Vance Joseph - why does VJ needs to be retained?

[TheCardFan]

The 2021 Arizona Cardinals were 11th in points and yardage against.

Sixth in total defensive DVOA and ninth in weighted defensive DVOA.

What do you think a change of leadership would accomplish? This would be a top five defense?

Facts. Don't use them around here...we just want to use conjecture and hyperbole.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Little bit of bad luck facing Penny on Sunday. I think he's a FA after this year, and you could argue there were a few million dollars at stake for him based on his performance in that game. He looked a guy running for his first big payday.

But it still sucked watching him and the SEA o-line obliterate our front seven in Q4.

Sigh... let's see what VJ cooks up for the lambs game.

 

[PACardsFan]

If Mike were to fire anybody he would do wholesale changes and not just fire VJ. He got a lot of flack for firing Steve Wilks back in 2018.

And where is Steve Wilks today? Coaching HS, which is where he belongs. If Michael wants to build a winning franchise, he can’t worry about flack.

 

[Card'em]

Just to maintain a commitment to facts and reality, Steve Wilks is not coaching HS. He's the defensive coordinator for the University of Missouri; however, his defensive unit did perform like a high school team, so you got that right.

 

[NWMike]

The 2021 Arizona Cardinals were 11th in points and yardage against.

Sixth in total defensive DVOA and ninth in weighted defensive DVOA.

What do you think a change of leadership would accomplish? This would be a top five defense?

Is that because the defense is lights out or is it because when the offense was working it made the opposing offense one dimensional and easier to defend? I think VJ's defense is a front runner defense. If the offense is playing well and putting pressure on the other team so they become predictable his D is able to excel. What I have yet to really see from his D is it being able to carry the team during an offensive dry spell or shut down another team when we really need it. When you add the complexity of his scheme and guys continually blowing assignments, having Chandler Jones in coverage, rushing 3 guys on a big third down I'm over it. I think VJ works well when he can confuse QB's like he did with Dak but against the better QB's in this league like Russell they just pick him apart. We may beat the Rams this week because Stafford really isnt playing well but Brady or Rogers will tear us a new one if VJ keeps up with his current scheme.

 

[Chopper0080]

What if I told you we don’t have the CBs to play man?

You would be correct

 

[cardpa]

Reading the comments here has led me to ask the question what makes Josephs defense so complicated? What does he do that makes it harder than other defensive systems in the NFL? Is it responsibilities of certain positions? Is it complex in the schemes and how to execute those schemes? Is it what he asks players to do within the scheme? Has anyone who is familiar with the Joseph defense ever discussed why it's so hard to pick up his system? I would really like to understand what makes it so difficult.

 

[Chopper0080]

The 2021 Arizona Cardinals were 11th in points and yardage against.

Sixth in total defensive DVOA and ninth in weighted defensive DVOA.

What do you think a change of leadership would accomplish? This would be a top five defense?

Yes. I believe as a DC, Fangio and Zimmer both have the ability to coach a top 5 defense. I do not believe Vance does. However, I am not getting rid of Vance for just anyone as he is ok despite my dislike for his scheme and development of young players.

 

[Chopper0080]

Reading the comments here has led me to ask the question what makes Josephs defense so complicated? What does he do that makes it harder than other defensive systems in the NFL? Is it responsibilities of certain positions? Is it complex in the schemes and how to execute those schemes? Is it what he asks players to do within the scheme? Has anyone who is familiar with the Joseph defense ever discussed why it's so hard to pick up his system? I would really like to understand what makes it so difficult.

Vance has so many if/then scenarios in his scheme that it causes players to think so much it slows them down. He tries to take away everything on every play and it generally does not lend itself to doing anything very well.

 

[Arz101]

Vance has so many if/then scenarios in his scheme that it causes players to think so much it slows them down. He tries to take away everything on every play and it generally does not lend itself to doing anything very well.

Vance takes away the ability to defend is what you are saying? Hahaha

 

[kerouac9]

Is that because the defense is lights out or is it because when the offense was working it made the opposing offense one dimensional and easier to defend? I think VJ's defense is a front runner defense. If the offense is playing well and putting pressure on the other team so they become predictable his D is able to excel. What I have yet to really see from his D is it being able to carry the team during an offensive dry spell or shut down another team when we really need it. When you add the complexity of his scheme and guys continually blowing assignments, having Chandler Jones in coverage, rushing 3 guys on a big third down I'm over it. I think VJ works well when he can confuse QB's like he did with Dak but against the better QB's in this league like Russell they just pick him apart. We may beat the Rams this week because Stafford really isnt playing well but Brady or Rogers will tear us a new one if VJ keeps up with his current scheme.

What's the difference? The results are what they are, and the resources of the Arizona Cardinals are allocated how they are. We're not suddenly going to become the Early 2000s Ravens where the offense is going to struggle to score 9 points per game but the defense is going to hold opponents to 8.

This is designed to be a complementary defense that gets enough stops to win a shootout because we have tons and tons of resources invested on the offensive side of the ball, so you hope they'll compete.

