Week 17-Arizona Cardinals off season thread. 05/1/23-05/7/23

[BritCard]

We just haven't been creative.

For the sake of clarity. Creative how?

 

[Stout]

For the sake of clarity. Creative how?

I'm not going to re-hash what you've read and categorically rejected as "illogical" a thousand times before. You don't deserve my time now.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Another in the "it would have been impossible" type of responses, eh? You're quite wrong, of course. We just haven't been creative.

The Cardinals have been plenty creative....but creative for cap purposes generally means pushing money out to future years which is a REALLY DUMB idea during a rebuild.

Before last season, the Eagles pushed out a TON of money to future years. Some of these contracts will affect the cap all the way (iirc) to the 2027 season. If you think the Cardinals should the same, you're crazy brother.

 

[BritCard]

I'm not going to re-hash what you've read and categorically rejected as "illogical" a thousand times before. You don't deserve my time now.

The only thing you have suggested they could do is offer more upfront cash.

That isn't a solution. Firstly because I don't think players would choose an inferior team and a sure fire losing season over a different distribution of cash. It's cash they are going to get anyway, it's millions either way, I don't think any player is going to choose the Cards over practically any other teams because they get $2m more upfront cash they get down the road anyway.

Second, any agent worth their salt is using all contract offers to get the best deal from the players prefered destinations. If the Cards offer more up front money, or more guarantees, the agent will just use that to get the Niners, Cowboys, Saints or whoever to improve their deal.

The only way the Cards could win such a fight is to massively overpay beyond what any other team has on the table.

If there is some other creative way you mentioned that I've missed I apologise.

 

[Stout]

The Cardinals have been plenty creative....but creative for cap purposes generally means pushing money out to future years which is a REALLY DUMB idea during a rebuild.

Before last season, the Eagles pushed out a TON of money to future years. Some of these contracts will affect the cap all the way (iirc) to the 2027 season. If you think the Cardinals should the same, you're crazy brother.

Right, because we can't be crazy and frontload with the cap. Nah, it ain't crazy having 100 mill in cap space for one FA period next year, right?

For the record, you don't think we could have signed one or two long-term FAs this year without seriously harming our rebuild moving forward, right? This is your opinion?

 

[Stout]

The only thing you have suggested they could do is offer more upfront cash.

That isn't a solution. Firstly because I don't think players would choose an inferior team and a sure fire losing season over a different distribution of cash. It's cash they are going to get anyway, it's millions either way, I don't think any player is going to choose the Cards over practically any other teams because they get $2m more upfront cash they get down the road anyway.

Second, any agent worth their salt is using all contract offers to get the best deal from the players prefered destinations. If the Cards offer more up front money, or more guarantees, the agent will just use that to get the Niners, Cowboys, Saints or whoever to improve their deal.

The only way the Cards could win such a fight is to massively overpay beyond what any other team has on the table.

If there is some other creative way you mentioned that I've missed I apologise.

Sure, man. Whatever you say.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Right, because we can't be crazy and frontload with the cap. Nah, it ain't crazy having 100 mill in cap space for one FA period next year, right?

This is how you get Jordan Philips'

For the record, you don't think we could have signed one or two long-term FAs this year without seriously harming our rebuild moving forward, right? This is your opinion?

Honestly I don't have all of the information for the why. This could be a situation where Monti is looking at this thing and the whole roster needs a full reevaluation this year.

Next year the Cardinals are projected to have $40 million in cap space. It's a nice amount, but not a ton of money. But 2025 will be a full on crazy amount, so in 2024, you can push a lot of money to that year.

 

[slanidrac16]

Ben Jones turns 34 in July, he's not here for the next 4 years.

There's something we don't know with Ben Jones.

His Titan's contract was good value. His cap hit this year was only $8.2m and the Titans took a $4.5m dead cap hit to do it. Why cut a top 10 C earning none top 10 money to save only $3.7m? The backup Center that's taking over is not good either, it's a huge downgrade for $3.7m.

He was cut with a failed physical designation and missed 5 games last year with concussions, eventually going on IR in mid December with it.

I'm guessing teams think he has a year max left in him and with the recent concussion history they don't think it's worth the risk.

Poop. I thought he was younger for some reason.

 

[BritCard]

Poop. I thought he was younger for some reason.

Maybe getting him crossed with Ryan Kelly who was supposed to be available for trade? I think he's 29/30.

 

[kerouac9]

This is how you get Jordan Philips'

Honestly I don't have all of the information for the why. This could be a situation where Monti is looking at this thing and the whole roster needs a full reevaluation this year.

Next year the Cardinals are projected to have $40 million in cap space. It's a nice amount, but not a ton of money. But 2025 will be a full on crazy amount, so in 2024, you can push a lot of money to that year.

