Welcome Cam Johnson

[Dr. Jones]

At least on the Suns forum we aren't arguing over the merits or the long term future of a 4'7 QB.

Yeah, but he runs a 4.3 at 4'7"!

 

[Krangodnzr]

An awful defender on the perimeter can be mitigated by strong post defenders. Low post weakness makes people like Thomas Bryant look like superstars.

I'll bag my issues with Ayton for now. My general distaste for Sarver and for the franchise lately has soured my opinion on everything and I think it gets in the way of my thought process. I had similar problems with Bidwill Sr. in the 90's.

With that being said, I do believe Doncic was the best choice to make but I don't want to turn into the Solar7 of the Suns forum.

With that said, I'll try to lurk more and bit$h less.

I LOVE Doncic too! Love him. I think hes going to be a really good player for a really long time. But I think Ayton is going to be a really good player too.

Ayton was terrible last year....and still average 16-10! He is so talented that even moderate improvement is going to be significant. If he moderately improves over the next 2 seasons, he'll be averaging 22-12. And I think he can be closer to 28-12 in a few years.

Its harder to find a big man that can do that then a PG/SG/SF. Those guys grow on trees. There are about a dozen guys that are approximates of Doncic, but only 2-3 that can do what Ayton should be capable of.

 

[Yuma]

Ayton was terrible last year....and still average 16-10! He is so talented that even moderate improvement is going to be significant. If he moderately improves over the next 2 seasons, he'll be averaging 22-12. And I think he can be closer to 28-12 in a few years.

Its harder to find a big man that can do that then a PG/SG/SF.

I do expect a statistical increase this year, as our head coach has experience with developing big men, and brought in assistants with experience, and James Jones brought in a center to challenge him in practices. It looks like James Jones recognized Ayton was not being developed last year.

I remember Igor saying Ayton was going to be the quarterback on offense, they made a big deal about Ayton being vocal in practices leading the team on offense and defense, then come regular season games and NOTHING. The team did not resemble what the Suns were selling before the season started.

 

[Chaplin]

I LOVE Doncic too! Love him. I think hes going to be a really good player for a really long time. But I think Ayton is going to be a really good player too.

Ayton was terrible last year....and still average 16-10! He is so talented that even moderate improvement is going to be significant. If he moderately improves over the next 2 seasons, he'll be averaging 22-12. And I think he can be closer to 28-12 in a few years.

Its harder to find a big man that can do that then a PG/SG/SF. Those guys grow on trees. There are about a dozen guys that are approximates of Doncic, but only 2-3 that can do what Ayton should be capable of.

First of all, Ayton was NOT "terrible". That is ridiculous. Was he ROY worthy? Not compared to Doncic he wasn't. But he still broke rookie records for a big man. That is far from "terrible". I just hate the false narrative that Ayton was a horrible player. He wasn't. And he's not now. Rubio, Monty and experience + Ayton = possibly significant improvement to an already good young player.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I was kidding by the way. I actually like the pick in and of itself - I just wasn't very thrilled with how it went down regarding Rosen.

 

[AzStevenCal]

First of all, Ayton was NOT "terrible". That is ridiculous. Was he ROY worthy? Not compared to Doncic he wasn't. But he still broke rookie records for a big man. That is far from "terrible". I just hate the false narrative that Ayton was a horrible player. He wasn't. And he's not now. Rubio, Monty and experience + Ayton = possibly significant improvement to an already good young player.

I think Ayton was definitely ROY worthy. I think he may well have won it had he been playing elsewhere even if he performed exactly as he did. But he put up those numbers on the worst team in the league and he wasn't even the best player so I can understand him being overlooked for the award. As it was though, I'd have given it to Trae Young.

 

[Chaplin]

I think Ayton was definitely ROY worthy. I think he may well have won it had he been playing elsewhere even if he performed exactly as he did. But he put up those numbers on the worst team in the league and he wasn't even the best player so I can understand him being overlooked for the award. As it was though, I'd have given it to Trae Young.

Trae Young performed well on a terrible team too. Why should Young get it over Ayton?

 

[Yuma]

I was kidding by the way. I actually like the pick in and of itself - I just wasn't very thrilled with how it went down regarding Rosen.

