Welcome Cam Johnson

[Yuma]

Booker and Doncic would be a deadly duo on offense. Defensively, they would be awful, but they could coexist easily.

That's kind of where we were with Dlo and Booker.

 

[Mainstreet]

Doncic and Booker would have been a fun combination providing the Suns could have drafted Ayton as well. The Suns would have been a better version of Portland.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't think Atlanta does that trade without getting Trae Young somehow. They didn't agree to that swap with Dallas because they wanted the extra pick, they did it because they liked Young more than Doncic.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think Atlanta does that trade without getting Trae Young somehow. They didn't agree to that swap with Dallas because they wanted the extra pick, they did it because they liked Young more than Doncic.

I agree they liked Young (or maybe Young plus a pick) more than Luka but I thought they were actively shopping the Doncic pick? If so, that would suggest they were willing to move off of Doncic rather than being solely in pursuit of Trae Young. Don't forget, even though he had built up quite a fan base midway through the season, by the time the draft came around almost everyone had jumped off the Young bandwagon.

 

[JCSunsfan]

We would have kept Ayton with our number one pick last year. It would have been three FUTURE first round picks, and probably three future second rounders. Probably would have to give up a haul to get that second pick. To me it would have been worth it to have that Booker, Ayton, Doncic big three.

I don’t think that would have been enough.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

We would have kept Ayton with our number one pick last year. It would have been three FUTURE first round picks, and probably three future second rounders. Probably would have to give up a haul to get that second pick. To me it would have been worth it to have that Booker, Ayton, Doncic big three.

I don’t think they would’ve done that deal because the three future firsts would have been such unknowns while last years draft was a great draft. They knew in making the trade they were getting trae young, who was pretty highly touted and more immediate. No way they were giving up trae and another first for just one additional first rounder that would’ve been 5 years away.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree they liked Young (or maybe Young plus a pick) more than Luka but I thought they were actively shopping the Doncic pick? If so, that would suggest they were willing to move off of Doncic rather than being solely in pursuit of Trae Young. Don't forget, even though he had built up quite a fan base midway through the season, by the time the draft came around almost everyone had jumped off the Young bandwagon.

Yeah they were maximizing the value of doncic being available at that pick. (Dig at James jones not maximizing value purely unintentional . . . or not).

 

[slinslin]

I, again, vehemently disagree.

The dude has serious offensive chops. I will give him that. Can he integrate a 38% or higher 3pt game and learn to become something more than one of the most embarrassing defenders at the Center position in the entire league? I'm not so sure.

try to back up your statement, I will wait

There are no stats to back up your claim that Ayton was more than at worse a below average defender.
In fact towards the end of the season even his often quoted "rim protection stats" were starting to line up with some of the frequently mentioned best defenders.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-better-way-to-evaluate-nba-defense/

Also Ayton does not need to shoot 38% from 3. He is already an elite efficient scorer regardless.

 

[slinslin]

i think the fact that he put up statistically one of the best rookie seasons ever and helped the Mavs win 14 games more than they did the prior season is why he was so popular.

LOL

Luka had a negative +/-. The Mavs literally played worse when Luka played.

The Mavs also had a winning record in games that Luka Doncic missed.

The Mavs also did not have their draft pick and were not tanking as hard as they did in 2018.

Giving Doncic credit for improving the Mavs is a ridiculous argument.

 

[Yuma]

I am not a fan of the +/-. When you watch a game, and Dragan Bender is the only player on the Suns with a positive +/- in a game, and Booker, Ayton and others are carrying the load and have negative +/-, it doesn't make sense.

 

[JCSunsfan]

try to back up your statement, I will wait

There are no stats to back up your claim that Ayton was more than at worse a below average defender.
In fact towards the end of the season even his often quoted "rim protection stats" were starting to line up with some of the frequently mentioned best defenders.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-better-way-to-evaluate-nba-defense/

Also Ayton does not need to shoot 38% from 3. He is already an elite efficient scorer regardless.

