Warner/Bartelstein: NEW OFFER TO CARDS!! (reasonable)

[dreamcastrocks]

So in windy, or rainy, or snowy conditions Warner can't pass.........well I guess he should join the other 32 starting QB's in that category.

Proof is in the pudding my friend.

 

[dogpoo32]

First, I seem to remeber Fitzgerald streaking down the field, OUTDOORS, in the Superbowl off a quick read.....but I might be mistaken.

I haven't seen anything that suggests this team is building anything this offseason.

With all the money we have under the cap I have yet to see any player brought in on the offensive side of the ball that will change this team to a power running game.

LaMont Jordan and John Kuhn are not going to be affected by whether we sign Warner or not.

I think it is apparent after the last three offseasons that the transformation of this team will be done through the draft. I think two years of passing the ball all over the field will be a good amount of time to get the team the running game it needs to find.

Futhermore, the Giants were supposidely a team that was built to win at any moment or time, and got beat. Same with the Titans.

The Cardinals have enough to get them into the playoff for the next two years, and think that Warner gives them a chance to go all the way, IF he can keep his play up.

I see where you are coming from but this team is more than 1 or 2 players away from being a "Good running team with a great defense".

We need at least two OLB, another solid DB, a blocking TE, a power running back, a speed running back, and an interior OL-man that can push the pile.

Or we can sign Warner and continue to spin the rock all over the field and win while trying to acquire those things listed above.

I agree that the team is more than one or two players away. If we were missing one or two players, I would be more comfortable letting Kurt play 2 more. The thing is last year feels like it was the best shot. We "weren't supposed to be there." If Kurt falls on his face next year, which he has proven he is more than capable of, where does that leave us? Best case scenario is we can keep Matt around and happy. Otherwise we start all over.

 

[JeffGollin]

Word of Caution

There's no comparison between Collins (caretaker) and Warner (playmaker).

If Kerry Collins had our running game and defense last year we'd have gone 5-11. People really need to star looking at wins and losses as if they are actually some legit indicator of quarterback prowess.

Football is a game of possibilities & probabilities/not definites.

Who's to say how many more games (if any) we'd win with Kurt at QB instead of Collins?

Who's to say how many more games (if any) we'd win with Kurt at QB instead of Matt Leinart. Or St. Pierre. Or Palko.

Who's to say Kurt will stay healthy for 40 straight games (i.e. all the way to the Super Bowl in 2 more straight years)?

These are all judgment calls. The hardest one is figuring out how many more games we'd win under Warner than we would under Leinart (My gut tells me it could be 3; but quite possibly it could be 6. Or, conversely, perhaps Matt has quietly developed so well behind the scenes that he's every bit as good as Kurt or even better).

You plays the odds, rolls the dice and takes your chances.

The way I view it is like this: We're finally on top. Why fix what ain't broke.? The fewer changes we make that might discombobulate our offensive machine, the better. I'd make sure Warner, Boldin and Fitz were signed and happy. And I'd be inclined to bring Edge back as well. (The only tweaking on offense I might consider would be at TE or the O-line. The only other significant tweaking I'd do would be on defense - mainly at CB and S).

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

If we had Lendale White and Chris Johnson, you don't think that we would have been able to run the ball, win, etc.

No, because for Lendale White, Chris Johnson, and the infallible greatness of Kerry Collins the Tennesee Titans were a mediocre offensive football team. Great defense + mediocre offense = Winning Football
Mediocre offense + bad defense = Losing Football

Look, the comparison has merit. Both are 38. Both are coming off of career years. Both are looking for 2 year deals. You tell members of the Titans that Kerry Collins wasn't valuable and important to their team's success.

Not saying he wasn't valuable (of course he was compared to the turnover machine Vince Young), you just can't compare him and Warner's 2008 campaigns. Warner was significantly better in every single statistical category used to judge QB's and has had a much better career as a whole.

The difference is that one of them settled for market value, and the other is trying to get nearly double what the market value is.

No, Kurt's market value is much higher than Collins just as it has always been.

 

[perivolaki]

We don't want ANY guaranteed money next year. We are going to be forced to restructure Matt because he will be due a 15M bonus next year. That's 20M (between KW and ML) in guaranteed money alone. (assuming we don't restructure) If we are going to restructure Matt, it will be to pay him. It makes no sense to restructure him, and then trade him.

Heres the problem though, what incentive does Matty have to restructure?