The Rosen thing was mishandled by the organization for sure. They should have made a sign of thanking and praising him for being a team player. Especially how he stayed out fo the media and lead the team practicing while knowing he was probably leaving. The season he was here for us was such a disaster, that they almost rebuilt the whole team ala the Suns. There are so many new players, coaches, etc, that this is a whole new team in reality. Something had to be done. The Cards made a 19 win Suns team actually look good! That was a historically bad Cards team last year.

 

[Krangodnzr]

First of all, Ayton was NOT "terrible". That is ridiculous. Was he ROY worthy? Not compared to Doncic he wasn't. But he still broke rookie records for a big man. That is far from "terrible". I just hate the false narrative that Ayton was a horrible player. He wasn't. And he's not now. Rubio, Monty and experience + Ayton = possibly significant improvement to an already good young player.

Terrible for what he CAN do Chap. It's meant as a compliment. I think Ayton can be so much better, that we will look back and say "Wow that dude sucked compared to the current Ayton."

 

[Krangodnzr]

The Rosen thing was mishandled by the organization for sure. They should have made a sign of thanking and praising him for being a team player. Especially how he stayed out fo the media and lead the team practicing while knowing he was probably leaving. The season he was here for us was such a disaster, that they almost rebuilt the whole team ala the Suns. There are so many new players, coaches, etc, that this is a whole new team in reality. Something had to be done. The Cards made a 19 win Suns team actually look good! That was a historically bad Cards team last year.

The Suns had a higher winning percentage.

.2307

Vs

.232

But the Cardinals didnt get screwed like the Suns did...they walked away with Kyler Murray....while the Suns got a nice role player possibly.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Trae Young performed well on a terrible team too. Why should Young get it over Ayton?

And Young was one of the top five worst defenders in the NBA.

Neither Ayton nor Doncic were great defenders by any measure, but they were significantly better than Young.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The Suns had a higher winning percentage.

.2307

Vs

.232

But the Cardinals didnt get screwed like the Suns did...they walked away with Kyler Murray....while the Suns got a nice role player possibly.

The Suns waited too long to start getting better. With the changes in the lottery this year and the limited amount of game changing talent in this draft it was simply a bad year to play the lottery odds.

Maybe we would have been the team lucking out with jumping way up in the lottery like New Orleans did if we had a better season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Trae Young performed well on a terrible team too. Why should Young get it over Ayton?

I'm re-thinking my position. This is all moot obviously but it's interesting how little attention Ayton received for this award when you consider their numbers (Ayton led all 3 in PER). And I really don't know how relevant the WS rating is but Ayton led the Suns in Win Shares (2nd in WS/48) whereas Doncic was 3rd in WS for the Mavs (7th in WS/48) and Young trailed both by finishing 3rd for his team but 11th in WS/48.

 

[Mainstreet]

Here are the player comparisons of the top ROY candidates.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...n+Bagley+III&player_id5=baglema01&idx=players

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm re-thinking my position. This is all moot obviously but it's interesting how little attention Ayton received for this award when you consider their numbers (Ayton led all 3 in PER). And I really don't know how relevant the WS rating is but Ayton led the Suns in Win Shares (2nd in WS/48) whereas Doncic was 3rd in WS for the Mavs (7th in WS/48) and Young trailed both by finishing 3rd for his team but 11th in WS/48.

Ayton didn't have any flashy games that were the talk of Sportcenter for the night or week. Ayton had 1 game over 30 points, 33, and that was his season high. Luka had 8 games over 30 and Trae had 9 games with over 30, with Trae scoring 49 in March against Chicago. Young also had 30 double doubles with 1 triple double, that came a week after he scored 49. Luka had 8 triple doubles of his own with 24 double doubles. Ayton had 39 double doubles with 0 triple doubles. So Young getting hot in March, when award talk was gearing up post All-Star break, helped him surpass Ayton and Luka had it won before the calendar changed to 2019.

Here is Luka Doncic's game log
Here is Trae Young's game log
And Ayton's game log

Just in case anyone wants to see for themselves. It's all from BBReference and they list double doubles, triple doubles, as well as how many times a player scored between 30-39, 40-49, etc towards the top of the page. Game Highs for all stats are available by clicking the columns, it should sort them for you high to low.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm re-thinking my position. This is all moot obviously but it's interesting how little attention Ayton received for this award when you consider their numbers (Ayton led all 3 in PER). And I really don't know how relevant the WS rating is but Ayton led the Suns in Win Shares (2nd in WS/48) whereas Doncic was 3rd in WS for the Mavs (7th in WS/48) and Young trailed both by finishing 3rd for his team but 11th in WS/48.

