Wade, Bosh, Haslem opt out.

[Cheesebeef]

These are big name players who reap endorsements way beyond their pay. Then they appear to get together and wink wink, well let's add another big name player who can take a lower salary as well and make it up on endorsements so we can go back to winning Champioships.

IMO, they have an unfair advantage over most other NBA teams. Maybe the rules don't cover it now but that does not mean it is right. I call it circumventing the rules. The Commissioner used to have the power to to rule against such advantages for the good of the game. Those days are probably gone. The direction the NBA is heading now appears to be like an elite club and less like fair competition. Who knows maybe another professional basketball league will be formed again in the United States or worldwide. I could support such a league it if it is properly done.

Thanks for letting me vent. I know I have a losing argument.

If the Suns ever managed to get in this position to do this, I would say they literally bought a Championship with a band of mercenaries.

so when the Suns colluded with AC Green and Danny Manning back in the day to circumvent the rules to create great teams, you had a big problem with what they did, right?

and did you hate the 2001 D-Backs title as well?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I had no problems with what Jerry did although I might have if I had known exactly what he was doing at the time. I have no problem with what the triplets did although I think the league would be better off if they could limit this type of thing. I have no idea how to do that though. I didn't like "the Decision" but I can't begrudge them wanting to win and wanting to choose where to do that.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

One idea that I haven't seen floated here is doing what the NFL does and instituting a FRANCHISE PLAYER rule, where each team can "Franchise" a guy for a number of years after their first contract, but that means you have to pay a super premium for that player. And even there, I'd think that you could only do that for so long. But that's the only solution that makes any sense. If you can't build a winner around someone withn say 7 years, they deserve to go tail-lights on your ass.

That might be the only solution. Chances are there would be less franchise caliber guys floating around looking to sign under market value with another team to play with another franchise player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I had no problems with what Jerry did although I might have if I had known exactly what he was doing at the time.

I'm sorry, I just can't buy this at all. EVERYONE knew what he was doing at the time of Green. It was widely reported that was the deal when Green, who was the best FA signed a one year, one million dollar deal that once we had his bird rights later that season, he'd get the big deal. And even if you didn't "know exactly what he was doing at the time", are you really telling me that the next year, with Green's new deal in the books and the salary cap scam having been outed officially, that you didn't know what he was doing with Manning when they did the exact same thing?

Come on. When we were the Have, no one had a problem with us doing everything possible to win a title either with JC or later when we tried to get KG and Hill with the Nash teams. Now that we're a have not, it bugs people. Well, if that's the case, have a little perspective.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm sorry, I just can't buy this at all. EVERYONE knew what he was doing at the time of Green. It was widely reported that was the deal when Green, who was the best FA signed a one year, one million dollar deal that once we had his bird rights later that season, he'd get the big deal. And even if you didn't "know exactly what he was doing at the time", are you really telling me that the next year, with Green's new deal in the books and the salary cap scam having been outed officially, that you didn't know what he was doing with Manning when they did the exact same thing?

Come on. When we were the Have, no one had a problem with us doing everything possible to win a title either with JC or later when we tried to get KG and Hill with the Nash teams. Now that we're a have not, it bugs people. Well, if that's the case, have a little perspective.

At the time I had no idea what he was doing was against the rules. It wasn't until Minnesota got in trouble with Joe Smith that I became aware of just how far over the line Jerry had crossed.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

At the time I had no idea what he was doing was against the rules. It wasn't until Minnesota got in trouble with Joe Smith that I became aware of just how far over the line Jerry had crossed.

