Way-too-early Monti Ossenfort Performance Review

[Stout]

It could be because there is a monetary restriction put on the team/GM that would never become public.

Yes, and it absolutely stinks. Half the board seems to be okay with it, though.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Injuries are essentially random according to anyone who knows what they are talking about. Try again.

To be clear - you're saying that players that have had injury issues in the past are just as likely as players that haven't had issues to get injuries? It's random that the Cards had injury issues, especially to injury prone players? That a guy like Rondale Moore has been simply unlucky?

Is that the opinion of someone who knows what he's talking about?

Wilson was better than Murphy.

Says who? Murphy was one of the better corners to start the year before he got injured. Wilson has improved, but his first 1.5 years were shambolic.

Murphy was better overall in 2022 than Wilson.

Cam Thomas wasn't too far off Allen.

SSS. Let's see him do it full time.

Where would you rank either at their position across the NFL?

Both Murphy and Allen are above average starters and young!

And if you are trying to tank, there isn't any reason to sign them now.

Draft.

(deep breath) YOU CANNOT BUILD AN ENTIRE TEAM THROUGH THE DRAFT, OR EXCLUSIVELY THROUGH OUTSIDE FA, OR TRADE. Unless we have Ron Wolf in his prime, relying on the draft alone is too many eggs in one basket.

Is it easier to get a top five picks WITH Allen and Murphy or without them?

Building a terrible team to ensure a top five pick is risky biz.

The Cardinals will be bad this year, decent next year, and playoff competitive in 2025.

What if they didn't have to blow this entire year to progress?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Hopefully the blue chippers in next years draft are in our pick range - we had a top 3 pick this year and traded down for a good prospect, but not a player that most would consider blue chip.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yes, and it absolutely stinks. Half the board seems to be okay with it, though.

I'm not okay with it, but I'm also not giving it a lot of my brain space when it is something we can't prove.

 

[CardNots]

To be clear - you're saying that players that have had injury issues in the past are just as likely as players that haven't had issues to get injuries? It's random that the Cards had injury issues, especially to injury prone players? That a guy like Rondale Moore has been simply unlucky?

Is that the opinion of someone who knows what he's talking about?

Says who? Murphy was one of the better corners to start the year before he got injured. Wilson has improved, but his first 1.5 years were shambolic.

Murphy was better overall in 2022 than Wilson.

SSS. Let's see him do it full time.

Both Murphy and Allen are above average starters and young!



(deep breath) YOU CANNOT BUILD AN ENTIRE TEAM THROUGH THE DRAFT, OR EXCLUSIVELY THROUGH OUTSIDE FA, OR TRADE. Unless we have Ron Wolf in his prime, relying on the draft alone is too many eggs in one basket.

Building a terrible team to ensure a top five pick is risky biz.

What if they didn't have to blow this entire year to progress?

What is your definition of progress this upcoming season?

win/loss?

Execution?

Game plan?

In game adjustments?

Less penalties?

Turnovers?

Player development?

 

[kerouac9]

What is your definition of progress this upcoming season?

win/loss?

Execution?

Game plan?

In game adjustments?

Less penalties?

Turnovers?

Player development?

The second line is the result of everything below it. You can't have A+ work in the all or most of the bottom without it resulting in improvement in the top.

On the other hand, if you suck at a talent level, nothing else matters. Bad players can't execute. Bad players turn the ball over. Bad players don't develop.

 

[Krangodnzr]

To be clear - you're saying that players that have had injury issues in the past are just as likely as players that haven't had issues to get injuries? It's random that the Cards had injury issues, especially to injury prone players? That a guy like Rondale Moore has been simply unlucky?

Is that the opinion of someone who knows what he's talking about?

Says who? Murphy was one of the better corners to start the year before he got injured. Wilson has improved, but his first 1.5 years were shambolic.

Murphy was better overall in 2022 than Wilson.

By no actual metric is this true.

Murphy gave up an over 100 QB Rating last year.

SSS. Let's see him do it full time.

Both Murphy and Allen are above average starters and young!



(deep breath) YOU CANNOT BUILD AN ENTIRE TEAM THROUGH THE DRAFT, OR EXCLUSIVELY THROUGH OUTSIDE FA, OR TRADE. Unless we have Ron Wolf in his prime, relying on the draft alone is too many eggs in one basket.

And I said this where? Next offseason they will be in position to do both.

Building a terrible team to ensure a top five pick is risky biz.

The team will get a top five picks primarily because Colt McCoy is the opening starter.

What if they didn't have to blow this entire year to progress?

Sweet they could be on pace for the 11th pick!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Hopefully the blue chippers in next years draft are in our pick range - we had a top 3 pick this year and traded down for a good prospect, but not a player that most would consider blue chip.

This past draft was a historically poor draft at the top end of the talent.

Even Anderson wasn't a consensus blue chip talent.

