Waiting to reserve judgement by game five

[Krangodnzr]

Or if you have the number one pick, realize your team is awful and you need to rebuild at its core, not sign a bunch of flashy players and an offensive gimmick system coach and his high school crush.

Nearly the same team won 8 games with a better coach and better QB play.

The Cardinals have a probably hall of Famer at CB, a Pro Bowl pass rusher, a good when healthy LT...basically they have good players at the .most important positions on a football team.

My point is that the roster is much better than you are letting on. The team wasnt desperate for pass rush, in need of coverage help. The offensive line needed health and depth. Wide receiver was a weakness and it was aggressively filled with good prospects that are cheap.

Air Raid is a gimmick? LOL tell that to Andy Reid who runs alot of its concepts now.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm glad that the Cardinals dont follow the moves that @Solar7 wants the team to make.

Kirk Cousins would've led this team to crushing mediocrity.

 

[Solar7]

Nearly the same team won 8 games with a better coach and better QB play.

The Cardinals have a probably hall of Famer at CB, a Pro Bowl pass rusher, a good when healthy LT...basically they have good players at the .most important positions on a football team.

My point is that the roster is much better than you are letting on. The team wasnt desperate for pass rush, in need of coverage help. The offensive line needed health and depth. Wide receiver was a weakness and it was aggressively filled with good prospects that are cheap.

Air Raid is a gimmick? LOL tell that to Andy Reid who runs alot of its concepts now.

Round and round we go, this wasn't nearly the same team as the year before. And the coaching was out of this world. Sure, we had three positions, but we also changed our defensive scheme, making those players ineffective. We currently don't have that HOF CB for the season, our linebackers were a joke and are still a major weakness, our defensive line is a bunch of whatever... and that's ignoring the offense, where no one can stay healthy on the offensive line, and we have a bunch of rookie wideouts.

This team has a loooooong way to go.

I'm glad that the Cardinals dont follow the moves that @Solar7 wants the team to make.

Kirk Cousins would've led this team to crushing mediocrity.

And sure, keep rolling out the Kirk Cousins thing, but let's ignore the fact I was kicking and screaming to go up and get one of Deshaun Watson or Patrick Mahomes the year before.

I can cop to Cousins being a bad choice - I had no idea how poor the talent really was on this team last year, not to mention the coaching.

 

[PACardsFan]

tall QB

LOL! Judgement comes by half time of the first game

It certainly did last year when the paltry Skins offense had 22 first downs at the half & we had 2. I told both my sons at halftime of the 1st game that we are probably watching the worst Cardinal team in history. At least the worst coached Cardinal team in history. We all pretty much knew at that point in time that the Wilks hire was a debacle. Being the decent person that I am, I don't think I called for his scalp until game 3 or 4. I would be shocked beyond shocked if we saw anything remotely as ugly as that in our opener this year.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Round and round we go, this wasn't nearly the same team as the year before.

Roster wise it was. You can say it wasn't, but the team had very little turnover.

And the coaching was out of this world. Sure, we had three positions, but we also changed our defensive scheme, making those players ineffective.

Yes Arians was a good offensive coach. Bettcher was ok. Amos Jones was dreadful. What does "sure we had three positions" mean? Are you saying that the roster didn't change much but it was the scheme that was the problem? That's my argument.

We currently don't have that HOF CB for the season,.

Irrelevant to my comment that the roster was better last year than the results would indicate.

our linebackers were a joke and are still a major weakness,

I agree they were last year, but Jones, Suggs, Hicks, and Reddick isn't a major weakness. Two good pass rushers, a good ILB, and a ILB who is improving. Not a major weakness. The depth isn't great but it's not bad enough that you can call it a major weakness.

our defensive line is a bunch of whatever...

Solid. Not spectacular, but shouldn't be an embarrassment. Jones and Suggs will make the pass rush pretty good...the Cardinals had a top 5 pass rush last year if IIRC.

and that's ignoring the offense, where no one can stay healthy on the offensive line, and we have a bunch of rookie wideouts.

The offense is a work in progress, but with Kirk, Fitz, DJ, you have three targets that are pretty good. The rookies don't have to be great right away. The offensive line needs to stay healthy, but they can be solid.

This team has a loooooong way to go.

Offensively sure, but on the defense the pass rush should be solid and the secondary has some depth for once.

And sure, keep rolling out the Kirk Cousins thing, but let's ignore the fact I was kicking and screaming to go up and get one of Deshaun Watson or Patrick Mahomes the year before.