Interesting article. Has Trevor Ariza as the second worst defender in the league last year. Ayton was our best defender last year. Outside Ariza, TJ Warren was the worst. I am not sure I am buying in but judging defensive effectiveness is difficult so it is interesting.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I am not a fan of the +/-. When you watch a game, and Dragan Bender is the only player on the Suns with a positive +/- in a game, and Booker, Ayton and others are carrying the load and have negative +/-, it doesn't make sense.

For a single game, it can be very misleading. But I think it's generally pretty telling over the course of a season. And when it isn't accurate over the long haul, the reason(s) are usually apparent.

 

[Dr. Jones]

try to back up your statement, I will wait

There are no stats to back up your claim that Ayton was more than at worse a below average defender.
In fact towards the end of the season even his often quoted "rim protection stats" were starting to line up with some of the frequently mentioned best defenders.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-better-way-to-evaluate-nba-defense/

Also Ayton does not need to shoot 38% from 3. He is already an elite efficient scorer regardless.

Are you really trying to assert that Ayton is better than a bottom third Center on defense? DeAndre Ayton of the Phoenix Suns?

You truly have to be kidding. As I have mentioned many times previously. He can hold his own one-on-one. His athleticism, strength, and size make this a very simple task for him. He often fouls or gets off balance but he is passable in that way.

What he is not..... Like bottom 2 or 3 in the league bad at is help side or weak side defending. The "Team Defense" concept is foreign to him in almost every intangible way. He is missing some instinctual piece. It's actually comedic how bad he is in a team defense scenario, and when you are the anchor..... the entire ship sinks immediately.

Like so horrible it's hard to imagine he will ever be somewhat good at it bad.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Are you really trying to assert that Ayton is better than a bottom third Center on defense? DeAndre Ayton of the Phoenix Suns?

You truly have to be kidding. As I have mentioned many times previously. He can hold his own one-on-one. His athleticism, strength, and size make this a very simple task for him. He often fouls or gets off balance but he is passable in that way.

What he is not..... Like bottom 2 or 3 in the league bad at is help side or weak side defending. The "Team Defense" concept is foreign to him in almost every intangible way. He is missing some instinctual piece. It's actually comedic how bad he is in a team defense scenario, and when you are the anchor..... the entire ship sinks immediately.

Like so horrible it's hard to imagine he will ever be somewhat good at it bad.

Mocking someone’s opinion is not an argument.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Mocking someone’s opinion is not an argument.

I hope you read past the first 3 sentences. After the surprise that it was even a topic that could be debated passed...... the response was given.

 

[SirStefan32]

I hope you read past the first 3 sentences. After the surprise that it was even a topic that could be debated passed...... the response was given.

I think when you start your argument by mocking someone else, you've already lost the argument.
Another problem is that you overstate the negative and refuse to properly acknowledge the positive. When I see anything you post, I am already thinking, "Oh here is a doom and gloom post." Not sure if I am the only one.

The truth is that Ayton plays excellent one on one defense. Good defense in the low post, and outstanding defense on the perimeter. Off of top of my head, I cannot think of another Center who is that good defending on the perimeter.

He does struggle with defensive rotations, which is perfectly normal for someone his age. Team defense is definitely his weakness right now. As for weak-side help...there are two ways to look at it. Either he isn't a shot-blocker, or he is smart enough to not get into foul trouble. I suppose the truth is somewhere in the middle. Overall, he is not a terrible defender. He is a good on-the-ball defender, though he struggles with rotations and team defense. He is also a young kid who should get better.

 

[cwamjn]

Off of top of my head, I cannot think of another Center who is that good defending on the perimeter.

.

AD. Good realistic post

 

[Phrazbit]

I hope you read past the first 3 sentences. After the surprise that it was even a topic that could be debated passed...... the response was given.

He really wasn't anywhere near as bad as you make him out to be and by many metric measures he was solid and improving as the year went on.

The entire team was terrible on rotations, that is more on coaching. Kelly Oubre, a player you praise up and down, was a disaster on rotations and lost track of his man for back door cuts on a regular basis.

IMO, your love of Doncic is creating a ridiculous caricature of Ayton in your mind.

