What are the 3 most important things needed to be done this offseason?

[Rats]

Whoops, should read whole thread before responding, this answer the question I just asked.

How do you determine that he needs 2 more years while scoffing at others who try to predict something about Josh?

Does it really matter....every Qb is different. I believe what I see from tape and from people with some actual knowledge of what they are talking about. While Josh has been made out to be a less than accurate passer, a bad reader of defenses, a QB with no poise in the pocket,and several other negatives that I won't list...I take that with what I have seen and apply it accordingly. What several fail or refuse to see is that there are factors that cause the negative results and usually are not applied into there thinking when judgeing our Qb situation. They would rather harp on what might have been or are just laying at the feet of a young Qb in a new system all of the problems that happen to an offense. That is why I give no credibility to that way of thinking. With what this Offense had to work with going into this season the results are that we have a Qb that is getting ahead of the learning curve in this offense, in the timing with his receivers,and applying reading defenses while on the field. All these things you have to learn on the field not on the sidelines. I have seen these things start to happen and I am sure the coaches see it and have commented on it. DG said josh has progressed. I believe him.

 

[Capital Card]

A lot of interesting comments. Looking over my notes, it's hard to settle on only three. It's amazing/frustrating how many new starters were added last year, and how many more players we still need.

I'll settle on the following:

1. RB. I like Shipp, but I don't see him as more than a #2. I don't recall the last time we had a RB make positive yards by running anything to the outside.

2. DT. As so many others have mentioned, we can't run the ball and we can't stop the run. Davis blew me away with his improvement this year, but like Marcell, he is only a #2.

3. RG/RT. I think Denny is sick about the offenses production this year and it all starts with the line. Davis, Wells, and Step are likely set for several years. I think either Shelton or Clemment will be gone, but not both. Their contracts are too big to get rid of both. Personally, I like LJ and hope he sticks with us for a few more years. The big hole on the line is RG. Someone mentioned Shelton could move there. I think that is a great idea, and if anyone could force the issue, it is Denny Green. If it were to happen, we would be desperate for a RT. If LJ stays at RT, then we need a RG just as badly.

 

[Russ Smith]

Does it really matter....every Qb is different. I believe what I see from tape and from people with some actual knowledge of what they are talking about. While Josh has been made out to be a less than accurate passer, a bad reader of defenses, a QB with no poise in the pocket,and several other negatives that I won't list...I take that with what I have seen and apply it accordingly. What several fail or refuse to see is that there are factors that cause the negative results and usually are not applied into there thinking when judgeing our Qb situation. They would rather harp on what might have been or are just laying at the feet of a young Qb in a new system all of the problems that happen to an offense. That is why I give no credibility to that way of thinking. With what this Offense had to work with going into this season the results are that we have a Qb that is getting ahead of the learning curve in this offense, in the timing with his receivers,and applying reading defenses while on the field. All these things you have to learn on the field not on the sidelines. I have seen these things start to happen and I am sure the coaches see it and have commented on it. DG said josh has progressed. I believe him.

That's all nice but it doesn't answer the question.

If I said I don't see the difference between what Josh did this year and what Blake did last year, most would rightly jump in and say but Russ, Blake is nearly 10 years older, that he was in his first year in a system designed by a guy who has never been an OC before is irrelevant he SHOULD be a lot better than a 3rd year QB.

But when we're talking 3rd year guy versus rookie, and you're writing off the rookie as 2 years away, there has to be some reason?

Clearly it's not that you believe year 3 is magic for QB's, or you wouldn't be defending Josh(3rd year). So what is it that makes you say Navarre is 2 years away and we'd be wasting time on him if we played him over Josh?

Seems the guy throwing out all the Josh hater accusations is hating on Navarre by not giving him an equal chance. I think Josh is the better QB prospect but I can actually give you a reason why I think that. You are deferring again to Green, the same guy that a few weeks ago told us Navarre was better than Josh(before Navarre got hurt).

 

[Rats]

That's all nice but it doesn't answer the question.

If I said I don't see the difference between what Josh did this year and what Blake did last year, most would rightly jump in and say but Russ, Blake is nearly 10 years older, that he was in his first year in a system designed by a guy who has never been an OC before is irrelevant he SHOULD be a lot better than a 3rd year QB.