I can cop to Cousins being a bad choice - I had no idea how poor the talent really was on this team last year, not to mention the coaching.

You can search this forum and you will see that I was calling for Mahomes as well and a lot of the usual darksider types were saying some of the same poo you are saying about Murray about Mahomes. "Gimmick offense".

Cousins just sucks dude. He is the ultimate 8-8 QB who loses close games.

 

[kerouac9]

Roster wise it was. You can say it wasn't, but the team had very little turnover.

Erm. I'd argue that is not true. The downgrade from Carson Palmer to 2018 Sam Bradford proved to be steep. John Brown wasn't as good as we hoped he'd be, but there were no weapons on that offense, including David Johnson. The offensive line was completely remade on the right side, and still sucked.

I think that if Arians had remained coach of the Cardinals, that offense would look very different.

On the defense, I agree that the biggest failure was a coaching staff that wasn't ready for prime time. That unit was arguably better (with the return of Markus Golden and the ascendance of Budda Baker) than the previous year's, but it stunk. The absolute season-long clownshow at the CB position opposite Peterson was inexplicable and is relatively forgotten because the offense was so putrid.

 

[Solar7]

Roster wise it was. You can say it wasn't, but the team had very little turnover.



Yes Arians was a good offensive coach. Bettcher was ok. Amos Jones was dreadful. What does "sure we had three positions" mean? Are you saying that the roster didn't change much but it was the scheme that was the problem? That's my argument.



Irrelevant to my comment that the roster was better last year than the results would indicate.



I agree they were last year, but Jones, Suggs, Hicks, and Reddick isn't a major weakness. Two good pass rushers, a good ILB, and a ILB who is improving. Not a major weakness. The depth isn't great but it's not bad enough that you can call it a major weakness.



Solid. Not spectacular, but shouldn't be an embarrassment. Jones and Suggs will make the pass rush pretty good...the Cardinals had a top 5 pass rush last year if IIRC.



The offense is a work in progress, but with Kirk, Fitz, DJ, you have three targets that are pretty good. The rookies don't have to be great right away. The offensive line needs to stay healthy, but they can be solid.




Offensively sure, but on the defense the pass rush should be solid and the secondary has some depth for once.




You can search this forum and you will see that I was calling for Mahomes as well and a lot of the usual darksider types were saying some of the same **** you are saying about Murray about Mahomes. "Gimmick offense".

Cousins just sucks dude. He is the ultimate 8-8 QB who loses close games.

I don't know why you're still using Kirk Cousins as your argument. I said I was wrong. Have you never been wrong on this board? Keep in mind, our boy Keim offered him the farm and Cousins declined. We're one decision away from Cousins having been our guy, it's not like Keim made the football decision to pass on that contract or his evaluation of the player.

"Three positions" was you referencing the pass rusher, LT, and CB. Nothing more.

Suggs we can barely count on - we don't even know if he showed up to OTAs, he's had some terrible injuries, and is in his late 30s. I don't think we're getting a full year of him, and then it's up to Brooks Reed? Meh. Reddick's bad. Not "improving," just plainly bad. Hicks is injury-prone and I sure hope he pulls it off. Chandler Jones is a shining star and I love him.

I don't think our defense will be an embarrassment, but it wasn't last year. I'd think it would be better, but without PP21, things are going to be rough to start. Sad, because I think the best shots for us to win games are going to be early on.

I don't know what to make of the offense yet, besides thinking it's too young at the moment, and will begin to show signs of life later into the season.

As far as the rest goes, I don't doubt the Air Raid as a fully functional and successful college offense. I do think that the future of the NFL is the Air Raid, too. I only call it a "gimmick offense" for Kliff because I'm worried he's going to lean into it way too hard too early. 5-10 years from now, it might be the way the NFL is played exclusively.

Mahomes had all of the measurements, a great sample size, interviewed incredibly well, and did all of the workouts. The offense was the only thing hurting him. If it weren't for Mahomes and Mayfield though, Kyler probably would have been a 3rd round pick. Or in baseball.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Erm. I'd argue that is not true. The downgrade from Carson Palmer to 2018 Sam Bradford proved to be steep. John Brown wasn't as good as we hoped he'd be, but there were no weapons on that offense, including David Johnson. The offensive line was completely remade on the right side, and still sucked.

I think that if Arians had remained coach of the Cardinals, that offense would look very different.