If Kurts is still here and playing Matty will want out. What better way than to refuse to restructure his contract. If we cut him he can go where he wants and get another contract. If we keep him he gets his 15 million and then he will end being a free agent and we lose him anyway.

We will be between a rock and a hard place.

The only out is if all the guaranteed money on Kurts contract is in year one and he sucks. If he plays lights out this year we will be forced to bring him back next year and probably cut or trade Matty.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Heres the problem though, what incentive does Matty have to restructure?

If Kurts is still here and playing Matty will want out. What better way than to refuse to restructure his contract. If we cut him he can go where he wants and get another contract. If we keep him he gets his 15 million and then he will end being a free agent and we lose him anyway.

We will be between a rock and a hard place.

The only out is if all the guaranteed money on Kurts contract is in year one and he sucks. If he plays lights out this year we will be forced to bring him back next year and probably cut or trade Matty.

1. He avoids being cut. or
2. Gives him tremendous leverage in trade talks.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Why did we ever resign Q in the first place? We didn't have Warner then.

Oh right.... that's because Warner makes Q look like a bargain......

I have confidence in Leinart, but to run the show like Warner does without a run game, I don't.

I like Leinart, and wanted to see him our starter at the beginning of last year, but as for winning right now ? I don't think he has the players around him to succeed.

If you don't sign Warner, then why re-sign Boldin ? Trade Boldin, and bring in a blocking TE, a quality RB or two, and some big nasty OL-men. I would be thrilled with that scenario.

But that would take a lot of moving and shaking by the Cardinals front office. The same front office that is involved in the current fiasco we are debating, and the same that had 3 mid-tier free agents in for coffee and doughnuts.

Sitting a week into free agency I don't see the Cardinals changing the roster.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

OK. Kerry Collins was 13-3.

I meant "stop" looking at wins and losses only to determine individual value as they're essentially meaningless. Does Calvin Johnson suck because the Lions went 0-16?

 

[Dayman]

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/03/03/no-real-offer-from-san-fran-for-warner/

Though the Kurt Warner camp apparently is trying to get the Arizona Cardinals

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to think that the 49ers offered the free-agent quarterback considerably more than the amount the Cards have put on the table (aided by John Clayton of ESPN, who seems to be pushing whatever Mark Bartelstein is feeding him, and Mark Schlereth and Marcellus Wiley of ESPN’s NFL Live, whose pro-Warner monologues merit them a piece of Bartelstein’s fee), a league source tells us that the 49ers ultimately made “no real offer” to Warner.
We’re not sure what that means, but we’ll infer that it means the 49ers didn’t offer anything significantly more than what the Cardinals already have on the table, since it’s clear that if all things are equal Warner will stay in Arizona.
Meanwhile, for a guy who is trying to get market value, there still isn’t much of a market for his services. Maybe being in his late 30s and having one of the best wideouts in a generation catching Kurt’s passes is making people realize that there’s still a gap between Warner and the truly elite NFL

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quarterbacks.

Not too surprising, if true.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Proof is in the pudding my friend.

Agreed. That was a great win in Carolina, outside, and in wet conditions.

 

[earthsci]

I meant "stop" looking at wins and losses to determe individual value as they're essentially meaningless. Does Calvin Johnson suck because the Lions went 0-16?

Gotcha. I saw this...

People really need to star looking...

and thought that you left out the "T".

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Does Calvin Johnson suck because the Lions went 0-16?

Definately NOT!

That guy is a freak of nature.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I have confidence in Leinart, but to run the show like Warner does without a run game, I don't.

I like Leinart, and wanted to see him our starter at the beginning of last year, but as for winning right now ? I don't think he has the players around him to succeed.

If you don't sign Warner, then why re-sign Boldin ? Trade Boldin, and bring in a blocking TE, a quality RB or two, and some big nasty OL-men. I would be thrilled with that scenario.

But that would take a lot of moving and shaking by the Cardinals front office. The same front office that is involved in the current fiasco we are debating, and the same that had 3 mid-tier free agents in for coffee and doughnuts.

Sitting a week into free agency I don't see the Cardinals changing the roster.

Why, because I believe that Matt can hit Q on the intermediate stuff that Q has thrived on his entire career. I believe that Matt can throw the ball down the field to Fitz and let him go get it just like Kurt did. I believe that Breaston is more the reason of his breakout year, than Kurt was throwing to him and he can still improve next year.