Steve

You thought AC Green and Manning were just taking one year, one million dollar deals, even though they were both the best FA (and very good players) without thinking that it was a way to get their Bird Rights and that there weren't deals in place to make good on what they were worth a year later? I'm sorry, but that is beyond impossible to swallow. Did you just think they were hoping that a year later they would get bigger deals, risking a possible serious injury where they would have lost all that money they could have gotten with long-term deals? And you STILL thought this even after Manning blew out his ACL during that one year deal and Colangelo THEN paid him a big contract. Why did you think he gave Manning (who already had major knee problems) that big contract right after he blew out his knee AGAIN. You didn't think right then and there at least that they had made a wink wink deal the year before that once they got his Bird rights they'd give him what he was worth? if you DIDN'T think they were doing anything sneaky back then, well, it's further proof that denial ain't just a river in egypt. Being a HAVE will do that to ya.

they specifically changed the CBA because of what Jerry did...and this was BEFORE the Joe Smith deal, which only came to light in 2000.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You thought AC Green and Manning were just taking one year, one million dollar deals, even though they were both the best FA (and very good players) without thinking that it was a way to get their Bird Rights and that there weren't deals in place to make good on what they were worth a year later? I'm sorry, but that is beyond impossible to swallow. Did you just think they were hoping that a year later they would get bigger deals, risking a possible serious injury where they would have lost all that money they could have gotten with long-term deals? And you STILL thought this even after Manning blew out his ACL during that one year deal and Colangelo THEN paid him a big contract. Why did you think he gave Manning (who already had major knee problems) that big contract right after he blew out his knee AGAIN. You didn't think right then and there at least that they had made a wink wink deal the year before that once they got his Bird rights they'd give him what he was worth? if you DIDN'T think they were doing anything sneaky back then, well, it's further proof that denial ain't just a river in egypt. Being a HAVE will do that to ya.

they specifically changed the CBA because of what Jerry did...and this was BEFORE the Joe Smith deal, which only came to light in 2000.

I didn't know anything about Bird rights back then. I knew about the promises, I didn't know they were against the rules. I thought it was okay to do it and thought nothing more of it than I did when the Celtics found a way to draft Larry Bird. I was under the impression that Jerry was well respected for his promises and coming through on them especially once Manning went down. Like I said, until Minnesota got in trouble I had no clue he was circumventing the rules.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

I didn't know anything about Bird rights back then. I knew about the promises, I didn't know they were against the rules.

that's just it. it WASN'T against the rules. It was a way to collude with players to circumvent the rules. Which is what everyone here is slamming the Heat players for.

I thought it was okay to do it and thought nothing more of it than I did when the Celtics found a way to draft Larry Bird. I was under the impression that Jerry was well respected for his promises and coming through on them especially once Manning went down. Like I said, until Minnesota got in trouble I had no clue he was circumventing the rules.

Steve

if he wasn't circumventing the rules, why sign guys...eh forget it. like i said...denial ain't just a river in egypt.

 

[AzStevenCal]

that's just it. it WASN'T against the rules. It was a way to collude with players to circumvent the rules. Which is what everyone here is slamming the Heat players for.

Except that I am not one of the everyone's you're talking about. I have no problem with what they did, I just didn't like the way Lebron handled his Cleveland exit.

if he wasn't circumventing the rules, why sign guys...eh forget it. like i said...denial ain't just a river in egypt.

I don't see the reason for this. It wasn't denial, it was a different time. I had no idea about the rules on the business side (or interest for that matter) and I was far from alone in this.

I was a regular on the Suns board when the Arizona Republic was hosted on AOL and on the actual AOL Suns board from the early/mid 90's on. I don't remember even one single conversation about things like this back then. If you don't believe me, ask JCSunsfan or errntknight if they remember much of this type of conversation on the AOL board. I really doubt they do. There were some comments on the alt.sports Suns site but I usually ignored those posts. The first time I remember participating in a thread about these kind of things was on the Rivals site.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

Except that I am not one of the everyone's you're talking about. I have no problem with what they did, I just didn't like the way Lebron handled his Cleveland exit.



I don't see the reason for this. It wasn't denial, it was a different time. I had no idea about the rules on the business side (or interest for that matter) and I was far from alone in this.