They might win a 17-14 game at some point — they won a 17-10 game this season when the offense had this series of possessions:

Missed FG
Punt (Three-and-out)
Punt( Three-and-out)
Punt
Fumble

This defense held the Packers below their season scoring average.

If the only measure for success is that the defense has to consistently keep opponents in the single digits, I dunno what to tell you. That's not realistic in today's NFL.

 

[Chopper0080]

I don't mean to start another debate about Simmons, but vs Seattle Vance had Simmons line up inside with man coverage on the TE. The EDGE was set outside of the TE. In my experience you make it tougher on your players because the LB cannot read through his man to the backfield. He is forced to go back and forth with his eyes because of the alignment. The alignment is meant to prevent the run and while ensuring that the EDGE player is aligned with outside contain. The problem is when the opposing team schemes the TE to flash to the flat, it widens the edge, it forces the ILB to commit to the pass route, and creates a hole to run through unless the EDGE really clamps down to the tackle. Normally you would have the EDGE chip the TE so there is not a clean release but that didn't happen.

And all of it unnecessary IMO.

 

[kerouac9]

Yes. I believe as a DC, Fangio and Zimmer both have the ability to coach a top 5 defense. I do not believe Vance does. However, I am not getting rid of Vance for just anyone as he is ok despite my dislike for his scheme and development of young players.

That's fine, but does he have the ability to coach THIS DEFENSE into a Top 5 defense?

For example, Fangio's defense was 10-25-3 in scoring the past three years. Do you really believe that there's so much additional playmaking to be derived from this unit?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What if I told you we don’t have the CBs to play man?

Oh stop being reasonable!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Is that because the defense is lights out or is it because when the offense was working it made the opposing offense one dimensional and easier to defend? I think VJ's defense is a front runner defense. If the offense is playing well and putting pressure on the other team so they become predictable his D is able to excel. What I have yet to really see from his D is it being able to carry the team during an offensive dry spell or shut down another team when we really need it. When you add the complexity of his scheme and guys continually blowing assignments, having Chandler Jones in coverage, rushing 3 guys on a big third down I'm over it. I think VJ works well when he can confuse QB's like he did with Dak but against the better QB's in this league like Russell they just pick him apart. We may beat the Rams this week because Stafford really isnt playing well but Brady or Rogers will tear us a new one if VJ keeps up with his current scheme.

The defense did a great job holding the #1 offense in the nfl to 22 points just two weeks ago when our offense couldn’t finish drives.

 

[Stout]

Is that because the defense is lights out or is it because when the offense was working it made the opposing offense one dimensional and easier to defend? I think VJ's defense is a front runner defense. If the offense is playing well and putting pressure on the other team so they become predictable his D is able to excel. What I have yet to really see from his D is it being able to carry the team during an offensive dry spell or shut down another team when we really need it. When you add the complexity of his scheme and guys continually blowing assignments, having Chandler Jones in coverage, rushing 3 guys on a big third down I'm over it. I think VJ works well when he can confuse QB's like he did with Dak but against the better QB's in this league like Russell they just pick him apart. We may beat the Rams this week because Stafford really isnt playing well but Brady or Rogers will tear us a new one if VJ keeps up with his current scheme.

Very good point.

 

[Chopper0080]

That's fine, but does he have the ability to coach THIS DEFENSE into a Top 5 defense?

For example, Fangio's defense was 10-25-3 in scoring the past three years. Do you really believe that there's so much additional playmaking to be derived from this unit?

I do. But that is mostly because I believe that we have two special athletes who are being miscast and misused. I also feel that Vance burns dudes out because he plays them more snaps than he should.

Here is why. In two season under Matt Patricia as an EDGE player, Devon Kennard had the follow stats

Sacks: 7 / 7
Tackles For Loss: 9 / 9
QB hits: 14 / 15
Pressures: 25 / 30

Here are the stats that same player has had since coming to AZ as an EDGE player under Vance.

Sacks: 3/ 0
TFL: 5 / 7
QB hits: 9 / 2
Pressures: 11 / 5

Kennard has not changed as a player. He is still the same guy, in his prime, and in relatively the same position. EDGE in a 3/4.

He has gone from a solid player with a worse cast to a bad player with a better cast. That is what Vance does.

So a solid veteran player goes from 80% snaps to 28% snaps? That is on the coaching. No reason you can't give a player like Kennard reps to keep your 32 old Chandler Jones and 30 year old Markus Golden fresh over the course of a season.

 

[kerouac9]

I do. But that is mostly because I believe that we have two special athletes who are being miscast and misused. I also feel that Vance burns dudes out because he plays them more snaps than he should.

Here is why. In two season under Matt Patricia as an EDGE player, Devon Kennard had the follow stats

Kennard has not changed as a player. He is still the same guy, in his prime, and in relatively the same position. EDGE in a 3/4.

He has gone from a solid player with a worse cast to a bad player with a better cast. That is what Vance does.

