Warner/Bartelstein: NEW OFFER TO CARDS!! (reasonable)

[Stout]

I wasn't sure how I felt about it, but now that I've ruminated on the issue, I don't like the contract. That 6 mill guaranteed in the 2nd year really bugs me. The fact that it makes this a contract with virtually 19 mill guaranteed also bugs me. I'd counter, give him 9 mill in bonus this year, 5 mill in salary this season, 5 mill in salary next season, and 4 mill in attainable incentives, like hitting certain yardage and TD marks, for season 2. That way, he's virtually guaranteed 14 mill, and if he plays pretty well in season 2 he'll pretty much get the whole deal.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I wasn't sure how I felt about it, but now that I've ruminated on the issue, I don't like the contract. That 6 mill guaranteed in the 2nd year really bugs me. The fact that it makes this a contract with virtually 19 mill guaranteed also bugs me. I'd counter, give him 9 mill in bonus this year, 5 mill in salary this season, 5 mill in salary next season, and 4 mill in attainable incentives, like hitting certain yardage and TD marks, for season 2. That way, he's virtually guaranteed 14 mill, and if he plays pretty well in season 2 he'll pretty much get the whole deal.

We don't want ANY guaranteed money next year. We are going to be forced to restructure Matt because he will be due a 15M bonus next year. That's 20M (between KW and ML) in guaranteed money alone. (assuming we don't restructure) If we are going to restructure Matt, it will be to pay him. It makes no sense to restructure him, and then trade him.

 

[skfan]

Daves:

In any case, making a supportive statement and actually putting the terms in a contract are very, very different. I've never heard of a player actually proposing a contract where he'd get less if another player were given a more satisfactory contract.

Daves, meet Kurt Warner. He did it with the Rams, and he's now trying to do it for the Cards, to keep this team together.

Fitz won't be giving up money, he'll simply restructure, (stetch it out).

 

[dogpoo32]

But it also means 60 + yard TD passes on hot routes.

Only if the team was indoors. We got hot at the right time in the playoffs and it was a blast. Will lightning strike twice or do we need to build a team that is fit for any game any time?

 

[ajcardfan]

Only if the team was indoors. We got hot at the right time in the playoffs and it was a blast. Will lightning strike twice or do we need to build a team that is fit for any game any time?

Call me a sentamentalist, but I'm kind of attached to the team that didn't suck.

 

[Saxon079]

So you think 17M guaranteed is a fair amount for Warner?

That's more than Kerry Collins got for his entire deal.

O boy. Yup that"s the same thing. One QB's had 2,600 yards and 12 TD and 13 and 3 mark and got beat in the first round. And one had 4,600 yards 30 TD and took a 9 and 7 team to a SB. One counts on the defense to win the other does not.

 

[JeffGollin]

So are you saying that if Kurt plays part of this year and gets hurt we can drop him before year 2 and only pay him $12 mill? Or would he be paid $19 mill?

He'd be paid the $12-Mil plus the part of Year One he played in before he got injured. (This accumulated non-guaranteed income in Year One could be anywhere between Zero and $7-million dollars) - which would mean his total income for both years - should he get injured in Year One - could be between $12-mil and $19-Mil.

I like the deal - especially with the Boldin-incentive include. It would bring the total deal down to $21-Mil.

One sticky wicket that occurred to me just now: Would the $2-Mil Boldin incentive come out of Warner's guaranteed money? Or would it come out of the non-guarantee dollars?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

O boy. Yup that"s the same thing. One QB's had 2,600 yards and 12 TD and 13 and 3 mark and got beat in the first round. And one had 4,600 yards 30 TD and took a 9 and 7 team to a SB. One counts on the defense to win the other does not.

One has 3 1000 yard receivers, the other one has???

 

[Saxon079]

Only if the team was indoors. We got hot at the right time in the playoffs and it was a blast. Will lightning strike twice or do we need to build a team that is fit for any game any time?

I don't totally agree they did win in Carolina but that is the qwestion at hand. And IMO after not winning for so long I say go for it.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

So you think 17M guaranteed is a fair amount for Warner?

That's more than Kerry Collins got for his entire deal.

There's no comparison between Collins (caretaker) and Warner (playmaker).

If Kerry Collins had our running game and defense last year we'd have gone 5-11. People really need to stop looking at wins and losses as if they are actually some legit indicator of quarterback prowess.

 

[Saxon079]

One has 3 1000 yard receivers, the other one has???

I'm sorry for wasting my time your right lets trade for Collins he would do the same as Kurt did.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

2/23 keeps the core in place and is pretty reasonable when all is said and done. Who really gives a crap if Warner gets hurt and we are forced to pay him $6 million to ride the bench in 2010? He's earned as much in my book. Not to mention that year we'd likely be rebuilding at some level anyways.

Get it done Graves.

 

[dogpoo32]

I don't totally agree they did win in Carolina but that is the qwestion at hand. And IMO after not winning for so long I say go for it.

The defense dominated that game. Josh McCown at QB would have won that game. So, after not winning for so long, you would rather roll the dice with a 38 year old who says he is done in 2 years than build with a QB who has 2 years of the system under his belt and a decade to perfect it? I love the winning too! I want to be a juggernaut not a flash in the pan.