I was a regular on the Suns board when the Arizona Republic was hosted on AOL and on the actual AOL Suns board from the early/mid 90's on. I don't remember even one single conversation about things like this back then. If you don't believe me, ask JCSunsfan or errntknight if they remember much of this type of conversation on the AOL board. I really doubt they do. There were some comments on the alt.sports Suns site but I usually ignored those posts. The first time I remember participating in a thread about these kind of things was on the Rivals site.

Steve

Steve, you say you knew about the promises, but didn't think there was anything wrong with them, right? If that's the case, then didn't you think it was a little strange that JC didn't just come out and say we're signing these guys to one year deals, but we've promised them bigger contracts now that we have their Bird Rights? I mean, why not announced both contracts at the same time? I mean, if there's was nothing shady about a one year deal with a promise for a second bigger deal, what would have stopped JC from acknowledging the wink wink deal in the press? Could it be because he KNEW if he did, the NBA would likely strike the deals down?

I just can't fathom how anyone thought what we were doing was completely above board. I was only 16 time at the time and I KNEW what Colangelo was doing and thought he was a genius for it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Heat now have an NBA record $55M in cap space.

Aren't there cap holds? They don't have that space unless they renounce.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Steve, you say you knew about the promises, but didn't think there was anything wrong with them, right? If that's the case, then didn't you think it was a little strange that JC didn't just come out and say we're signing these guys to one year deals, but we've promised them bigger contracts now that we have their Bird Rights? I mean, why not announced both contracts at the same time? I mean, if there's was nothing shady about a one year deal with a promise for a second bigger deal, what would have stopped JC from acknowledging the wink wink deal in the press? Could it be because he KNEW if he did, the NBA would likely strike the deals down?

I just can't fathom how anyone thought what we were doing was completely above board. I was only 16 time at the time and I KNEW what Colangelo was doing and thought he was a genius for it.

I didn't even think in those terms, I didn't know anyone that did. I had no interest in the business side of the NBA and all I ever heard about it was what a class act Jerry was and how well respected he was. I didn't have even an inkling there was something wrong, heck, I didn't even realize they could do something wrong.

I had never heard of Bird rights or the Stepien rule or cap holds or anything like that. You're talking 1993, 1994 or somewhere around there. Even with the internet, a lot of this kind of information was almost non-existent back then. And living in California I picked up very little information on the Suns. As far as I know, League Pass wasn't even available at that time.

You keep going back to the same things and I keep responding with the same things. But, seriously, I had absolutely no idea it was shady. I didn't even know that the promises weren't talked about in the paper. I knew they couldn't reach a binding deal but not that there was any reason Jerry couldn't make a non-binding handshake deal. I just remember him being lauded for standing by his word. What little I knew about this came from national telecasts and there was never a suggestion that he'd crossed some line. Or if there was, I was too naive to pick up on it.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

I didn't even think in those terms, I didn't know anyone that did. I had no interest in the business side of the NBA and all I ever heard about it was what a class act Jerry was and how well respected he was. I didn't have even an inkling there was something wrong, heck, I didn't even realize they could do something wrong.

I had never heard of Bird rights or the Stepien rule or cap holds or anything like that. You're talking 1993, 1994 or somewhere around there. Even with the internet, a lot of this kind of information was almost non-existent back then.

This really wasn't the case back then Steve. All the talk was that the Suns were circumventing the Larry Bird Rule (and the Blazers with the Chris Dudley deal). That's why the rule was changed.

And living in California I picked up very little information on the Suns. As far as I know, League Pass wasn't even available at that time.

You keep going back to the same things and I keep responding with the same things. But, seriously, I had absolutely no idea it was shady. I didn't even know that the promises weren't talked about in the paper. I knew they couldn't reach a binding deal but not that there was any reason Jerry couldn't make a non-binding handshake deal.