 

[slanidrac16]

We've all been played.

Cards offer 20m for 2 years.
Warner wants 29 m for 2 years.
Cards up their offer to between 20 and 22 m for 2 years.
Warner goes to the 49ers.
Cards up their offer to 23 mil for 2 years.
Warners agent counter offers 23 m for 2 years(???).

Cards look good.
Warner looks good.

Now it all comes down to the structure off the deal.

All the while we're losing sleep about it.

 

[perivolaki]

These are all judgment calls. The hardest one is figuring out how many more games we'd win under Warner than we would under Leinart (My gut tells me it could be 3; but quite possibly it could be 6. Or, conversely, perhaps Matt has quietly developed so well behind the scenes that he's every bit as good as Kurt or even better).

You plays the odds, rolls the dice and takes your chances.

I like your post with on small quibble. Warner will be 38 next season. The odds are getting higher every year he plays that he will play worse.

On the other hand as Matty grows and learns and matures is almost a given that he will get better.

The odds get better for Matt and worse for Kurt every year.

The difficulty is in finding where those two lines on the graph merge.

 

[Perfectionist]

Wow, I just read every post in this thread (believe it or not) and I only have one thing to say. No Ali, Frazier fight was more intertaining.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Agreed. That was a great win in Carolina, outside, and in wet conditions.

Hey, that was a great game by him. Conditions were much better on the field that day than were expected.

But this is like saying Kurt Warner has a great record in domes because he whopped on Miami at home.

One game does a reputation not make.
Excuse the line, learning Japanese is making me sound more and more like Yoda.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Why, because I believe that Matt can hit Q on the intermediate stuff that Q has thrived on his entire career. I believe that Matt can throw the ball down the field to Fitz and let him go get it just like Kurt did. I believe that Breaston is more the reason of his breakout year, than Kurt was throwing to him and he can still improve next year.

Ah, so that is where we disagree.

I believe Leinart, and his past has proven this, can be a great down the field QB. This B.S. about his arm strength doesn't mean jack, because he throws a great long ball with touch. He showed it last year in Minnesota, and during his rookie year.

His game seems to thrive off the play action pass. He is a good confident leader, and knows how to win.

As for checking down, throwing hot routes, quick outs, quick slantes, and such......not so much.

Thus I will take Leinart with a run games any day. But Leinart in the shotgun, reading blitz's and running the no huddle....no I don't like that idea at all.

Needless to say at the beginning of the year, I thought the Cardinalas were going to start running the ball much better than they have, and that the defense (Alan Branch is a jerk) was going to be WAY better.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Hey, that was a great game by him. Conditions were much better on the field that day than were expected.

But this is like saying Kurt Warner has a great record in domes because he whopped on Miami at home.

One game does a reputation not make.
Excuse the line, learning Japanese is making me sound more and more like Yoda.

Agreed.

And Yoda rocks cause he is the ultimate bad ass.

Plus on a serious note, none of this will matter cause the real answer is sitting in plain view......just look to the left of your screen.

 

[Dayman]

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/03/warner-expected-to-stay-in-arizona/

By the end of the week, QB Kurt Warner likely will return to Arizona, according to league sources. It’s where he wants to be, where the Cardinals want him to be, and the San Francisco 49ers aren’t expected to make the type of push for him that some believed they would.

The 49ers knew it was, at best, a longshot to pry away Warner. But they entertained a visit with him Monday anyway before Warner returned to Arizona to think about his decision.

But after Warner thinks about it, he will realize that the 49ers are expected to go in a different direction, and he is expected to return to the same direction.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Deal not such a slam dunk according to Kent Somers:

Kent Somers
Contract language

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/KentSomers/47482

...But, according to someone familiar with the offer, the guarantees don't include the $7 million salary in the first year. Since Warner is almost assured of that, the guaranteed money could be calculated as $19 million. That means only $4 million of the deal, presumably the salary in the second year, is not guaranteed.
I don't think the Cardinals will be in a rush to sign it. Negotiations continue.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Ah, so that is where we disagree.

I believe Leinart, and his past has proven this, can be a great down the field QB. This B.S. about his arm strength doesn't mean jack, because he throws a great long ball with touch. He showed it last year in Minnesota, and during his rookie year.

His game seems to thrive off the play action pass. He is a good confident leader, and knows how to win.

As for checking down, throwing hot routes, quick outs, quick slantes, and such......not so much.

