one step away from retiring and I highly doubt that MIL considers him as the part of their future core.
Furthermore MIL traded a 2nd round pick for 0.3 mil. I bet that they would trade another 2nd rounder (or even a future 1st) for saving 15 mil.

HOU-Rice - how are him and his wife better than Googs?
Rice still can move (which Googs can no longer) and he is still one of the best 3P-shooters in NBA (which Googs never was).
Rice's wife probably is cooking better than Gugliotta.

MEM-Person - Memphis needs him at least for this season
After acquiring of Posey and Jones Person is moveable.


DET-Davis - not big enough contract
SAC-Funderburke - not big enough contract
NYK-Knight - not big enough contract
TOR-Hunter - not big enough contract
UTA can do more moves.


I forgot about GSW:

GSW-Sura,Mills
 

SirStefan32

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Originally posted by Joe Mama
Utah would be better off signing Stephen Jackson to a deal with a first-year salary of $15 million that goes back down to something reasonable a year later.
Joe Mama

Looks like Utah is interested:


Jazz still pursuing guards

Stephen Jackson
By Phil Miller
The Salt Lake Tribune

They may have missed out on their dream backcourt of Corey Maggette and Gilbert Arenas, but the Jazz haven't stopped shopping for guards.
The Jazz will add a point guard today by signing their own free agent, Carlos Arroyo, to a one-year contract. And Friday, they will turn their attention to Stephen Jackson, showing him around Salt Lake City in an effort to attract the Spurs' shooting guard.
Jackson, who averaged 11.8 points and 3.6 rebounds in 80 games for the world champions last season, is not expected to return to San Antonio after the Spurs acquired Ron Mercer, Hedu Turkoglu, Robert Horry and Anthony Carter earlier this month.
The prospect of moving from a champion to a rebuilding team like the post-Stockton & Malone Jazz doesn't bother Jackson, his agent said. "When you are 25 years old, your clock's not ticking at the same pace. A player like Steve looks at it differently," said agent Dan Fegan, who also represents Arenas. "Steve has confidence in his ability, and being an important part of the process -- helping restore a winning franchise -- is attractive."
At 6-foot-8, Jackson is unusually big for a guard. "He's a strong perimeter defender, and with his size, he can overmatch other guards. And he showed he can hit big shots in the playoffs," Fegan said. "He has also proven he can play within a system, which is something I know the Jazz value. He doesn't need the ball all the time to be effective."
Jackson, an unrestricted free agent who played one season with New Jersey and the last two with the Spurs, also has drawn interest from Atlanta, Denver and two other Eastern Conference teams, Fegan said, and he will visit at least the first two. But Jackson would have no problem playing in a small market like Salt Lake City, Fegan said. "Steve is very much about playing," the agent said. "If you put him in a so-called 'hotspot' and he didn't play, he would be miserable. Utah absolutely has an opportunity."
Opportunity is what convinced Arroyo to return to the Jazz, too. With veterans John Stockton and Mark Jackson gone, the third-year point guard figures to see far more minutes than last year's 287 in 44 games.
"His comment to me was that he felt very comfortable here," said Kevin O'Connor, the Jazz's vice president of basketball operations. "He accepted a one-year contract knowing that we'll have money next year, and he feels like he can prove he's worthy."
Arroyo, who averaged 2.8 points as the least-used player on the Jazz's active roster, will stop in Salt Lake today to take a physical exam and sign his contract before hurrying on to the Dominican Republic. Arroyo will represent Puerto Rico in this weekend's Pan Am Games, and next month in the Olympic Qualifying Tournament in San Juan.
Unlike the Jazz's disappointingly quiet offseason -- in which every high-profile free agent they have sought ended up elsewhere -- Arroyo has had an unusually busy one. Playing for Santurce, Arroyo was named MVP of the Puerto Rican summer-league finals after averaging 21.5 points, six rebounds and 4.8 assists in a 4-0 sweep of Leones de Ponce. Arroyo even hit the game-winning free throw with four seconds remaining in the finale.
Play like that increased Arroyo's profile, and gave O'Connor some urgency in keeping him. "It became a situation where we wanted something done quicker, because he had other suitors," O'Connor said. "There were two or three other teams really looking at him as somebody who could play right away. But our coaches really like him, and he's a good fit for us."
The Jazz plan to carry three point guards, O'Connor said. Raul Lopez (who has a guaranteed contract) and second-round draft pick Mo Williams (who doesn't) are already on the roster, but it's possible the Jazz could still add a vetera
 

Joe Mama

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At 6-foot-8, Jackson is unusually big for a guard. "He's a strong perimeter defender, and with his size, he can overmatch other guards. And he showed he can hit big shots in the playoffs," Fegan said. "He has also proven he can play within a system, which is something I know the Jazz value. He doesn't need the ball all the time to be effective."

That doesn't sound like the same Jackson we watched get repeatedly pulled off the floor during the finals because of the loan defensive assignments. He was constantly allowing his man to go right by him.

I like Stephen Jackson, but he isn't worth even the mid-level exception at this point. Even that much is debatable.

Joe Mama
 

hcsilla

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Originally posted by Joe Mama


I like Stephen Jackson, but he isn't worth even the mid-level exception at this point. Even that much is debatable.

