sportznutt
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Warner a Fraud?
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Totally_Red
Air Raid Warning!
Baloney! It was obvious the negotiations were deadlocked. Kurt went to San Francisco for two reason IMO. One, at his agent's request to gain some degree of leverage and test the market. Two, to confirm that the Niners offense really doesn't fit his skill set.
What I think will happen if Kurt is signed, probably later this week, and if Anquan re-ups later this spring, is that within a week (if the Cardinals follow through and request the reductions), Kurt will sign a revised contract at 1-million less per season.
Neither side is the bad guy in this situation as much as people want to take sides. The player (and agent) are trying to maximum the dollars (and protect Kurt from getting cut after year one). The team is trying to protect themselves in the event of a dramatic falloff in production or a career-threatening injury. In other words, it's business.
What I think will happen if Kurt is signed, probably later this week, and if Anquan re-ups later this spring, is that within a week (if the Cardinals follow through and request the reductions), Kurt will sign a revised contract at 1-million less per season.
Neither side is the bad guy in this situation as much as people want to take sides. The player (and agent) are trying to maximum the dollars (and protect Kurt from getting cut after year one). The team is trying to protect themselves in the event of a dramatic falloff in production or a career-threatening injury. In other words, it's business.
perivolaki
perivolaki
There is starting to be a backlash against Kurt. I was listening to NFL Radio and they were skewering KW. One of the guys was former player Ross Tucker and I'm not sure who the other guy was.
I won't comment much about the religion thing but they really questioned some of his statements and what his true motives are at least as it comes to these negotiations.
They also thought the money for Boldin was a cheap trick and a cheap shot at the Cardinals to try and make the Cards look bad and Kurt look good.
They felt that the trip to SF was just to try to drive up the price and that for all the talk he didn't really get a true offer from the 9ers and that he was never serious.
They felt that 10 million was more than fair and the Cards should have stuck with that and never moved off of it.
They also thought that all the guaranteed money should be put in the first year. They felt age was an issue and the Cards should be able to protect themselves in year two by having no guaranteed money in year two.
The most surprising thing was their comments on Kurt feeling he was under paid the last several years and who had the moral high ground in that area.
They said that Kurt should be thanking the Cardinals for the chance they gave him not the Cards thanking Kurt for saving the team and leading them to the SB.
They said Kurt was close to the NFL scrap heap when rescued by the Cardinals and given a second chance. If it weren't for the Cards he would have been out of the league.
Most teams after drafting a QB with the 10th pick would have given over the reigns to the young guy and Kurt would have been a backup much like what happened to him with the Giants. He should be thanking the Cards for really having a true open competition because most teams would have handed the keys to Leinart.
They said Kurt was a good QB but he is getting to much credit for the teams success and the Cardinals are getting to little for building the team and surrounding Kurt with a ton of talented young players.
Bottom line is they think should be very appreciative that he has what is really the perfect situation for his talents. They felt he should shut up, sign the contract, and thank his lucky stars that he's found himself in this position.
I won't comment much about the religion thing but they really questioned some of his statements and what his true motives are at least as it comes to these negotiations.
They also thought the money for Boldin was a cheap trick and a cheap shot at the Cardinals to try and make the Cards look bad and Kurt look good.
They felt that the trip to SF was just to try to drive up the price and that for all the talk he didn't really get a true offer from the 9ers and that he was never serious.
They felt that 10 million was more than fair and the Cards should have stuck with that and never moved off of it.
They also thought that all the guaranteed money should be put in the first year. They felt age was an issue and the Cards should be able to protect themselves in year two by having no guaranteed money in year two.
The most surprising thing was their comments on Kurt feeling he was under paid the last several years and who had the moral high ground in that area.
They said that Kurt should be thanking the Cardinals for the chance they gave him not the Cards thanking Kurt for saving the team and leading them to the SB.
They said Kurt was close to the NFL scrap heap when rescued by the Cardinals and given a second chance. If it weren't for the Cards he would have been out of the league.
Most teams after drafting a QB with the 10th pick would have given over the reigns to the young guy and Kurt would have been a backup much like what happened to him with the Giants. He should be thanking the Cards for really having a true open competition because most teams would have handed the keys to Leinart.
They said Kurt was a good QB but he is getting to much credit for the teams success and the Cardinals are getting to little for building the team and surrounding Kurt with a ton of talented young players.
Bottom line is they think should be very appreciative that he has what is really the perfect situation for his talents. They felt he should shut up, sign the contract, and thank his lucky stars that he's found himself in this position.