 

[ajcardfan]

2/23 keeps the core in place and is pretty reasonable when all is said and done. Who really gives a crap if Warner gets hurt and we are forced to pay him $6 million to ride the bench in 2010? He's earned as much in my book. Not to mention that year we'd likely be rebuilding at some level anyways.

Get it done Graves.

If we did get stuck with 6 mil on the books that is now less than 5% of the total cap. That's hardly devastating.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

There's no comparison between Collins (caretaker) and Warner (playmaker).

If Kerry Collins had our running game and defense last year we'd have gone 5-11. People really need to star looking at wins and losses as if they are actually some legit indicator of quarterback prowess.

If we had Lendale White and Chris Johnson, you don't think that we would have been able to run the ball, win, etc.

Look, the comparison has merit. Both are 38. Both are coming off of career years. Both are looking for 2 year deals. You tell members of the Titans that Kerry Collins wasn't valuable and important to their team's success.

The difference is that one of them settled for market value, and the other is trying to get nearly double what the market value is.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I'm sorry for wasting my time your right lets trade for Collins he would do the same as Kurt did.

You aren't wasting my time........ What else is there to talk about now?

Lets play the QB of the future that just barely lots his starting job to KW in the preseason. This put us in a situation next year where we know where we stand with Leinart. All the while, saving enough money to resign Q, Dansby, and have room for a few quality free agents.

 

[earthsci]

There's no comparison between Collins (caretaker) and Warner (playmaker).

If Kerry Collins had our running game and defense last year we'd have gone 5-11. People really need to star looking at wins and losses as if they are actually some legit indicator of quarterback prowess.

OK. Kerry Collins was 13-3.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Only if the team was indoors. We got hot at the right time in the playoffs and it was a blast. Will lightning strike twice or do we need to build a team that is fit for any game any time?

First, I seem to remeber Fitzgerald streaking down the field, OUTDOORS, in the Superbowl off a quick read.....but I might be mistaken.

I haven't seen anything that suggests this team is building anything this offseason.

With all the money we have under the cap I have yet to see any player brought in on the offensive side of the ball that will change this team to a power running game.

LaMont Jordan and John Kuhn are not going to be affected by whether we sign Warner or not.

I think it is apparent after the last three offseasons that the transformation of this team will be done through the draft. I think two years of passing the ball all over the field will be a good amount of time to get the team the running game it needs to find.

Futhermore, the Giants were supposidely a team that was built to win at any moment or time, and got beat. Same with the Titans.

The Cardinals have enough to get them into the playoff for the next two years, and think that Warner gives them a chance to go all the way, IF he can keep his play up.

I see where you are coming from but this team is more than 1 or 2 players away from being a "Good running team with a great defense".

We need at least two OLB, another solid DB, a blocking TE, a power running back, a speed running back, and an interior OL-man that can push the pile.

Or we can sign Warner and continue to spin the rock all over the field and win while trying to acquire those things listed above.

 

[Pariah]

It's official: I'm tired of this.

Bring on Leinart. For better or worse, he's the QBoF and we need to know if it's the former or the latter (better or worse).

 

[dreamcastrocks]

First, I seem to remeber Fitzgerald streaking down the field, OUTDOORS, in the Superbowl off a quick read.....but I might be mistaken.

Nice, warm, sunny weather with very little wind. Kurt knows how to play in those conditions.... very dome like.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

You aren't wasting my time........ What else is there to talk about now?

Lets play the QB of the future that just barely lots his starting job to KW in the preseason. This put us in a situation next year where we know where we stand with Leinart. All the while, saving enough money to resign Q, Dansby, and have room for a few quality free agents.

Without signing Warner, why sign Q ?

I don't see the Cardinals spending $$$ in free agency.....they never have and doubt they will all of a sudden start to.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Nice, warm, sunny weather with very little wind. Kurt knows how to play in those conditions.... very dome like.

So in windy, or rainy, or snowy conditions Warner can't pass.........well I guess he should join the other 32 starting QB's in that category.

 

[daves]

In any case, making a supportive statement and actually putting the terms in a contract are very, very different. I've never heard of a player actually proposing a contract where he'd get less if another player were given a more satisfactory contract.

Daves, meet Kurt Warner. He did it with the Rams, and he's now trying to do it for the Cards, to keep this team together.

Fitz won't be giving up money, he'll simply restructure, (stetch it out).

Indeed... what i meant was that, until now i've never heard of a player putting his offer to take less into a contract. I was contrasting Warner's current stance with Fitzgerald's statement, which amounts to much less. But then Big Deal pointed out that that's what he meant in the first place.

And furthermore, some posters who are pretty knowledgeable about NFL contracts have said that the NFL or NFLPA would never allow the kind of clause that Warner's agent mentioned to be finalized in a contract anyway.

So, nevermind!

...dave

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Without signing Warner, why sign Q ?

I don't see the Cardinals spending $$$ in free agency.....they never have and doubt they will all of a sudden start to.

Why did we ever resign Q in the first place? We didn't have Warner then.

Oh right.... that's because Warner makes Q look like a bargain......

 

[Pariah]

Hey Dave, how many of you are there?