But when we're talking 3rd year guy versus rookie, and you're writing off the rookie as 2 years away, there has to be some reason?

Clearly it's not that you believe year 3 is magic for QB's, or you wouldn't be defending Josh(3rd year). So what is it that makes you say Navarre is 2 years away and we'd be wasting time on him if we played him over Josh?

Seems the guy throwing out all the Josh hater accusations is hating on Navarre by not giving him an equal chance. I think Josh is the better QB prospect but I can actually give you a reason why I think that. You are deferring again to Green, the same guy that a few weeks ago told us Navarre was better than Josh(before Navarre got hurt).

No....Russ...they are not accusations...you guys with your posts have made them fact...I am just defending what you refuse to see in our QB. A simple answer as if it mattered is that Navarre came from a pro program at Michigan. This would lead one to believe that as the coach you like to blast has said that he is more ready for the pro game. What I said is he would not be ready next year and wouldn't be raedy until late the following season. He has not gotten past the learning curve in this system with only one start this year. Josh has and I would not want to wait another season for John to get past the crap that we have had to go thru with Josh....there satisfied...did I answer the question to your liking o guru that you like to make yourself out to be?

 

[BigRedMO]

1. QB
2. RB
3. Someone to help stop the run.

 

[Russ Smith]

No....Russ...they are not accusations...you guys with your posts have made them fact...I am just defending what you refuse to see in our QB. A simple answer as if it mattered is that Navarre came from a pro program at Michigan. This would lead one to believe that as the coach you like to blast has said that he is more ready for the pro game. What I said is he would not be ready next year and wouldn't be raedy until late the following season. He has not gotten past the learning curve in this system with only one start this year. Josh has and I would not want to wait another season for John to get past the crap that we have had to go thru with Josh....there satisfied...did I answer the question to your liking o guru that you like to make yourself out to be?

So you think coming from Michigan makes Navarre more pro ready and therefore he won't be able to start until year 3? At the same time you've been defending Josh' right to start (in that same year 3) all year? So the guy you say is more pro ready is going to take LONGER to be ready to play?

Do you see my confusion with your posts?

 

[Rats]

So you think coming from Michigan makes Navarre more pro ready and therefore he won't be able to start until year 3? At the same time you've been defending Josh' right to start (in that same year 3) all year? So the guy you say is more pro ready is going to take LONGER to be ready to play?

Do you see my confusion with your posts?

No....what I see is that you like to take words that people say and slant an angle to try and make them look bad...you have done it here for years...I think it sucks. There are many things that go into the Fact Josh took three years....You yourself have debated it to death( bad coaching staff, never in a system for a long period of time in college) but you just want to believe that the kid is dumb and will never cut it. Fine. I think you are wrong. I say that it will take Navarre more time because he hasn't had enough time in this system at the pro level and needs more coaching... his Michigan experience will only help him be ready by year 3. He isn't ready now....Josh is because he has started the entire year. Has Navarre done that in the NFL? No.

 

[Russ Smith]

No....what I see is that you like to take words that people say and slant an angle to try and make them look bad...you have done it here for years...I think it sucks. There are many things that go into the Fact Josh took three years....You yourself have debated it to death( bad coaching staff, never in a system for a long period of time in college) but you just want to believe that the kid is dumb and will never cut it. Fine. I think you are wrong. I say that it will take Navarre more time because he hasn't had enough time in this system at the pro level and needs more coaching... his Michigan experience will only help him be ready by year 3. He isn't ready now....Josh is because he has started the entire year. Has Navarre done that in the NFL? No.

I've never said Josh was dumb, he's actually quite bright, his college coach, both of them, said he'll make a fine coach.

What I've said is Josh lacks "something", that all great QB's have, confidence, swagger, belief, I don't know what you call it. When things get tough those players believe in themself, and their teammates belive in them. Josh hasn't shown that, when things didn't go well at SMU rather than show the coaches look I'm an NFL prospect use me, he transferred because he said it wasn't "fun" anymore. he transferred DOWN, to a school that openly told him he probably wouldn't start, he was even considering playing BASKETBALL at Sam Houston State.