Unsterblich856
Hall of Famer
The article is written by Mike Florio who hates all things Cardinals and are trying to get his sheep to hate them. Ignore anything and everything he says unless there is irrefutable evidence stating otherwise.
azsouthendzone
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From anyone outside of az, yes everything the article says is true.
azsouthendzone
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That article supports the Cardinals.
Unsterblich856
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I didn't bother reading it. I just saw it was a Mike Florio article and thought he was going to make up another Cardinals slander story.
RonF
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I don't know where the fraud part enters the equation, Warner is doing all that he can to get as much as he can, the Cards are doing all they can to get him to sign a contract for as little as they can. Of course, it's difficult for us to wait for this to end, one way or the other.
Cbus cardsfan
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Another thing that will work against KW is on Urban's blog where he cites that there was never an offer from SF. That is just as alot of us had suspected. If there was an actual offer,the numbers would've been out there.
azsouthendzone
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Shogun
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If Warner regresses heavily, he will never hear the end of it.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
For those that would like to keep these sorts of things straight:
The Cardinals were not the only team willing to give Warner a chance, they were the only team willing to give him a chance to start. Which it ultimately still took an injury to the younger player for him to get them to fully commit to him as a starter. Basically, he would not have definitely been out of the league if he hadn't signed with the Cardinals.
The other thing that people are trying to latch onto is the 49ers not making him an offer. They didn't make a "formal" offer but it's been reported by SF writers that financial terms were discussed and Warner knew where the 49ers were coming from. Much like the Broncos now saying they never actually shopped Cutler and that he isn't available for trade discussions...now, it's just damage control after the fact. The 49ers are trying to save a little face or preparing their story to Shaun Hill or whatever.
The Cardinals were not the only team willing to give Warner a chance, they were the only team willing to give him a chance to start. Which it ultimately still took an injury to the younger player for him to get them to fully commit to him as a starter. Basically, he would not have definitely been out of the league if he hadn't signed with the Cardinals.
The other thing that people are trying to latch onto is the 49ers not making him an offer. They didn't make a "formal" offer but it's been reported by SF writers that financial terms were discussed and Warner knew where the 49ers were coming from. Much like the Broncos now saying they never actually shopped Cutler and that he isn't available for trade discussions...now, it's just damage control after the fact. The 49ers are trying to save a little face or preparing their story to Shaun Hill or whatever.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Or they just discussed rough parameters of a deal without coming to any kind of contract proposal...you know, as has been reported. I can spin it as Warner and Bartlestein lying about them making an offer, and you can spin it that their denial is just damage control. Neither of us can know anything for sure apart from Warner just trying to up the Cards asking price by running for the 49ers. The Warner camp can cry about not being respected and about the same 'ole Cards all they want, but the Warner camp is the side that decided to go out and play dirty. They want to pretend that this isn't a regular negotiation, that Kurt is a good guy that wouldn't operate on that moral plane. A pack of lies, my friend.
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Fraud is probably too strong but given Bay area reports today that the 49ers deny they ever actually made a formal offer to Kurt, saying he got a bigger offer from SF but turned it down to stay in arizona is dishonest?
Maybe SF is just mad and lying but bay area media is reporting the 49ers are not happy they feel used and they are in fact denying they ever made a formal offer to Kurt.
Shogun
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Even if the 49ers seriously tried to bring in Warner, it's not like Shaun Hill had reason or the pull to be upset. He's not exactly a world beater.
perivolaki
perivolaki
This what the guys on NFL Radio were saying. Kurt goes to SF and it's reported that he gets a big offer. The Cards raise their offer some. Kurt ends up taking the Cards offer and rides back into Arizona as hero having taken less money but really taking more money to save the poor Arizona Cardinals. He gets his cake and to eat it too.
From the guys on NFL radio it was just a little to conveinient. First SF just seems like a bad fit all the way around. Singletary wants to run even more than they did before and we know Kurt likes to throw. Their Offensive line is terrible at pass blocking and Kurt would have few targets to throw to.
Tucker says he knows how players look at contracts. If Kurt got an offer and it is as big as is being claimed why not accept it? If Kurt really has that value why aren't there any other teams in the picture? No one else but the Cards and 9ers think Kurt has value?
Like a lot of free agents they think Kurt is much more valuable to the Cardinals than anyone else. The 9ers know it, Kurt knows it, the Cards know it, and the rest of the league knows it. This is just a dog and pony show to try to get the Cardinals bidding against themselves.