On the defense, I agree that the biggest failure was a coaching staff that wasn't ready for prime time. That unit was arguably better (with the return of Markus Golden and the ascendance of Budda Baker) than the previous year's, but it stunk. The absolute season-long clownshow at the CB position opposite Peterson was inexplicable and is relatively forgotten because the offense was so putrid.

Most of the starters remained the same. John Brown provided around what Kirk provided.

 

[kerouac9]

Most of the starters remained the same. John Brown provided around what Kirk provided.

So... Are we counting Washed David Johnson and his 1 game in 2018 as a "starter" from that 8-8 team?

Here are the https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201709100det.htmhttps://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201709100det.htm:

Carson Palmer QB- Gone
David Johnson RB
John Brown WR - Gone
Larry Fitzgerald WR
Jaron Brown WR- Gone
Jermaine Gresham TE- PUP
D.J. Humphries LT
Mike Iupati LG
A.Q. Shipley C- IR
Evan Boehm RG- Gone
Jared Veldheer RT- Gone
Josh Mauro DL- Gone
Frostee Rucker DL- Gone
Corey Peters DL
Markus Golden WILL
Karlos Dansby ILB
Haason Reddick SLB
Chandler Jones SAM
Patrick Peterson LCB
Justin Bethel RCB- Gone
Tyvon Branch SS- Gone
Tyrann Mathieu FS- Gone

Here are the Week 1 starters from 2018:
SAm Bradford QB- New
David Johnson RB
Derrick Coleman FB- New
Larry Fitzgerald WR
Ricky Seals-Jones TE
Gabe Holmes TE- New/Who?
D.J. Humphries LT
Mike Iupati LG
Mason Cole C- New
Justin Pugh RG- New
Andre Smith RT-New
Chandler Jones DE
Benson Mayowa DE- New
Corey Peters DT
Robert Nkemdiche DT
Josh Bynes MLB
Deone Bucannon WLB
Patrick Peterson CB
Jamar Taylor CB- New
Budda Baker SS
Antoine Bethea FS
Tre Boston S- New

So... 12 of 22 starters from the previous season were unavailable, and 9 of 22 starters in 2019 were altogether new to the team, with several more (Diche', Buc, Baker, Bynes, Seals-Jones) rising to the starting lineup.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don't know why you're still using Kirk Cousins as your argument. I said I was wrong. Have you never been wrong on this board? Keep in mind, our boy Keim offered him the farm and Cousins declined.

Reportedly. You have no proof that this is true.

"Three positions" was you referencing the pass rusher, LT, and CB. Nothing more.

Three of the four most important positions, and hardest to fill. Humphries is an injury concern though.

Suggs we can barely count on - we don't even know if he showed up to OTAs, he's had some terrible injuries, and is in his late 30s.

Terrible injuries? Years ago. He was productive last year. You can count on him to be your 2nd best pass rusher.

I don't think we're getting a full year of him,.

Anything to support that assumption other than his age? He was still productive last year.

and then it's up to Brooks Reed?

He's a backup. This isn't Madden where you can build out all star teams. Most teams don't have a ton of backup pass rushers better than Brooks Reed.

Meh. Reddick's bad. Not "improving," just plainly bad. Hicks is injury-prone and I sure hope he pulls it off. Chandler Jones is a shining star and I love him.

Again, not every team has stars at every position. By the end of the year, Reddick played fairly decently. Hicks has had some injuries, but Free Agents are either A) Cost more than their prior team wants to pay them (which begs the question, why should you pay them?) B) Injured C) They suck. Teams rarely let perfect players hit the market.

I don't think our defense will be an embarrassment, but it wasn't last year. I'd think it would be better, but without PP21, things are going to be rough to start. Sad, because I think the best shots for us to win games are going to be early on.

I don't disagree, but CB does have some decent depth now. Alford, Murphy, Amerson, and Brock isn't an embarrassment. It's actually one of the better CB depth charts the Cardinals have had since I've watched the team.

I don't know what to make of the offense yet, besides thinking it's too young at the moment, and will begin to show signs of life later into the season.

The offense is a huge ? but it would be with Rosen as well. I think there will be a learning curve just like there was with Arians.

As far as the rest goes, I don't doubt the Air Raid as a fully functional and successful college offense. I do think that the future of the NFL is the Air Raid, too. I only call it a "gimmick offense" for Kliff because I'm worried he's going to lean into it way too hard too early. 5-10 years from now, it might be the way the NFL is played exclusively.