Johnson was a low risk investment in the future. Tackles have a very low bust rate.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The team will get a top five picks primarily because Colt McCoy is the opening starter.

lol. That's it!

 

[kerouac9]

Johnson was a low risk investment in the future. Tackles have a very low bust rate.

What does that mean, exactly? The opportunity cost is certainly high at #6 overall, right?

This is exactly the story we told ourselves to make the best of the Levi Brown and Jonathan Cooper selections.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

With 100 games lost to injuries.

If you think it's hard to find Murphy and Allen level talents...

I'd gladly give them up for an additional real blue chip talent.

In any given draft there are sometimes only 5 real blue chip talents. Adding two blue chip talents is more of a guarantee than anything else.

Being mediocre isn't the way either.

Lol. Are you arguing being the dregs of the league is closer to being good than being mediocre? Cmon now.

Unless you’ve got a new point to be made, I think I’m done here. This ring-around-the-rosey about the cardinals getting worse being a plan to admire has run its course with my interest. Feel free to get the final word in if you so desire.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Lol. Are you arguing being the dregs of the league is closer to being good than being mediocre? Cmon now.

Unless you’ve got a new point to be made, I think I’m done here. This ring-around-the-rosey about the cardinals getting worse being a plan to admire has run its course with my interest. Feel free to get the final word in if you so desire.

Parity in the NFL is a real thing

 

[Chopper0080]

I'm not sticking up for the FO.

I'm just not crying that the sky is falling.

Technically speaking, the sky is falling. You are just ok with it because the Cardinals are letting it fall on purpose. Others aren't. You think it is a plan. Others think it is neglect.

 

[Chopper0080]

The sky IS falling, by all standards, and that seems to be a deliberate plan. It's debated around here whether or not it's a good plan, but make no mistake...those are pieces of the sky next to you on the ground.

I'm gonna try this again...

borg

 

[Chopper0080]

Parity in the NFL is a real thing

Which is why you shouldn't purposefully slow down your progress to being competitive. The NFL is built for quick turnarounds which is why this is all so frustrating.

 

[Stout]

Which is why you shouldn't purposefully slow down your progress to being competitive. The NFL is built for quick turnarounds which is why this is all so frustrating.

Exactly. One year? Yes, okay, we are all able to agree (mostly) that we were never going to be competitive this season. So, sure, the team gets a pass for sucking this season. Not setting us up for a quick turnaround next season? That's the dumb part of this "rebuild." That's what has many on the board frustrated.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Exactly. One year? Yes, okay, we are all able to agree (mostly) that we were never going to be competitive this season. So, sure, the team gets a pass for sucking this season. Not setting us up for a quick turnaround next season? That's the dumb part of this "rebuild." That's what has many on the board frustrated.

And some of us believe if the stars align just right they will be competitive next season. And your doom and gloom has us frustrated. But face it your probably right it’s the Cardinals

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Which is why you shouldn't purposefully slow down your progress to being competitive. The NFL is built for quick turnarounds which is why this is all so frustrating.

While I don't disagree with that fully, there is some nuance in there to be found. Quick turnarounds do happen and a lot of people like to point at the Eagles. One of the things that get lost is that the Eagles had two good years of drafting before they hired Sirianni. So that was a 3-4 year turnaround, not as quick as it seems. The Cards don't have that 2 good draft years ahead of Gannon, so any turnaround is going to be behind schedule. It was also a team that won the SB 5 years ago. So while most of the players from that 2017 team aren't there anymore, there was still a winning culture in Philly.

Also, consider the fact that the Gannon/Monti may not be all in on Kyler and that adds a new wrinkle. Outwardly they are behind him, but we know talk's cheap. Maybe drafting a new QB high next year pushes back the development even more; maybe it accelerates it.

 

[Chopper0080]

While I don't disagree with that fully, there is some nuance in there to be found. Quick turnarounds do happen and a lot of people like to point at the Eagles. One of the things that get lost is that the Eagles had two good years of drafting before they hired Sirianni. So that was a 3-4 year turnaround, not as quick as it seems. The Cards don't have that 2 good draft years ahead of Gannon, so any turnaround is going to be behind schedule. It was also a team that won the SB 5 years ago. So while most of the players from that 2017 team aren't there anymore, there was still a winning culture in Philly.

Also, consider the fact that the Gannon/Monti may not be all in on Kyler and that adds a new wrinkle. Outwardly they are behind him, but we know talk's cheap. Maybe drafting a new QB high next year pushes back the development even more; maybe it accelerates it.

Well, as the founding member of the "Kyler isn't playing for the Cardinals in 2024 if they pick #1" I don't disagree. I just hate the going this far with gutting the roster.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Well, as the founding member of the "Kyler isn't playing for the Cardinals in 2024 if they pick #1" I don't disagree. I just hate the going this far with gutting the roster.

