Vance Joseph - why does VJ needs to be retained?

[Cardsfaninlouky]

The only way he leaves is if he gets an HC job.

1. Bluto hired him so I doubt he will sacrifice another hire he has made.

2. Team option or no, this coaching staff is now on one year deal and must make the playoffs and win at least one game. Anything short of that and I am guessing everyone will be sent to the wood chipper. It would be the rare coach who would take a job on a one year deal as DC when we all know it takes time to learn and execute a new scheme.

As for Collins and Simmons, has anyone even considered that the two of them are just so bad on the practice field and film room and LB room that they don’t deserve any PT? I mean we kind of already heard that Simmons is so crappy against the run he cannot play unless it is certain passing down. This possibility is never considered and it would be an indictment of their ability at the NFL level.

I believe it is s certainty Vance will be here next year

VJ said Simmons is a sponge on soaking up his assignments, said this from day one in 2020. Well..............something changed? Maybe his assignments are too complicated Idk? I really don't know what all he's asked to do. I know this much, Simmons had no problems at all playing 5 positions & playing them well for Brent Venables at Clemson. I know that's college & the ACC is weak but it wasn't during the 3 years he played there. I truly believe a better DC could get Simmons playing at a pro bowl level, I have no idea about Collins, I just know I see him in the backfield either tackling or assisting on a tackle more often than not during the few snaps he gets. What areas he's lacking in whether it be assignment or knowing the defense as to why he doesn't play more I have no idea?

 

[Stout]

Drafting an off-ball ILB in the top 8 is a embarrassingly bad draft decision even without context.

Yeah, drafting Ray Lewis at #5 was really dumb. See, all your talk of context in other threads was baloney, by your own words. You think in absolutes.

 

[DVontel]

Yeah, drafting Ray Lewis at #5 was really dumb. See, all your talk of context in other threads was baloney, by your own words. You think in absolutes.

Ray Lewis was drafted at #26. Google is right there. At least try dude, good Lord. I’m surprised you didn’t say Dick Butkus even though that was also a completely different era.

 

[Jetstream Green]

VJ said Simmons is a sponge on soaking up his assignments, said this from day one in 2020. Well..............something changed? Maybe his assignments are too complicated Idk? I really don't know what all he's asked to do. I know this much, Simmons had no problems at all playing 5 positions & playing them well for Brent Venables at Clemson. I know that's college & the ACC is weak but it wasn't during the 3 years he played there. I truly believe a better DC could get Simmons playing at a pro bowl level, I have no idea about Collins, I just know I see him in the backfield either tackling or assisting on a tackle more often than not during the few snaps he gets. What areas he's lacking in whether it be assignment or knowing the defense as to why he doesn't play more I have no idea?

I still have no issues with drafting Simmons or Collins, they are both studs and at the very least solid LBs. Both of those guys were better than good on the college level and their physical traits are exceptional... this is a coaching/scheme problem getting these young men in a position where they can bawl, and like an offensive coach you have to change your scheme to match your talent and cannot be a slave to a certain scheme

 

[Stout]

Ray Lewis was drafted at #26. Google is right there. At least try dude, good Lord. I’m surprised you didn’t say Dick Butkus even though that was also a completely different era.

I misread his wiki page, which had him listed as the 5th LBer taken, not the 5th player. But the point stands. In one thread, you said you'd make allowances, and in this thread, no, you wouldn't. Which is it?

 

[DVontel]

I misread his wiki page, which had him listed as the 5th LBer taken, not the 5th player. But the point stands. In one thread, you said you'd make allowances, and in this thread, no, you wouldn't. Which is it?

What are you talking about? Elaborate.

 

[Stout]

What are you talking about? Elaborate.

In another thread, you admitted you wouldn't just blanket rule out taking a top all-pro type player at any particular position in the draft, that there were exceptions. Then you said this in this thread:

Drafting an off-ball ILB in the top 8 is a embarrassingly bad draft decision even without context.

So, if there's a Ray Lewis type talent in the top 5, would that HOFer be worth the pick? You seem to vacillate.

 

[DVontel]

you admitted you wouldn't just blanket rule out taking a top all-pro type player at any particular position in the draft, that there were exceptions.

Can you please show me evidence that I said this?

So, if there's a Ray Lewis type talent in the top 5, would that HOFer be worth the pick?