So a solid veteran player goes from 80% snaps to 28% snaps? That is on the coaching. No reason you can't give a player like Kennard reps to keep your 32 old Chandler Jones and 30 year old Markus Golden fresh over the course of a season.

Yeah. That's an interesting point. I wonder if that's because Kennard went from a featured player in DET (only guy getting more than 56% of the snaps in the LB corps) to a background player. I firmly believe that part of the problem right now with the defense is that there aren't enough "standard tools" in the toolbox and you can only feature 1-3 unique players at a time to their full potential.

It's hard to say who Vance is featuring right now; everyone seems to be playing at a B- to B+ level. Just seems to be a real miscommunication with Keim about what the coach wants and needs.

 

[StreetTruckinTitan]

And where is Steve Wilks today? Coaching HS, which is where he belongs. If Michael wants to build a winning franchise, he can’t worry about flack.

I couldnt agree more.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The 2021 Arizona Cardinals were 11th in points and yardage against.

Sixth in total defensive DVOA and ninth in weighted defensive DVOA.

What do you think a change of leadership would accomplish? This would be a top five defense?

Changing just to nudge up your ranking is one of the worst things a football team can do.

I'm not a huge Jim Caldwell fan, but the Detroit Lions example of firing him after he built a fairly good program for the chance that Matt Patricia could be better is a good example of what SOME are advocating on this board.

The grass isn't always greener. Sometimes that grass is really just astro turf.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I do. But that is mostly because I believe that we have two special athletes who are being miscast and misused. I also feel that Vance burns dudes out because he plays them more snaps than he should.

Here is why. In two season under Matt Patricia as an EDGE player, Devon Kennard had the follow stats

Sacks: 7 / 7
Tackles For Loss: 9 / 9
QB hits: 14 / 15
Pressures: 25 / 30

Here are the stats that same player has had since coming to AZ as an EDGE player under Vance.

Sacks: 3/ 0
TFL: 5 / 7
QB hits: 9 / 2
Pressures: 11 / 5

Kennard has not changed as a player. He is still the same guy, in his prime, and in relatively the same position. EDGE in a 3/4.

He has gone from a solid player with a worse cast to a bad player with a better cast. That is what Vance does.

So a solid veteran player goes from 80% snaps to 28% snaps? That is on the coaching. No reason you can't give a player like Kennard reps to keep your 32 old Chandler Jones and 30 year old Markus Golden fresh over the course of a season.

Completely agree with this.

 

[BritCard]

Is that because the defense is lights out or is it because when the offense was working it made the opposing offense one dimensional and easier to defend? I think VJ's defense is a front runner defense. If the offense is playing well and putting pressure on the other team so they become predictable his D is able to excel. What I have yet to really see from his D is it being able to carry the team during an offensive dry spell or shut down another team when we really need it. When you add the complexity of his scheme and guys continually blowing assignments, having Chandler Jones in coverage, rushing 3 guys on a big third down I'm over it. I think VJ works well when he can confuse QB's like he did with Dak but against the better QB's in this league like Russell they just pick him apart. We may beat the Rams this week because Stafford really isnt playing well but Brady or Rogers will tear us a new one if VJ keeps up with his current scheme.

You can say this for all teams. Look at the Chiefs defense once Mahomes and the offense got their act together.

There's no elite defenses with bad offenses.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I do. But that is mostly because I believe that we have two special athletes who are being miscast and misused. I also feel that Vance burns dudes out because he plays them more snaps than he should.

Here is why. In two season under Matt Patricia as an EDGE player, Devon Kennard had the follow stats

Sacks: 7 / 7
Tackles For Loss: 9 / 9
QB hits: 14 / 15
Pressures: 25 / 30

Here are the stats that same player has had since coming to AZ as an EDGE player under Vance.

Sacks: 3/ 0
TFL: 5 / 7
QB hits: 9 / 2
Pressures: 11 / 5

Kennard has not changed as a player. He is still the same guy, in his prime, and in relatively the same position. EDGE in a 3/4.

He has gone from a solid player with a worse cast to a bad player with a better cast. That is what Vance does.

So a solid veteran player goes from 80% snaps to 28% snaps? That is on the coaching. No reason you can't give a player like Kennard reps to keep your 32 old Chandler Jones and 30 year old Markus Golden fresh over the course of a season.

In kennards defense he was playing behind chandler/Reddick and chandler/golden - 4 players all better than him.

 

[Stout]

You can say this for all teams. Look at the Chiefs defense once Mahomes and the offense got their act together.

There's no elite defenses with bad offenses.

Disagreed. Look at what the Steelers defense has done in the past with freaking Duck Hodges as QB. Look at what the Ravens D has done this year in many games without any appreciable offensive output. Great defenses stone the other team when the offense is struggling. Good defenses can be counted on to make a crucial stop or two when they have to. What defense did we have when we needed the big stop this week? I'm not saying our defense has been garbage this year, but they are wildly inconsistent, and can be soft as a marshmallow, which just won't do.

 

[Arz101]

You are are all crapping on VJ while he is the having the time of his life out there.