It turned out he won the starting job and had a great season but it was just one example of how josh responds to pressure.

again Sunday in the early part of the game when the defense was stuffing Seattle, Josh was unable to take advantage of it. But as soon as the lead got to 17 and the pressure was off, there was josh at his best.

I've said all along I think the guys touting Navarre are just hoping, but I think it's incredibly hypocritical to say give Josh more time and at the same time declare Navarre a backup after one start.

 

[Rats]

I've never said Josh was dumb, he's actually quite bright, his college coach, both of them, said he'll make a fine coach.

What I've said is Josh lacks "something", that all great QB's have, confidence, swagger, belief, I don't know what you call it. When things get tough those players believe in themself, and their teammates belive in them. Josh hasn't shown that, when things didn't go well at SMU rather than show the coaches look I'm an NFL prospect use me, he transferred because he said it wasn't "fun" anymore. he transferred DOWN, to a school that openly told him he probably wouldn't start, he was even considering playing BASKETBALL at Sam Houston State.

It turned out he won the starting job and had a great season but it was just one example of how josh responds to pressure.

again Sunday in the early part of the game when the defense was stuffing Seattle, Josh was unable to take advantage of it. But as soon as the lead got to 17 and the pressure was off, there was josh at his best.

I've said all along I think the guys touting Navarre are just hoping, but I think it's incredibly hypocritical to say give Josh more time and at the same time declare Navarre a backup after one start.

I did not declare Navarre a backup for his entire career just up to this point he is going to need more coaching before he is the guy to lead the team. Most Qb go through this. You seem to think that everyone with regards to the Cardinals is just hoping.....and you like to dig out the facts to show them where there loyalty and hope is miss placed....you are as bad as NEM only more subtle.....whatever.

 

[Russ Smith]

I did not declare Navarre a backup for his entire career just up to this point he is going to need more coaching before he is the guy to lead the team. Most Qb go through this. You seem to think that everyone with regards to the Cardinals is just hoping.....and you like to dig out the facts to show them where there loyalty and hope is miss placed....you are as bad as NEM only more subtle.....whatever.

How many other teams have a rookie 7th rounder and guy who stunk until he transferred to Sam houston State as their top 2 QB's Rats?

Hell Green fooled me too, I was buying into the idea that in his system he could make Josh good enough to win, it didn't work, even Green realized that when he benched Josh, and then after King bombed he went to Navarre instead of Josh. Everyone loves to tell me ignore what Green says, pay attention to what Green does, guess what despite his now saying he never lost faith in Josh, what he DID is bench the guy, twice, before going to him out of necessity. That's the TRUE feelings of Dennis Green about josh mccown's play up until the point Navarre broke his finger. He was so impressed he was starting a rookie 7th rounder coming off 4 picks until he found out the guy couldn't play due to injury.

Remember ignore what DG says, look at what he does, that'll lead to to the truth with Green.

 

[Rats]

How many other teams have a rookie 7th rounder and guy who stunk until he transferred to Sam houston State as their top 2 QB's Rats?

Hell Green fooled me too, I was buying into the idea that in his system he could make Josh good enough to win, it didn't work, even Green realized that when he benched Josh, and then after King bombed he went to Navarre instead of Josh. Everyone loves to tell me ignore what Green says, pay attention to what Green does, guess what despite his now saying he never lost faith in Josh, what he DID is bench the guy, twice, before going to him out of necessity. That's the TRUE feelings of Dennis Green about josh mccown's play up until the point Navarre broke his finger. He was so impressed he was starting a rookie 7th rounder coming off 4 picks until he found out the guy couldn't play due to injury.

Remember ignore what DG says, look at what he does, that'll lead to to the truth with Green.

I am going to answer this like this and this is pure speculation. When King came in as a starter and he was booed almost immediatly...I think DG took it personally. We were all chanting We Want Josh, We Want Josh,...DG has said he will not be dictated to by the fans or anyone in regards to his team and that is why I think he really went to Navarre after King. Navarre was not ready. He knew it but he would not go back to Josh because of the fans chanting. He didn't apologize for the quick hook on King he just decided as he is want to do, that he was not going to be dictated to on who was going to play Qb. He looked for a spark with King and when he didn't get it he could not go back to the guy all the fans thought he was crazy for benching. I can't google a fact for you on it but it is a gut feeling I got from being there.