Mahomes had all of the measurements, a great sample size, interviewed incredibly well, and did all of the workouts. The offense was the only thing hurting him. If it weren't for Mahomes and Mayfield though, Kyler probably would have been a 3rd round pick. Or in baseball.

The offense didn't hurt him and it didn't hurt Mayfield either. It didn't hurt Goff either.

If you look at what the Cardinals have done by bringing in Clements and Kugler, they brought in guys with traditional NFL offensive backgrounds that will help meld K2's offensive concepts into NFL offensive concepts. I'm excited to see it.

 

[Solar7]

Reportedly. You have no proof that this is true.




Three of the four most important positions, and hardest to fill. Humphries is an injury concern though.



Terrible injuries? Years ago. He was productive last year. You can count on him to be your 2nd best pass rusher.



Anything to support that assumption other than his age? He was still productive last year.



He's a backup. This isn't Madden where you can build out all star teams. Most teams don't have a ton of backup pass rushers better than Brooks Reed.



Again, not every team has stars at every position. By the end of the year, Reddick played fairly decently. Hicks has had some injuries, but Free Agents are either A) Cost more than their prior team wants to pay them (which begs the question, why should you pay them?) B) Injured C) They suck. Teams rarely let perfect players hit the market.



I don't disagree, but CB does have some decent depth now. Alford, Murphy, Amerson, and Brock isn't an embarrassment. It's actually one of the better CB depth charts the Cardinals have had since I've watched the team.



The offense is a huge ? but it would be with Rosen as well. I think there will be a learning curve just like there was with Arians.



The offense didn't hurt him and it didn't hurt Mayfield either. It didn't hurt Goff either.

If you look at what the Cardinals have done by bringing in Clements and Kugler, they brought in guys with traditional NFL offensive backgrounds that will help meld K2's offensive concepts into NFL offensive concepts. I'm excited to see it.

I'm not fighting you on the offense hurting any of those QBs. If you think you can rely on a 38 year old player at ANY position in football for a whole season, c'mon man.

And "reportedly?" Well, yeah, Keim doesn't post here. I can't go make him knock on your door and prove it. But I'll take the word of a ton of different news outlets.

 

[Krangodnzr]

So... Are we counting Washed David Johnson and his 1 game in 2018 as a "starter" from that 8-8 team?

Here are the https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201709100det.htmhttps://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201709100det.htm:

Carson Palmer QB- Gone
David Johnson RB
John Brown WR - Gone
Larry Fitzgerald WR
Jaron Brown WR- Gone
Jermaine Gresham TE- PUP
D.J. Humphries LT
Mike Iupati LG
A.Q. Shipley C- IR
Evan Boehm RG- Gone
Jared Veldheer RT- Gone
Josh Mauro DL- Gone
Frostee Rucker DL- Gone
Corey Peters DL
Markus Golden WILL
Karlos Dansby ILB
Haason Reddick SLB
Chandler Jones SAM
Patrick Peterson LCB
Justin Bethel RCB- Gone
Tyvon Branch SS- Gone
Tyrann Mathieu FS- Gone

Here are the Week 1 starters from 2018:
SAm Bradford QB- New
David Johnson RB
Derrick Coleman FB- New
Larry Fitzgerald WR
Ricky Seals-Jones TE
Gabe Holmes TE- New/Who?
D.J. Humphries LT
Mike Iupati LG
Mason Cole C- New
Justin Pugh RG- New
Andre Smith RT-New
Chandler Jones DE
Benson Mayowa DE- New
Corey Peters DT
Robert Nkemdiche DT
Josh Bynes MLB
Deone Bucannon WLB
Patrick Peterson CB
Jamar Taylor CB- New
Budda Baker SS
Antoine Bethea FS
Tre Boston S- New

So... 12 of 22 starters from the previous season were unavailable, and 9 of 22 starters in 2019 were altogether new to the team, with several more (Diche', Buc, Baker, Bynes, Seals-Jones) rising to the starting lineup.

Yeah more change than I thought but a lot of the same core players. Bethea, Bynes, Baker, Seals-Jones, Nkemdiche all played the year before, so it's not roster turnover for them.

And then you question, what losses really hurt. I would say not many; Palmer barely played and wasn't great before his injury. He wasn't Bradford/Rosen bad, but he wasn't good either.