Steve

The fact that you knew they couldn't legally reach a binding deal, but made one anyway behind the NBA's back, is the very definition of collusion. i mean, think about...they weren't allowed to legally make a deal, you knew that...but you also knew they made another deal to get around the deal they couldn't legally make...and not notify the league about it. You thinking that was somehow kosher screams denial. maybe not now, but definitely back then.

 

[KloD]

another question then...so were you against the idea of the Suns trading Marion for KG and likely signing Grant Hill creating our own super-team of Nash/Amare/Garnett/Hill when it looked like those were real possibilities during the 2007 off-season, which would have created a Super-Team? Because I don't remember you or ANYONE saying the scenario above was going to be unfair from a competitive standpoint.

I honestly don't recall that, but I was taking 18-20 graduate credits a term that year, working full time, and my 1st child had just been born in May. I don't think following the Suns off season was high on my list at the time.

I admit, I have no rational argument. I don't begrudge the players for taking cuts or helping to try and win championships. I just don't like the idea of 2 or 3 teams having 4 or 5 all stars and the rest being the Pirates or the Royals. It doesn't interest me to follow an NBA built that way. My only real issue with what's happening in Miami is that I fear this is the beginning of the end to any real competition.

What if 12 all stars decided to take $5 million a piece and win championships 10 years in a row. They could make up the money through endorsements. Is that what we want the NBA to become? It's not against the rules, but I don't think many would like it. At least I wouldn't, even if that team were the Suns. I'm pretty certain I'd lose interest in the NBA.

 

[sunsfan88]

Aren't there cap holds? They don't have that space unless they renounce.

Your right

LeBron James, Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade and Udonis Haslem have all opted out of their contracts for the 14-15 season with the Miami Heat, which will create an NBA-record $55 million in available cap space.

The cap space doesn't technically become available until the players are re-signed, or have their Bird Rights renounced.

Wade will opt out of two years and $41.8 million, Bosh will opt out of two years and $42.6 million and Haslem will not exercise his player option of $4.6 million.

Henry Thomas represents all three players. Thomas later said on Saturday, however, that a final decision had not yet been reached by Bosh.

Bosh will head into free agency willing to accept a pay cut from the $20 million he was owed next year, sources said. Haslem is looking for a multiyear deal that will assure him more guaranteed money than what he originally was owed, though he's also willing to a pay cut.

The flurry of opt-outs to create cap room also makes the Heat eligible to use the $2.5 million room exception in a separate deal to add a role player.

Wade and Bosh decided to opt out after meeting with James on Wednesday.

The trio have collaborated on their contracts dating back to 2006 when they decided to pass on five-year contracts to sign three-year extensions.

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/mia...dwyane-wade-tells-miami-heat-test-free-agency

 

[SO91]

I think Cheese has expressed most of my feelings on the matter, and done so a little more passionately than I could have He brought up Fitz and Dockett, and it's essentially what most of us hope they end up doing. I'd also bring up Dansby, and how emotional and hurt some posters were over him taking the most money, instead of accepting a hometown discount to stay with our beloved Cards. Some may not like what the Heat players are about to do, but it is within the rules (as far as I know), and every other player has the opportunity to do the same. The fact that they haven't speaks volumes as to what these players are thinking about sacrificing to give themselves the best chance to win. I'm not particularly fond of how Lebron left Cleveland (the televised event), but I can't fault him for choosing to make a change.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The fact that you knew they couldn't legally reach a binding deal, but made one anyway behind the NBA's back, is the very definition of collusion. i mean, think about...they weren't allowed to legally make a deal, you knew that...but you also knew they made another deal to get around the deal they couldn't legally make...and not notify the league about it. You thinking that was somehow kosher screams denial. maybe not now, but definitely back then.

You're twisting it Cheese. I'm telling you, I didn't even think of it in those terms, legal or illegal. I heard from a public source (game announcers) that he had agreed to give them new (longer) contract when the rules permitted. I knew nothing about player contracts twenty years ago. I didn't even realize they were playing for less than market. It just wasn't a topic of conversation in my world.