Well we wouldn’t know without hindsight will we? Why not just get one in the late 20s like where the actual Ray Lewis was drafted?


You love these hindsight hypotheticals when it comes to this discussion for some reason.

 

[Stout]

Can you please show me evidence that I said this?

Well we wouldn’t know without hindsight will we? Why not just get one in the late 20s like where the actual Ray Lewis was drafted?


You love these hindsight hypotheticals when it comes to this discussion for some reason.

Yep, thought so.

 

[DVontel]

Yep, thought so.

I love how you just made something up & when you get called out on it, you take your ball & go home.

 

[Stout]

I love how you just made something up & when you get called out on it, you take your ball & go home.

How'd I get called on it? You go back and forth on "NEVER draft those positions!" and "Sometimes there's exceptions!" I simply mistook a player's draft position reading his Wiki page, but I'm the one being called on it lol

The board has heard different answers from you, so, once and for all: In your draft philosophy, is there any exception to never drafting non-premium positions in the 1st round?

 

[DVontel]

How'd I get called on it? You go back and forth on "NEVER draft those positions!" and "Sometimes there's exceptions!" I simply mistook a player's draft position reading his Wiki page, but I'm the one being called on it lol

The board has heard different answers from you, so, once and for all: In your draft philosophy, is there any exception to never drafting non-premium positions in the 1st round?

Let me make this clear because I think you just want to argue with me.

I’m, DVontel, am against drafting any of the following in the first round regardless of context:

— run stuffing DTs/NTs, RBs, & TEs. I have made that know.

I’m, DVontel, am against drafting in the top 10: off ball ILBs, OG. I NEVER said I would be against drafting off-ball ILBs in the first round completely. Never.


I have always preached that drafting an off-ball LB in the top 10 is dumb. I said it months ago. I said it a day ago. I said it just now.



Doing these hindsight hypotheticals with players in completely different eras are pointless. I don’t know why you keep going that route.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Let me make this clear because I think you just want to argue with me.

I’m, DVontel, am against drafting any of the following in the first round regardless of context:

— run stuffing DTs/NTs, RBs, & TEs. I have made that know.

I’m, DVontel, am against drafting in the top 10: off ball ILBs, OG. I NEVER said I would be against drafting off-ball ILBs in the first round completely. Never.


I have always preached that drafting an off-ball LB in the top 10 is dumb. I said it months ago. I said it a day ago. I said it just now.



Doing these hindsight hypotheticals with players in completely different eras are pointless. I don’t know why you keep going that route.

So Kuechly and Urlacher, both at 9, were no for you.

 

[DVontel]

So Kuechly and Urlacher, both at 9, were no for you.

Not Urlacher considering in the run-heavy era he was in.

Kuechly had a great career, but it says something that Bobby Wagner has had a great career & is still playing at a high level despite being drafted in the 2nd round.

 

[K1Day1]

I will admitt, after watching the Titans vs Bengals and thePackers vs 49ers games that I personally feel better about Kliff & Kyler and not so good about Vance. It's hard to beat a team in the playoffs that puts up 13 or 16 points. But when a team scores 34 points. Not to excuse the Cardinals poor performance on offense however, watching the other playoff games,..... The Cardinals defense (Especially run defense) is complete TRASH...

 

[Stout]

Let me make this clear because I think you just want to argue with me.

I’m, DVontel, am against drafting any of the following in the first round regardless of context:

— run stuffing DTs/NTs, RBs, & TEs. I have made that know.

I’m, DVontel, am against drafting in the top 10: off ball ILBs, OG. I NEVER said I would be against drafting off-ball ILBs in the first round completely. Never.


I have always preached that drafting an off-ball LB in the top 10 is dumb. I said it months ago. I said it a day ago. I said it just now.



Doing these hindsight hypotheticals with players in completely different eras are pointless. I don’t know why you keep going that route.

Okay, cool. If that's your stance, and you're sticking to it, cool. That's all I was wondering about. I disagree, but it'd be a boring world if you always agreed with everyone. See, I wasn't wanting to just argue; I was seeking clarity.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not Urlacher considering in the run-heavy era he was in.

Kuechly had a great career, but it says something that Bobby Wagner has had a great career & is still playing at a high level despite being drafted in the 2nd round.