Thus I will take Leinart with a run games any day. But Leinart in the shotgun, reading blitz's and running the no huddle....no I don't like that idea at all.

Needless to say at the beginning of the year, I thought the Cardinalas were going to start running the ball much better than they have, and that the defense (Alan Branch is a jerk) was going to be WAY better.

We agree more than we disagree. There's a reason why Warner had to be in shotgun. We couldn't manage to not trip over Seidlein's foot less than once a game. He also has poor footwork. Unless if starts off in a throwing position, and not doing a 5/7 step drop, his accuracy has been suffering recently.

I agree with Leinart and the playaction. Just because Warner was in the shotgun 65% of the time, doesn't mean that we would expect Leinart to. The playaction sets up the deep ball, and I have no doubts that Leinart can throw the ball 45-50 yards in the air.

 

[Cards232]

We agree more than we disagree. There's a reason why Warner had to be in shotgun. We couldn't manage to not trip over Seidlein's foot less than once a game. He also has poor footwork. Unless if starts off in a throwing position, and not doing a 5/7 step drop, his accuracy has been suffering recently.

I agree with Leinart and the playaction. Just because Warner was in the shotgun 65% of the time, doesn't mean that we would expect Leinart to. The playaction sets up the deep ball, and I have no doubts that Leinart can throw the ball 45-50 yards in the air.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever played football, qb? Do you know much about the mechanics of qb, footwork? From start to finish, Warner's mechanics are impeccable, including his footwork. Part of the reason they go shotgun a lot is b/c it gives Warner that split second more to wait & read while the route develops, much the same for other teams that use the shotgun. We have a good o-line not a great one. Every split second counts. That would be the same for Matt, probably more for Matt actually, cause he can't read as fast.

 

[Russ Smith]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever played football, qb? Do you know much about the mechanics of qb, footwork? From start to finish, Warner's mechanics are impeccable, including his footwork. Part of the reason they go shotgun a lot is b/c it gives Warner that split second more to wait & read while the route develops, much the same for other teams that use the shotgun. We have a good o-line not a great one. Every split second counts. That would be the same for Matt, probably more for Matt actually, cause he can't read as fast.

So why did he keep falling over trying to hand teh ball off because he kept tripping over his C? Remember even ex NFL Qb's like Aikman and Boomer both said on air the problem was Warner, not Sendlein, that Warner was taking too long pulling out from C because he is too used to the shotgun.

IF the reports are true, the Cards should tell Warner since you lied to us about SF's actual offer, we're going back to our prior offer. I know that would never happen but I wish it would. Just once I'd like to see a player screw himself over by playing hardball, it's been awhile, the last time I recall it happening with the Cards was Jamir Miller.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

While cool, Warners offer to let go of 1 mill per year if Boldin is re-signed is an empty one. First, you can’t put an incentive into a contract that makes it so his contract deducts 1 mill per year if Boldin is extended, you can only make performance or practice base incentives or decentives. Second, Warner knows darn well that he would sign a contract right away, meaning Cards have only hours to negotiate with Boldin, because Warner isn’t going to wait to sign his deal waiting maybe weeks for a Boldin deal to get done.

Again nice gesture but it isn’t a practical or feasible one in this case, unless he just takes the Cards word on it in a hand shake deal.

Nice "PR" gesture, and that is all it can be in the final instance. Kurt and his agent are simply rallying public support in whatever fashion they can, and judging from half or more of the posts, it's working admirably.

FROM URBAN:

My cohort Kent Somers is reporting a new offer from Kurt Warner's side to the Cards, one that splits up $12 million in guaranteed money over the two years and would be worth $23 million total. Warner's agent said the previous reports of $23 million included $3 million of incentives; I am assuming then this $23 million is all salary and bonus. One thing also made very clear -- Warner does not want to leave Arizona. We all knew this. Now we see how it plays out from here.

UPDATE: Somers has updated his story with an interesting factoid -- the first-year salary of $7 million is apparently not included in the first revelation of the contract offer. Virtually every agent (who assumes a client isn't going to be cut in the first year of a contract) counts the first-year salary as guaranteed money. That would give Warner $13 million in all "guarantees" the first year and another $6 million in the second year (along with apparently a $4 million salary). Again, the gap has closed, but it doesn't sound like the automatic slam dunk it was. To give $19 million in guarantees over two years is a hefty sum.