 

[D-Dogg]

And big ups to Denny for doing that.

And besides, not all of us were chanting "We Want Josh" at that game. I led chants of "Josh Sucks Too" and Try Na Varre."

Denny will not let the fans or the media dictate to him how to run a team. And I love that. The fans, as a whole, are uninformed and not very knowledgeable and the media is jaded, egotistical aholes with agendas of controversy unless you clean their pipes for them. Go Denny.

 

[WildBB]

I am going to answer this like this and this is pure speculation. When King came in as a starter and he was booed almost immediatly...I think DG took it personally. We were all chanting We Want Josh, We Want Josh,...DG has said he will not be dictated to by the fans or anyone in regards to his team and that is why I think he really went to Navarre after King. Navarre was not ready. He knew it but he would not go back to Josh because of the fans chanting. He didn't apologize for the quick hook on King he just decided as he is want to do, that he was not going to be dictated to on who was going to play Qb. He looked for a spark with King and when he didn't get it he could not go back to the guy all the fans thought he was crazy for benching. I can't google a fact for you on it but it is a gut feeling I got from being there.

I was there - at the Jets game. He brought in McCown for King in the 4th qtr.

 

[CaptTurbo]

That's the TRUE feelings of Dennis Green about josh mccown's play up until the point Navarre broke his finger. He was so impressed he was starting a rookie 7th rounder coming off 4 picks until he found out the guy couldn't play due to injury.

Remember ignore what DG says, look at what he does, that'll lead to to the truth with Green.

That is why Josh, er i mean rats will owe me a jersey.

And you better pay up too.

 

[Russ Smith]

I am going to answer this like this and this is pure speculation. When King came in as a starter and he was booed almost immediatly...I think DG took it personally. We were all chanting We Want Josh, We Want Josh,...DG has said he will not be dictated to by the fans or anyone in regards to his team and that is why I think he really went to Navarre after King. Navarre was not ready. He knew it but he would not go back to Josh because of the fans chanting. He didn't apologize for the quick hook on King he just decided as he is want to do, that he was not going to be dictated to on who was going to play Qb. He looked for a spark with King and when he didn't get it he could not go back to the guy all the fans thought he was crazy for benching. I can't google a fact for you on it but it is a gut feeling I got from being there.

OK, so how about getting the fans to chant "we want McKinnon" so Green will play Hayes at MLB? how about getting the fans to chant "3 WR set" so Green will go more with 2TE's. How about chanting " go deep" when we're in FG range so Green will run a draw or have Josh take a knee to avoid him taking the signature killer sack that takes us out of FG range?

You really think Green listened to the crowd and decided to go to Navarre to spite the fans?

 

[Russ Smith]

I was there - at the Jets game. He brought in McCown for King in the 4th qtr.

Don't confuse him with reality.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I was there - at the Jets game. He brought in McCown for King in the 4th qtr.

yeah well rats and his credibility are not on speaking terms atm.

 

[Rats]

I was there - at the Jets game. He brought in McCown for King in the 4th qtr.

See this is the kind of thing I am talking about....You simplified it down to the 4th Quarter of that game and mop up time....I was speaking about the next week and the decesions that were made by DG about the Qb. Russ, you and SWD just try and pile on when you know what I was speaking about...you both blow...IMO....pad those post counts fellas You and your merry band of idiots.

 

[Russ Smith]

See this is the kind of thing I am talking about....You simplified it down to the 4th Quarter of that game and mop up time....I was speaking about the next week and the decesions that were made by DG about the Qb. Russ, you and SWD just try and pile on when you know what I was speaking about...you both blow...IMO....pad those post counts fellas You and your merry band of idiots.

You bring it on yourself. King stunk against the Panthers on one days notice, next week he was booed essentially from the first play, at home, by Cards fans. They were chanting we want Josh througout the game, and lo and behold Green eventually pulled King for Josh.