Considering urlacher was a safety coming outta college . . . weird comment.

This post feels like you don’t want to admit that you’d draft Kuechly because it flies in the face of your strict policy. Maybe I’m misreading this.

Essentially what I’m asking is this: if, in your analysis, there were no high value positions that you rated in close proximity in terms of talent to one of your low rated positions would you still draft the more valuable position? Let’s say it’s a scenario like the cardinals faced years ago. Top 5 pick, no good QBs, so Adrian Peterson or Big? You’re going Big 100% of the time?

 

[DVontel]

Considering urlacher was a safety coming outta college . . . weird comment.

He played multiple positions, including ILB. So…..I see someone didn’t watch Brian Urlacher in college than it actually being a weird comment.

This post feels like you don’t want to admit that you’d draft Kuechly because it flies in the face of your strict policy. Maybe I’m misreading this.

It’s rather evident you are misreading it.

Essentially what I’m asking is this: if, in your analysis, there were no high value positions that you rated in close proximity in terms of talent to one of your low rated positions would you still draft the more valuable position? Let’s say it’s a scenario like the cardinals faced years ago. Top 5 pick, no good QBs, so Adrian Peterson or Big? You’re going Big 100% of the time?

If I had physic abilities & knew AP was going to be great & Levi was going to be bad, then sure, but of course, it’s a completely era with different rules. We also don’t live in a world where people have physic abilities, so the constant hindsight hypotheticals are moot.


I’ll give you a future hypothetical, if the choice came between a great RB prospect & good EDGE/LT prospect, give me the latter every single damn time. Their values are clearly not the same.

 

[TheCardFan]

I am starting to feel like VJ may have a shot at the Miami job.

Supposedly - Flores had personality conflicts in the building and VJ is well know/respected by owner and GM.

Mike McDaniel is the "hot new candidate" people are talking about but lacks the experience.

Take a look at the last HC's for Miami:

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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He played multiple positions, including ILB. So…..I see someone didn’t watch Brian Urlacher in college than it actually being a weird comment.




It’s rather evident you are misreading it.


If I had physic abilities & knew AP was going to be great & Levi was going to be bad, then sure, but of course, it’s a completely era with different rules. We also don’t live in a world where people have physic abilities, so the constant hindsight hypotheticals are moot.


I’ll give you a future hypothetical, if the choice came between a great RB prospect & good EDGE/LT prospect, give me the latter every single damn time. Their values are clearly not the same.

I’m asking you to undertake a mental exercise not be psychic. If you were the talent evaluator and you projected AP to be a HOFer today and you projected Big to be the level of tackle that he eventually became and a pro bowl guard. Would you, as the GM (you know, the guy paid to make a talent evaluation and projection of how good the players would be) choose Big over AP? According to your philosophy, it seems the answer is yes.

As for urlacher, it seems you are a bit outta touch. He entered college as a safety. Played safety, linebacker, and receiver whilst there. Was named an all American at SAFETY. And was considered unique because not only was he a good run defender but because he was great against the pass. See:

“Although he was an excellent run defender, it was his skill against the passing game that set Urlacher apart from other middle linebackers.Measuring 6 feet 4 inches (1.93 metres) tall and weighing 258 pounds (117 kg), Urlacher was big enough to take on and shed blockers, while his speed, exceptional for a man his size, and innate instincts for reading offenses made him outstanding in dropping back into coverage or rushing the quarterback.”

Brian Urlacher | Biography & Facts

Brian Urlacher, American professional gridiron football player who is considered to be one of the best linebackers in National Football League history. He was selected to eight Pro Bowls during his 13-year career with the Chicago Bears and was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2018.

www.britannica.com

He was also a finalist for the Jim Thorpe Award (awarded to nations top defensive back).

So he wasn’t an earthbound run only LB. anyone that watched him knew that wasn’t the case. He was essentially what everyone is hoping Collins can be.

Finally the difference in pass-rush ratio on average in the NFL from urlacher’s 2000-2012 career to present is a WHOPPING 1-2 play swing. He played in what is considered the modern passing era. You have to go all the way back to the 80s to see greater disparity.

 

[FB94]

I hope VJ does get the Miami job. Not only do we get our shot at a couple of solid DCs for next year, add in a couple draft picks. Please let this happen