Really begs the question why we're pinching pennies this season only to position ourselves to have the 19th-most effective cap space in the NFL in 2024. That number will shift significantly if we do something with Nuk and/or Budda ($43 million in cap hold in 2024) this year. Zach Ertz and James Conner also have a 2024 cap hold of nearly $21 million.

We're so stupid.

 

[kerouac9]

The ghost of Jordan Phillips has the sixth-highest cap number among the 2023 Arizona Cardinals.

 

[BritCard]

Nah, it ain't crazy having 100 mill in cap space for one FA period next year, right?

This is the salary cap table entering the 2017 season when the salary cap was $167m.

$100m with the cap pushing $250m is not an unreasonable amount.

$100m in 2024 is about $68m in 2017 and there were like 4 teams with that kind of money to spend.

The Brown's carried over $59m of this into 2018. We don't have to spend it all. It obviously depends on how good the FA market is and if they fit our needs.

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[RON_IN_OC]

Really begs the question why we're pinching pennies this season only to position ourselves to have the 19th-most effective cap space in the NFL in 2024. That number will shift significantly if we do something with Nuk and/or Budda ($43 million in cap hold in 2024) this year. Zach Ertz and James Conner also have a 2024 cap hold of nearly $21 million.

We're so stupid.

Probably because they have to creatively tank. You think they want to risk tanking allegations, like Miami, and lose draft picks they just worked hard to accumulate? If you jettison every single piece of talent at one time, you will be investigated for tanking. Their best bet, IMO, if they want to shed these guys before 2024, is to do it during the season, when the record is bad and the excuse can be made that they aren't going to win anything...more like how a MLB or NBA team would conduct business.

 

[Chopper0080]

Really begs the question why we're pinching pennies this season only to position ourselves to have the 19th-most effective cap space in the NFL in 2024. That number will shift significantly if we do something with Nuk and/or Budda ($43 million in cap hold in 2024) this year. Zach Ertz and James Conner also have a 2024 cap hold of nearly $21 million.

We're so stupid.

Yeah...I project it more of 88.84 mil next year.

43 mil base.
Add 14.9 mil moving on from Hopkins
Add 14.2 mil moving on from Budda
Add 7.55 mil moving on from Ertz
Add 5.490 mil moving on from Conner
Add 2.8 mil moving on from Gardeck
Add 3.5 mil moving on from Prater

None of that includes
adding 9 mil moving on from The Captain
adding 2.235 mil moving on from Froholdt

 

[Dayman]

So no free agents would sign here this year because they know the team will be very bad. But next year, after this very bad season happens as predicted, free agents will want to come here at a reasonable price for some reason? Am I getting this right? Are we just going to put a sign on the door that says "not tanking anymore" and then they will come running?

Or is the main reason for sitting out FA because Monti appears to be the only GM I can remember who needs to observe the team for a full season before he makes any serious roster moves aside from the draft? And have all of his own hirings in place, which again, seems very rare.

Both of these seem like pretty weak excuses for sitting out (or getting shut out of) free agency for the second consecutive year.

 

[Stout]

This is how you get Jordan Philips'

Honestly I don't have all of the information for the why. This could be a situation where Monti is looking at this thing and the whole roster needs a full reevaluation this year.

Next year the Cardinals are projected to have $40 million in cap space. It's a nice amount, but not a ton of money. But 2025 will be a full on crazy amount, so in 2024, you can push a lot of money to that year.

in no way have I advocated pushing cap hits into many years to come. Try again. If we're supposed to have gobs of it next year, it wouldn't have hurt us at all--and easily could have benefited us--in signing some talent to start the roster rebuild. Not kicking the can down the road years to come. Kinda the opposite of Jordan Philips, so yeah. No. LOL.

 

[CardNots]

I've had this conversation before and Stout says we don't have to overpay them, we just give them a better upfront money / cash structure.

As if the agent wouldn't use that to go back to the players prefered destinations to get them to match it.

I guess Monti should say "This offer expires when I put down the phone" in a gravelly voice or something.

I do know this, I wouldn’t let Stout put together my budget.

 

[kerouac9]

Probably because they have to creatively tank. You think they want to risk tanking allegations, like Miami, and lose draft picks they just worked hard to accumulate? If you jettison every single piece of talent at one time, you will be investigated for tanking. Their best bet, IMO, if they want to shed these guys before 2024, is to do it during the season, when the record is bad and the excuse can be made that they aren't going to win anything...more like how a MLB or NBA team would conduct business.

This is fake news. Miami lost draft picks for tampering with Tom Brady and Sean Payton, not for tanking. Tell me another story about why it's good for the Cards to be terrible this year while not positioning themselves to be good in 2024.

Yeah...I project it more of 88.84 mil next year.