Joe Mama

That's an interesting question hiow much money are players worth.

I agree that Jackson right now is not worth more than 3-4 mil. but if James Posey could get the entire mid-level then also Stephen Jackson can get it.
 

Krangodnzr

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Originally posted by hcsilla
That's an interesting question hiow much money are players worth.

I agree that Jackson right now is not worth more than 3-4 mil. but if James Posey could get the entire mid-level then also Stephen Jackson can get it.

But at least Posey can be a light's out defender....Stephen Jackson is not even close to as good defensively...
 

hcsilla

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Originally posted by Krangthebrain
But at least Posey can be a light's out defender....Stephen Jackson is not even close to as good defensively...
And Stephen Jackson is a significantly better offensive player.
 

SirStefan32

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I think Jackson has more potential. He is still learning the ropes. At times, he just seemed totally out of the game. He was physically present, but his mind was some place else.

I don't know, but I would love to have him on the Suns' roster, that's for sure.
 

rkellysunsfan

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I think it'd be crazy to give Joe Johnson the starting spot over Penny. Obviously, this means Frank Johnson is most likely going to do that. But I have to be honest, there's a bunch of reasons why this wouldn't make sense.

First off, I'm not sure a basketball player can prove his worth over and over again more than Penny has to this Phoenix Suns organization. The rule of thumb seems to be, Penny plays and this team is a contender; Penny sits and the only thing we contend for is the next year's Lebron James. In the 2000 season, Penny played in 60 games in which we went 42-18, and he missed 22 games in which we went 11-11. Then this season, we all know what happened to our 3rd place in the Western Conference Phoenix Suns when Anfernee broke his thumb. Joe Johnson played well about once every 4 games, but he has never shown to me any merit for being this team's starting 2 guard.

I'm glad JJ is playing well this summer, but let's be honest enough to look at the competition against which he's playing. Most of those players won't even make the NBA ever, let alone this year. There were a lot of European players this year, and I'm not saying they can't play defense, but look at Dirk Nowitzki. If there's anybody on these boards that truly thinks Penny couldn't have done just as well in JJ's exact same position, I'd like to hear it. I, for one, do not believe this.
 

SirStefan32

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Available free agents:

Player Team Age NBA Experience 2002-03 Salary
Mark Bryant Boston 38 15 years $1,030,000
Bimbo Coles Boston 35 13 years $1,030,000
Walt Williams Dallas 33 11 years $1,030,000
Jon Barry Detroit 34 11 years $3,175,000
Danny Manning Detroit 37 15 years $1,030,000
Tim Hardaway Indiana 36 14 years $12,589
Reggie Miller Indiana 37 16 years $12,046,473
Kendal Gill Minn. 35 13 years $1,030,000
Rob Strickland Minn. 37 15 years $1,030,000
Kenny Anderson New O. 32 12 years $9,185,000
Shawn Kemp Orlando 33 14 years $1,030,000
Derrick Coleman Philly 36 13 years $9,380,000
Tyrone Hill Philly 35 13 years $1,030,000
Jim Jackson Sac-town 32 11 years $791,341
Steve Smith San An. 34 12 years $9,900,000
Kevin Willis San An. 41 19 years $1,030,000
Marc Jackson Utah 38 16 years $1,030,000
Charles Oakley Wash. 39 18 years $1,030,000
Bryon Russell Wash. 32 10 years $1,400,000
 

Errntknght

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I tend to agree with RKelly that we shouldn't give too much weight to JJ's scoring in the summer leagues. Not only are they summer leagues but the team didn't do all that well. I didn't see any games but I recall one poster saying that against Denver our offense was disorganized while Denver's looked sharp. If you recall, last season our offense was much poorer overall whenever Penny was not on the floor. True, the team won more frequently when JJ had a high scoring game than when he didn't but it wasn't because the offense looked sharp - the teamwork as muddled as ever but it helped to have one more guy who was aggresively taking it to the basket one on one.

I do think FJ would start Joe if he can get away with it but if he doesn't add some structure to offense I expect he'll be forced to start Penny. Of course, I think he should add structure regardless of the situation at SG but I can't say that I expect him to do that. It's more likely that he'll move in the direction of a motion offense. It's certainly the case that nothing he said reviewing the season indicated he had second thoughts about the unstructured offense or about small ball.
 

King A

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from today's hoopshype:
i like that penny & outlaw for 2nd rnder

[qutote]"O'Connor is being careful about how he spends Jazz owner Larry H. Miller's money — and that includes not acquiring bad contracts just to meet the minimum. Trade possibilities, however, do loom for the Jazz, especially in light of their struggles in this summer's NBA free agent market. "There's some deals we'll look at," O'Connor said, "(in which) maybe we can get a player without having to give up anything." Deseret Morning News [/quote]

does not look that bad to me
hope the Cs do read this board :)
 
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hcsilla

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Originally posted by King A
from today's hoopshype:
i like that penny & outlaw for 2nd rnder

"O'Connor is being careful about how he spends Jazz owner Larry H. Miller's money — and
that includes not acquiring bad contracts just to meet the minimum.

does not look that bad to me
It does look bad to me.

Both Hardaway and Outlaw have bad contracts.
 
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