Steve

 

[HoodieBets]

One thing I haven't seen on here is that the NBA can strike down any transaction not just a trade due to the competition clause. I read that silver would block Melo from signing with the heat due to this since it would create a great imbalance. Wish I could find the link.

 

[elindholm]

If you think about Bosh and Wade for who they are right now, instead of as former stars/superstars, then this possible collusion really isn't that alarming. The Heat are LeBron James and some other guys, not multiple MVP candidates. It's debatable whether either Wade or Bosh is top-five at his position anymore.

Besides, this is exactly what the Spurs did, and which everyone has given them so much credit for: Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili all re-signed for less than they could have. Imagine if the Heat could spend their money on Parker instead of Wade!

 

[BC867]

I guess you hated the 2001 Diamonbacks team also that spent like drunken sailors to win their title. Because correct me if I'm wrong, but The Big Unit, Schilling, Williams, Bell and Reggie Sanders sure as hell weren't homegrown and were all gotten through shelling out HUGE amounts of money.

I think you missed the point.

Now let's call it what it is. Overpaid millionaire athletes manipulating rosters to corner the market on championships.

The 2001 D-backs championship roster was put together by the General Manager. It is his job.

Not by Randy Johnson scheming with Curt Shilling to join Gonzo in Arizona. And going public with it.

If your point is why is LeBron resented by the public and RJ wasn't, there is your answer.

A player conspiring to join a team and form a big-3 as opposed to a General Manager doing his job to build one, whether through free agency or trade acquisitions.

 

[CardsFan88]

I know it would never happen, but wouldn't it be funny if either

a) Lebron left Miami, and so did Wade/Bosh/Haslem

b) Lebron wanted to stay, but Wade/Bosh/Haslem all left

Interesting news that they decided to opt-out, Miami still in the thick of it. We'll see what happens.

 

[Absolute Zero]

I know it would never happen, but wouldn't it be funny if either

a) Lebron left Miami, and so did Wade/Bosh/Haslem

b) Lebron wanted to stay, but Wade/Bosh/Haslem all left

Interesting news that they decided to opt-out, Miami still in the thick of it. We'll see what happens.

Those would be awesome options, but this reeks of further conspiring by "the big three". Looks like they will all take less, but allow Lebron to be the highest paid, to free up $$ to bring in Kyle Lowry or someone like that. But is that really going to help them that much?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Those would be awesome options, but this reeks of further conspiring by "the big three". Looks like they will all take less, but allow Lebron to be the highest paid, to free up $$ to bring in Kyle Lowry or someone like that. But is that really going to help them that much?

I think anything that frees up Lebron is going to help them significantly. I don't know if Lowry is the right fit but a guard that can handle most of the ball handling duties would take a lot of pressure off of James and help keep him fresh throughout the season and the playoffs. Wade looked pretty bad in the Spurs series and if that's what he'll be going forward, signing a point guard probably won't be enough. But Wade still averaged 19 points per game during the season so I think he still has some game left. I'd imagine they'll cut his minutes down even further and do what they can to also keep him fresh for the postseason.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

Miami fans seem to believe the target is Gortat. I am glad we traded him or we would be in the middle of this in a bad way.

I tend to agree with Eric. Without an influx of real young talent Miami just is not that scary, even if they add Gortat.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Miami fans seem to believe the target is Gortat. I am glad we traded him or we would be in the middle of this in a bad way.

I tend to agree with Eric. Without an influx of real young talent Miami just is not that scary, even if they add Gortat.

adding Gortat makes them better, but still probably not good enough to beat the Spurs. They somehow need to add Gortat and Lowry (or another solid PG...maybe a Collison who would come cheaper). Then they'd have a pretty complete starting five. Not much of a bench though.