43 mil base.
Add 14.9 mil moving on from Hopkins
Add 14.2 mil moving on from Budda
Add 7.55 mil moving on from Ertz
Add 5.490 mil moving on from Conner
Add 2.8 mil moving on from Gardeck
Add 3.5 mil moving on from Prater

None of that includes
adding 9 mil moving on from The Captain
adding 2.235 mil moving on from Froholdt

Yeah, but you're giving some of that money to Hollywood or some other WR who's going to start opposite MHJ (ostensibly).

Then you're also looking for a starting TE and another starting two starting OL; that combined probably offsets the money you save getting rid of five of the top 15 players from the 2022 team.

It makes no sense why we couldn't use some of today's money to invest in that future. Contra @BritCard I don't think OL really care about competing for a playoff spot and they have to stats to get tracked.

And 2025 cap space is obviously a mirage; we have 20 players under contract in 2025. There'll be more assuming the entire draft class makes the roster. The only current veterans under contract heading into 2025 are Kyler, Jalen Thompson, and the Captain, whom you want to release the year before.

Our sixth-highest paid player as of today is dead cap. If we trade Nuk after June 1 Dead Cap will have the highest salary on the team.

But don't worry, Dead Cap is already scheduled to be our seventh-highest paid player in 2024 at $8.3 million for the ghosts of Rodney Hudson and J.J. Watt.

 

[Stout]

I do know this, I wouldn’t let Stout put together my budget.

Agreed! I do also know that Monti's way isn't the only sensible way. Anyone saying otherwise is either "lying or selling something," to quote a great movie

 

[Harry]

This is fake news. Miami lost draft picks for tampering with Tom Brady and Sean Payton, not for tanking. Tell me another story about why it's good for the Cards to be terrible this year while not positioning themselves to be good in 2024.



Yeah, but you're giving some of that money to Hollywood or some other WR who's going to start opposite MHJ (ostensibly).

Then you're also looking for a starting TE and another starting two starting OL; that combined probably offsets the money you save getting rid of five of the top 15 players from the 2022 team.

It makes no sense why we couldn't use some of today's money to invest in that future. Contra @BritCard I don't think OL really care about competing for a playoff spot and they have to stats to get tracked.

And 2025 cap space is obviously a mirage; we have 20 players under contract in 2025. There'll be more assuming the entire draft class makes the roster. The only current veterans under contract heading into 2025 are Kyler, Jalen Thompson, and the Captain, whom you want to release the year before.

Our sixth-highest paid player as of today is dead cap. If we trade Nuk after June 1 Dead Cap will have the highest salary on the team.

But don't worry, Dead Cap is already scheduled to be our seventh-highest paid player in 2024 at $8.3 million for the ghosts of Rodney Hudson and J.J. Watt.

Regardless of what they announced I think the penalty was stiffer because the league was already being pressured to consider a tanking penalty. Miami was dumb enough to virtually announce they were tanking.

 

[kerouac9]

Regardless of what they announced I think the penalty was stiffer because the league was already being pressured to consider a tanking penalty. Miami was dumb enough to virtually announce they were tanking.

I think they had the goods on him for paying to lose. That's the "integrity of the game" piece.

The NFL couldn't have cared less about the Browns intentionally being bad from 2015 to 2017.

 

[WisconsinCard]

Lol. They didn’t fill a single hole. And there were square pegs for square holes and round pegs for round holes we just signed whatever pegs for $1M one year holes of whatever shape.

Agreed, because IMO they don't know if they have square holes or round holes yet. And yes, they signed $1M pegs all day long until they figure it out. I'm no saying this is the right way to go, I'm just saying I'm willing to be patient and find out. Light at the end of the tunnel may be a train as said by @schutd, but I'm going to stand and find out.

 

[CardNots]

Agreed! I do also know that Monti's way isn't the only sensible way. Anyone saying otherwise is either "lying or selling something," to quote a great movie

I agree with ya more times than not.

They have a plan but so did prior management.

It’s certainly not too early for guessing and criticizing the moves or lack of. Way too early to call them out until games are played.

My thing is week to week game plans, team execution and game management. Doing those well will expose upgrades needed.

so far I love being frugal versus paying too much for long contracts

 

[Stout]

I agree with ya more times than not.

They have a plan but so did prior management.

It’s certainly not too early for guessing and criticizing the moves or lack of. Way too early to call them out until games are played.

My thing is week to week game plans, team execution and game management. Doing those well will expose upgrades needed.

so far I love being frugal versus paying too much for long contracts

Hopefully if Gannon and his staff is good at those week to week game plans and game management, they will do a good job of exposing where upgrades are needed. I much rather would have had a few of those upgrades in place already so we don't have half a roster to build next year.

I get where you're coming from with frugality versus Keim's profligacy, but it wasn't an either/or proposition. FA wasn't feast or famine I'd have at least liked a nice, filling snack.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You're wrong, full stop. No sense explaining how or why.

I’ve just stopped replying to those posts. They’re so absurd it is no longer a reasonable conversation.