We don't know Monti's thinking or what the plan is.

One thing that could be true is that he:

1) wanted to suck so bad you almost guarantee a high pick. If thats the case, his moves made are 100% correct.

Or

2) he trusts the scouting staff so little that he doesn't want to trust Keim scouts to make costly free agency evaluations.

 

[Chopper0080]

We don't know Monti's thinking or what the plan is.

One thing that could be true is that he:

1) wanted to suck so bad you almost guarantee a high pick. If thats the case, his moves made are 100% correct.

Or

2) he trusts the scouting staff so little that he doesn't want to trust Keim scouts to make costly free agency evaluations.

Neither of those play for me but whatever.

 

[MadCardDisease]

We don't know Monti's thinking or what the plan is.

One thing that could be true is that he:

1) wanted to suck so bad you almost guarantee a high pick. If thats the case, his moves made are 100% correct.

Or

2) he trusts the scouting staff so little that he doesn't want to trust Keim scouts to make costly free agency evaluations.

I think what we are seeing is Monti following in the Belichick model of building a team.

#1: Quick turnover of the roster from the previous regime. By year two of Belichick taking over the Patriots, only 4 starters remained from the previous regime {C Damien Woody (Selected in the 1st round the season before Belichick arrived), MLB Tedy Bruschi, CB Ty Law and DE Willie McGinest}. Belichick wasted no time letting LB Andy Katzenmoyer (the other 1st rounder selected with Woody in 1999) go after just one season with Belichick and only two seasons on the Patriots. Belichick's first year was all about installing a culture and if you weren't all in you were out!

I think we are seeing a lot of this right now with the Cardinals. I expect the 2024 Cardinals starters to have only a handful of starters left from the previous regime (Kyler, Hump, McBride, Baker, Thompson, Collins). It also appears that Monti isn't afraid of letting former 1st round LB Simmons go if he doesn't live up to expectations.

#2: Belichick built the core of his team through the draft and seemingly every year he would hit at least one home run. In Belichick's first year he had 20 rookies on the roster at training camp. It all started by selecting future HOF Tom Brady in the 6th round of his first draft. Belichick followed that up with selecting HOF Richard Seymour in 2001.

Monti is clearly rebuilding the core through the draft. Too early to tell how well he will hit on his draft picks.

#3: Moving on from overpriced players. Belichick was shrewd when it came time for players who were FAs looking for a new big contract. Once your value no longer matched your salary it was time to say goodbye.

Zach Allen, DHop, Chosen Anderson, all were let go because their value no longer fit with the salary that they earned, wanted or got on the open market. Ertz and Conner will soon join them at the end of this season.

#4: Willing to spend when a FA fits. Gilmore comes to mind as does Randy Moss and Devin McCourty. However the one year that comes to mind where Belichick made a big splash was in 2001 which was year two for him in NE. With that FA class Belichick landed the amazing haul of: LB Mike Vrabel, CB Terrell Buckley, G Mike Compton, LB Bryan Cox, LB Roman Phifer, QB Damon Huard, LB Larry Izzo, WR David Patten, FB Marc Edwards, DE Anthony Pleasant, and RB Antowain Smith.

Much like when Belichick made Devin McCourty the highest paid safety in the league I could see Monti doing something similar with Baker here shortly. Also I expect 2024 to be a big year for the Cardinals signing FAs. From there on Monti will probably target 1 or 2 FAs a year that fit what he is looking for.



Belichick only had 5 wins in his first season but was able to completely rebuild his roster in 2 seasons and win the SB that second year. He landed a future HOF in both of his first two drafts. He usually hit at least one home run in each draft there on. He wasn't afraid to move on from key players. He shrewdly evolved his teams roster year after year.

Will Monti have the same success? The odds are against it. However I do see the similarities in his style to what Belichick did early on. No we have to wait and see if all works out for him. As a Cardinals fan I'm hoping that it does.

 

[kerouac9]

People misunderstand that the trick isn't getting rid of all your players. It's replacing them with better ones. "Let's draft two Hall of Famers" every year isn't a plan.

 

[MadCardDisease]

People misunderstand that the trick isn't getting rid of all your players. It's replacing them with better ones. "Let's draft two Hall of Famers" every year isn't a plan.

Drafting two HOF only happened once for Belichick. Still I found that impressive considering how poor the Cardinals have drafted under Keim.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Well, as the founding member of the "Kyler isn't playing for the Cardinals in 2024 if they pick #1" I don't disagree. I just hate the going this far with gutting the roster.

It's not irrefutable evidence, but I doubt the Cardinals draft PJ at #6, the player Murray lobbied for (I believe) unless MO was all on K1.

Cardinals draftee Paris Johnson Jr. felt wanted by Kyler Murray

Arizona Cardinals draft pick Paris Johnson Jr. said he met quarterback Kyler Murray during his top 30 visit with the team.

arizonasports.com