There is one simple reason. 19 wins. This year was one big Suns bashing festival by the media. You cannot bash an organization constantly out of one side of your mouth and then admit that they picked the rookie of the year with the other.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Here are the player comparisons of the top ROY candidates.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Luka+Dončić&player_id1_select=Luka+Dončić&player_id1=doncilu01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Trae+Young&player_id2_select=Trae+Young&player_id2=youngtr01&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Deandre+Ayton&player_id3_select=Deandre+Ayton&player_id3=aytonde01&idx=players&player_id4_hint=Jaren+Jackson+Jr.&player_id4_select=Jaren+Jackson+Jr.&player_id4=jacksja02&idx=players&player_id5_hint=Marvin+Bagley+III&player_id5_select=Marvin+Bagley+III&player_id5=baglema01&idx=players

Wow. That is pretty shocking. The per/100 numbers are especially interesting. Ayton had an off/def rtg differential of +4. By far the best in the group. I had assumed that the case for Doncic for ROY was a slam dunk. It was closer than I imagined, even though Doncic certainly deserved the award.

There is certainly no shame whatsoever in choosing Ayton over Doncic with the #1 pick.

 

[Chaplin]

There is one simple reason. 19 wins. This year was one big Suns bashing festival by the media. You cannot bash an organization constantly out of one side of your mouth and then admit that they picked the rookie of the year with the other.

That is not a good argument in the discussion of Trae Young vs DeAndre Ayton.

 

[Dr. Jones]

It has to be hard for Ayton to get noticed. Flashy players and flashy plays will always win out.

Luka and Trae both had very flashy nights followed by ineffective nights. But all in all, they make top 10 plays lists.

If you remember.....Amare was dunking over Garnett & Olowokandi. That is how you win the ROY award.

With that being said, Ayton was a consistent force on offense all year. If he really wants it..... And the team makes him the centerpiece, he could get to 32, 15, & 5 in my opinion. And maybe even be a better version of KAT on offense.

 

[elindholm]

And maybe even be a better version of KAT on offense.

That's setting the bar pretty low. Towns is far from a dominant offensive force. If Ayton isn't clearly better than Towns within a few years, I will be disappointed.

 

[Ronin]

Especially when you have KAT admitting to playing to 40% of his potential. That is pretty disappointing.

 

[Dr. Jones]

That's setting the bar pretty low. Towns is far from a dominant offensive force. If Ayton isn't clearly better than Towns within a few years, I will be disappointed.

KAT is young also. And has top 10 in the league talent. Heck, he's above Booker on most top players under 25 lists.

And I think he has missed only 5 games in his 4 year career.

And shoots around 37% from three. Just like I hope Ayton can figure out.

I'm surprised some think Ayton and towns aren't very similar. Offensively gifted with a penchant for not rotating quick enough on defense.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It has to be hard for Ayton to get noticed. Flashy players and flashy plays will always win out.

Luka and Trae both had very flashy nights followed by ineffective nights. But all in all, they make top 10 plays lists.

If you remember.....Amare was dunking over Garnett & Olowokandi. That is how you win the ROY award.

With that being said, Ayton was a consistent force on offense all year. If he really wants it..... And the team makes him the centerpiece, he could get to 32, 15, & 5 in my opinion. And maybe even be a better version of KAT on offense.

Who are you? And what did you do with Dr. Jones? I would be quite happy with 22 and 12. And 5 what? -- assists? Naw. I don't think so.

 

[elindholm]

I'm surprised some think Ayton and towns aren't very similar.

It's based on having watched them play.

Towns rarely shoots from 10-23 feet (14% of all attempts). Last season, fully 27% of his attempts were threes. Because the three-point rate is so high, less than 60% of his attempts were inside 10 feet, and his overall accuracy from that range was only 61%. He's the proverbial "stretch five" who attacks the paint only when it's convenient and has large areas of the floor from which he's not a threat.

Except for lacking a three-point shot, Ayton's offensive game is much better balanced. 30% of his attempts were from 10-23 feet, more than double Towns's ratio. His accuracy dropped off outside of 16 feet, but at least he has the built-in mindset of being a threat from there. Inside of 10 feet, his accuracy was 68%, much higher than Towns's. He needs to get to the line a lot more, but once he does, he'll already be a stronger inside presence than Towns is capable of being.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Um. We should move this discussion to an Ayton thread. I am enjoying it though.