 

[Dr. Jones]

He really wasn't anywhere near as bad as you make him out to be and by many metric measures he was solid and improving as the year went on.

The entire team was terrible on rotations, that is more on coaching. Kelly Oubre, a player you praise up and down, was a disaster on rotations and lost track of his man for back door cuts on a regular basis.

IMO, your love of Doncic is creating a ridiculous caricature of Ayton in your mind.

I continue to hope I'm wrong. After all, this team will grow together and I think it will be fun to watch.

 

[slinslin]

I hope you read past the first 3 sentences. After the surprise that it was even a topic that could be debated passed...... the response was given.

lol

you responded with zero substance

Try to back up your claims for once.

 

[Phrazbit]

I continue to hope I'm wrong. After all, this team will grow together and I think it will be fun to watch.

Honestly, the thing that makes him look bad on tape as a defender is the uncontested plays at the rim. But, IMO, there are 2 seriously mitigating factors in that. Number one, is that as a Wildcat, he was instructed not to waste fouls, if he tried to stop every play at rim he was going to foul out in half their games. And number 2... as a Sun, we gave up a LOT of penetration. If all he was doing was trying to cover for teammates missing assignments and allowing penetration then Kelly Oubre alone would probably cost Ayton about 3 fouls per game.

Ayton showed serious defensive talent in some big moments, like when he defensively took over the Bucks game in OT.

Personally, I think Ayton is going to be, at worst, a mediocre defender, and combining with his elite offensive and rebounding potential, he is one of our lesser worries.

 

[Krangodnzr]

He really wasn't anywhere near as bad as you make him out to be and by many metric measures he was solid and improving as the year went on.

The entire team was terrible on rotations, that is more on coaching. Kelly Oubre, a player you praise up and down, was a disaster on rotations and lost track of his man for back door cuts on a regular basis.

IMO, your love of Doncic is creating a ridiculous caricature of Ayton in your mind.

And his love of Doncic....Doncic is an AWFUL defender and his athletic limitations means he'll likely NEVER be good.

Ayton is a plus athlete with much more limited basketball experience. If he even cares in the slightest, he should become at least a passing NBA defender.

 

[Dr. Jones]

And his love of Doncic....Doncic is an AWFUL defender and his athletic limitations means he'll likely NEVER be good.

Ayton is a plus athlete with much more limited basketball experience. If he even cares in the slightest, he should become at least a passing NBA defender.

An awful defender on the perimeter can be mitigated by strong post defenders. Low post weakness makes people like Thomas Bryant look like superstars.

I'll bag my issues with Ayton for now. My general distaste for Sarver and for the franchise lately has soured my opinion on everything and I think it gets in the way of my thought process. I had similar problems with Bidwill Sr. in the 90's.

With that being said, I do believe Doncic was the best choice to make but I don't want to turn into the Solar7 of the Suns forum.

With that said, I'll try to lurk more and bit$h less.

 

[AzStevenCal]

An awful defender on the perimeter can be mitigated by strong post defenders. Low post weakness makes people like Thomas Bryant look like superstars.

I'll bag my issues with Ayton for now. My general distaste for Sarver and for the franchise lately has soured my opinion on everything and I think it gets in the way of my thought process. I had similar problems with Bidwill Sr. in the 90's.

With that being said, I do believe Doncic was the best choice to make but I don't want to turn into the Solar7 of the Suns forum.

With that said, I'll try to lurk more and bit$h less.

I was with you till your last sentence. I think you're wrong on Doncic and on Ayton but you aren't the only one here that sees it that way. So, no need to lurk or change your posting pattern. At least on the Suns forum we aren't arguing over the merits or the long term future of a 4'7 QB.

 

[Yuma]

I was with you till your last sentence. I think you're wrong on Doncic and on Ayton but you aren't the only one here that sees it that way. So, no need to lurk or change your posting pattern. At least on the Suns forum we aren't arguing over the merits or the long term future of a 4'7 QB.

Yeah, but he runs a 4.3 at 4'7"!