But I'll withdraw my point. The team changed a lot.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm not fighting you on the offense hurting any of those QBs. If you think you can rely on a 38 year old player at ANY position in football for a whole season, c'mon man.

All he has to do is be better than Golden/Mayowa was for it to be an upgrade. A 54 year old Suggs is better than those two.

And "reportedly?" Well, yeah, Keim doesn't post here. I can't go make him knock on your door and prove it. But I'll take the word of a ton of different news outlets.

Just like you fall back on third hand media reports that Murray wasn't good during interviews, even though everyone who knows him says he is. LOL.

Did Keim offer Cousins? He may have, but there isn't anything definitive to make that claim.

 

[Solar7]

All he has to do is be better than Golden/Mayowa was for it to be an upgrade. A 54 year old Suggs is better than those two.



Just like you fall back on third hand media reports that Murray wasn't good during interviews, even though everyone who knows him says he is. LOL.

Did Keim offer Cousins? He may have, but there isn't anything definitive to make that claim.

I don’t fall back on media reports, I’m talking about interviews I watched.

Dude, if you think there’s nothing definitive, you must think that free agency is this mysterious quagmire of non-truths. Do you think we also didn’t offer Peyton Manning anything because he didn’t sign here?

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don’t fall back on media reports, I’m talking about interviews I watched.

Dude, if you think there’s nothing definitive, you must think that free agency is this mysterious quagmire of non-truths. Do you think we also didn’t offer Peyton Manning anything because he didn’t sign here?

Peyton Manning visited.

There is concrete evidence that Manning was pursued.

You have no evidence that Keim pursued him.

 

[Solar7]

Peyton Manning visited.

There is concrete evidence that Manning was pursued.

You have no evidence that Keim pursued him.

K, so none of the paid journalists with connections throughout the league have any clout here? You’re ridiculously bad at making these arguments.

Keim, Kliff, and Kyler are perfect. Time to throw my hands up to K3.

 

[Krangodnzr]

K, so none of the paid journalists with connections throughout the league have any clout here? You’re ridiculously bad at making these arguments.

Keim, Kliff, and Kyler are perfect. Time to throw my hands up to K3.

Show one iota of proof.

You havent. Paid journalists get thrown off by BS all the time. For all you know Cousins agent made up an offer to up the ante.

 

[kerouac9]

Show one iota of proof.

You havent. Paid journalists get thrown off by BS all the time. For all you know Cousins agent made up an offer to up the ante.

Weren't you the guy who swallowed Max Hall's agent's spin that he turned down more bonus money to come here?

 

[Jasper]

In retrospective... seems the Cardinal front office said Jet was wrong and knew this coaching staff sucked by game two lol

I’ve always wondered if the office knew Wilks sucked, how did he get through the interview? Why was he hired? Who would have been next if Wlks wasn’t hired? Was Bettcher/Norv Turner/Pagano really under consideration?

 

[Solar7]

Show one iota of proof.

You havent. Paid journalists get thrown off by BS all the time. For all you know Cousins agent made up an offer to up the ante.

I don't know what you want as "proof." This is the NFL. I'm not a professional reporter, and if I had guaranteed contract terms for any NFL office, I wouldn't be working in marketing, I'd be working for a major sports conglomerate.

Where there's multiple reporters of relevance, there's fire.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Weren't you the guy who swallowed Max Hall's agent's spin that he turned down more bonus money to come here?

I cant remember. That was a very time time ago.

 

[cardpa]

According to this article the Cardinals had a serious interest in Cousins. If Minny hadn't offered him a obscene contract his next visit would probably been AZ.

http://arizonasports.com/story/1470200/cousins-sweepstakes-arizona-cardinals-mmqb/

 

[Krangodnzr]

According to this article the Cardinals had a serious interest in Cousins. If Minny hadn't offered him a obscene contract his next visit would probably been AZ.

http://arizonasports.com/story/1470200/cousins-sweepstakes-arizona-cardinals-mmqb/

Yep his agent.

 

[Solar7]

Yep his agent.

All fake news I guess, Krang? This is silly.

 

[wit3card]

After 5 games we should know were we stand.

 

[Krangodnzr]

All fake news I guess, Krang? This is silly.

Maybe it is....maybe it's not. Who knows?

If you buy all the rumors of teams I interest in players, you are gullible as hell. Half of that info is put out to drive players contracts up.

And people like you get duped by it and quote it as gospel. Yeah this is silly.