And yet you expect us to believe that navarre started against Detroit the next week because Green refuses to be dictated to by the fans? Then why in the world did he pull King in the Jet game? Why didn't he leave him in just to prove to the fans who was in charge?

he went to Josh because King stunk. Josh didn't play much better, so green said what the hell let's see what Navarre can do. He couldn't admit that of course, everything has to be part of some grand plan with Green, so he claimed Navarre was the best chance to win, he'd been personally coaching him on the scout team, blah blah he's starting. He'd have started the next week if he wasn't hurt, re-enter Josh, and suddenly Green is singing the praises of Josh again. For some reason you're ignoring the praising of Navarre from Green, and ignoring everything else. THe same guy praised Blake, and then cut him 2 weeks later.

I don't know if Green likes Josh or not but his actions suggest he only went back to Josh because he HAD to, not because he feels Josh is the guy.

 

[Rats]

You bring it on yourself. King stunk against the Panthers on one days notice, next week he was booed essentially from the first play, at home, by Cards fans. They were chanting we want Josh througout the game, and lo and behold Green eventually pulled King for Josh.

And yet you expect us to believe that navarre started against Detroit the next week because Green refuses to be dictated to by the fans? Then why in the world did he pull King in the Jet game? Why didn't he leave him in just to prove to the fans who was in charge?

he went to Josh because King stunk. Josh didn't play much better, so green said what the hell let's see what Navarre can do. He couldn't admit that of course, everything has to be part of some grand plan with Green, so he claimed Navarre was the best chance to win, he'd been personally coaching him on the scout team, blah blah he's starting. He'd have started the next week if he wasn't hurt, re-enter Josh, and suddenly Green is singing the praises of Josh again. For some reason you're ignoring the praising of Navarre from Green, and ignoring everything else. THe same guy praised Blake, and then cut him 2 weeks later.

I don't know if Green likes Josh or not but his actions suggest he only went back to Josh because he HAD to, not because he feels Josh is the guy.

I said it was speculation or did you miss that...what you are also missing is that Navarre was inactive for the Jets game so he could not be put in for King or I think DG would have considered it after the Chanting started. You are correct that it is hard to predict what DG will do with the QB situation....I wouldn't have it any other way. It makes players work harder or not and leave. Josh has worked hard and when a Vet is brought in to compete he will continue to work hard to be our starter next year. Navarre could beat them both out but because of his lack of starting in the NFL he will struggle just as Josh has this season.

 

[Russ Smith]

I said it was speculation or did you miss that...what you are also missing is that Navarre was inactive for the Jets game so he could not be put in for King or I think DG would have considered it after the Chanting started. You are correct that it is hard to predict what DG will do with the QB situation....I wouldn't have it any other way. It makes players work harder or not and leave. Josh has worked hard and when a Vet is brought in to compete he will continue to work hard to be our starter next year. Navarre could beat them both out but because of his lack of starting in the NFL he will struggle just as Josh has this season.

No I'm well aware Navarre was #3 in both Carolina and at home against the Jets, that's why I said why didn't Green keep King in, and not why didn't Green put Navarre in.

Speculation I can handle, I think the flaw in your speculation is Green's actions, if he really wanted to show the fans he's in charge, he would have kept King in the game. He DID come out after one game and say "we do what we want to do", I don't recall which game that was but I think that was him saying I'm in charge not the fans.

Remember I'm the one that complained about essentially every move green made at QB in that time frame, benching josh I agreed with, on one days notice was completely silly and cost us any chance of winning in Carolina. When King bombed, the logical move was go back to Josh, going to Navarre was simply a reach, a hope for "lightning in a bottle", if Green had really believed in Navarre he wouldn't have been #3 all year.

 

[WildBB]

No I'm well aware Navarre was #3 in both Carolina and at home against the Jets, that's why I said why didn't Green keep King in, and not why didn't Green put Navarre in.

Speculation I can handle, I think the flaw in your speculation is Green's actions, if he really wanted to show the fans he's in charge, he would have kept King in the game. He DID come out after one game and say "we do what we want to do", I don't recall which game that was but I think that was him saying I'm in charge not the fans.

Remember I'm the one that complained about essentially every move green made at QB in that time frame, benching josh I agreed with, on one days notice was completely silly and cost us any chance of winning in Carolina. When King bombed, the logical move was go back to Josh, going to Navarre was simply a reach, a hope for "lightning in a bottle", if Green had really believed in Navarre he wouldn't have been #3 all year.

Everyone knows when Green started Navarre he mailed it in right then. He had no clue thet'd still be in it, at all!