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I think the perception is Warner and his agent have ESPN in their back pocket and whenever they want something out there, they leak it to John Clayton or someone else at ESPN and they report it as fact from their sources.
IN this case, the 49ers have essentially refuted the claim. McCloughan was quoted earlier in the visit about what a classy guy Kurt was and how happy they were to have a chance to meet with him. After Kurt left and these reports surfaced, McCloughan refused to comment and reporters seem to be saying he is furious with what Warner's camp did, use SF, claim they got an offer when theydidn't, just to make it look like Kurt is taking less to stay a Cardinal.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I'm not sure how "dirty" the tactic was. Warner was on the radio today talking about how he never wanted to go to SF in the first place. He said it was to a point where he had to start becoming more flexible to the idea of considering other options though. He said that it was shortly after the pro-bowl that he knew he was going to play in '09 and that he, even at that point, was thinking about the upcoming season and looking forward to getting back on the field. I think the Cardinals could have made this whole process a lot easier.
Ultimately, Warner's side didn't do anything that the Cardinals side wasn't doing in terms of tactics. Ultimately, they were able to settle on a deal that both apparently find acceptable but it was up to Warner to get it to that point. If he hadn't gone to SF it doesn't seem too likely that the Cardinals would have upped their offer.
Of course, what they were saying and what they kept doing seem to be at odds. Overall it was just a contract negotiation but I think the Cardinals shouldn't have done so much fate tempting. If they were willing to go to $19M guaranteed, I think they should have just got to that point before free agency and the whole sordid affair got rolling.
Ultimately, Warner's side didn't do anything that the Cardinals side wasn't doing in terms of tactics. Ultimately, they were able to settle on a deal that both apparently find acceptable but it was up to Warner to get it to that point. If he hadn't gone to SF it doesn't seem too likely that the Cardinals would have upped their offer.
Of course, what they were saying and what they kept doing seem to be at odds. Overall it was just a contract negotiation but I think the Cardinals shouldn't have done so much fate tempting. If they were willing to go to $19M guaranteed, I think they should have just got to that point before free agency and the whole sordid affair got rolling.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
No one will know for sure it just stands to reason that Warner and Bartlestein had some kind of idea of what the 49ers would be willing to give for his services. It was enough of a reality that the Cardinals upped their offer so I think there was something "real" being discussed.
I think it just depends on what aspect of it you're talking about. I don't think anyone's denying the fact that he was talking to SF to further his own position but he made it clear that he wouldn't have gone if there wasn't any chance of him considering their offer. Schefter and others who have talked about the trip all concede that it was a longshot situation at best but that however remote, there was a shot.
I think Warner needed to go to crystallize in his mind just how much he wanted to stay in Arizona.
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Warner's agent absolutely denied they used SF to up the offer. He denied it BEFORE they went there, while they were there, and after they left, without a firm offer.
they then apparently leaked to ESPN that they had an offer.
When McCloughan comes out and says we did not make a firm offer, he's doing that for a reason, because he knows ESPN is reporting they did, and he wants the truth out there. Bay area media has been quite clear on this, SF is mad at Warner and his agent, they feel used, they feel lied to, and they feel that Warner and his agent misled the media trying to make themselves look like good guys for taking less money when they never actually had an offer from SF.
When McCloughan was willing to put his name to the comments about not making an offer that spoke volumes, no "sources" just put my name on it.
perivolaki
perivolaki
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Graves also said that the trip to SF got both sides to get the deal done.
The trip just re-balanced the scales in negotiations. Warner screwed up his side of things by being openly loyal to the Cardinals last year and they tried to use it against him. And wouldn't budge on it thinking they had him over a barrel with no options. He just showed them that he did have options.
If Warner and his agent were true *****, they would have done everything the same but with the Rams instead of the 49ers. Imagine that for just a minute.
If Warner truly wanted to stick it to the Cardinals and stroke his own ego the Rams would have been the choice for such games. No one ever thought that Warner would end up with the 49ers but it still got Graves and the Cardinals to budge. And I still don't think Warner was using the 49ers in the sense that they didn't know what the situation was.
From all accounts, he only went to find out if playing somewhere else would appeal to him at this stage of his career. He knew right away that the 49ers wouldn't be a fit and after being schmoozed, he told them that he was going to have to sleep on it and went back to Arizona. If the 49ers are butt-hurt about that then they are overreacting. If Warner and Bartlestein made promises that they never intended to keep then I agree that it's wrong. Nothing in Warner's past would indicate him doing such a thing though.
Even after all is said and done he didn't get something that is earth shattering and crippling to the Cardinals salary cap.
