What ARE the Suns Needs?

[George O'Brien]

One of the issues that comes up in evaluating draft picks and free agent propsects has to do with the Suns "needs".

One simple way of looking at the Suns needs is to do what Van Arsdale did when he said the Suns need a center and a point guard. That sounds simple enough, but all it really meant was that they are happy with their PF, SF, and SG.

At PG, a lot depends on whether Vujanic will be signed and how much he will contribute. Drafting a PG like Gordon or Harris would discourage Vujanic from coming over. At the same time, it is not self evident that any combo guard conversion really solves the Suns PG needs for a while.

The best free agent PG's are Steve Nash and Brent Barry. For the same money, I would take Barry because he can play both PG and SG while being a much better defender than Nash.

Center is another huge need, but not one that can obviously be filled through the draft. Drafting someone based on need, but taking a guy who is not going to produce for several years stops being a "need" pick. He becomes a high risk BPA pick.

Back to defining the Suns needs, I think they are less about position and more about function. I think the Suns primary need is better defense - NOW. The Suns can score, they just can't stop anybody. My top prospects are all athletic but better on defense than offense.

I'm very consistent. I like Blount more than Okur, because he is better on defense. I like Barry over Nash because he is better on defnese. I like Iggy over Josh Smith because he is better on defense. I like Biedrins over Andi and Pavel because Biedrins is better on defense NOW. I'd take Gordon over Harris because he is better on defense.

The Pistons are showing just how valuable it is to have a great defense, but every other team in that made the second round did it with defense.

 

[Chaplin]

This is like deja vu with just about every other thread on this board!!

 

[George O'Brien]

This is like deja vu with just about every other thread on this board!!

I know. I guess I get frustrated with all the hype of guys like Josh Smith and Livingston and Andi who have no defense skills at all. While arguing with people on the board is just an exercise, my real concern is that the Suns will actually go for a guy with no defensive skills like they did last year with Zarko.

The Colangelos, the media, and the Suns fans all seem to be obsessed with offense. High scoring treams are a trademark of the Suns.

But so is not getting out of the first round. The Pistons are proving that it is possible to get to the finals without a superstar - IF you play great defense.

 

[F-Dog]

The Suns aren't going to get better on defense until the players that are here already are better on defense. Unless they've got the #1 pick (or they're the Mavericks), it's not possible for an NBA team to immediately improve on defense through the draft.

The Suns also aren't going to be emulating Detroit any time soon--not with the players they've got now. They're going to become a championship contender the same way Sacramento and Minnesota have--developing a core of good all-around players who are adequate defenders, then surrounding them with role players, some of whom will be defensive stalwarts.


What the Suns need most of all from this draft is another core player, because you can't have too many of those. As far as positional needs, they could use a center, swingman or point guard, in that order...but you know that already, of course.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But so is not getting out of the first round. The Pistons are proving that it is possible to get to the finals without a superstar - IF you play great defense.

The Pistons proved it's possible to get the Finals without a superstar IN THE EAST - This team wouldn't have made it to the Finals if they played in the west where all the talent is (assuming everyone's healthy in the Western conference) - Hell - if everyone was healthy in the West - the Lakers wouldn't be there - don't fool yourself George - it's only one game - and The Lakes are likely (unfortunaately) gonna win.

 

[Dr. Dumas]

But so is not getting out of the first round. The Pistons are proving that it is possible to get to the finals without a superstar - IF you play great defense.

The Lakers are proving again that it is possible to get to the finals with just offense-so where does that leave us in your debate for offense vs. defense?

 

[George O'Brien]

The Pistons proved it's possible to get the Finals without a superstar IN THE EAST - This team wouldn't have made it to the Finals if they played in the west where all the talent is (assuming everyone's healthy in the Western conference) - Hell - if everyone was healthy in the West - the Lakers wouldn't be there - don't fool yourself George - it's only one game - and The Lakes are likely (unfortunaately) gonna win.

I fear you are right, but I think the Pistons will make a series of it.

In any case, one key to defense is (beyond training in technique) is intensity. The best way to get this to happen is to have backups that also play defense. Otherwise, players will conserve energy knowing they have to play 40 minutes.

BTW, it would be nice to get another core player, but I'm reluctant to wait three or four years for projects like Livingston and Josh Smith to develop. I'd rather take someone with potential who has already proven he can play defense.

 

[arthurracoon]

The Lakers are proving again that it is possible to get to the finals with just offense-so where does that leave us in your debate for offense vs. defense?

But they have Shaq.

There is only one Shaq.

We don't have Shaq.

 

[Chaplin]

The Lakers are proving again that it is possible to get to the finals with just offense-so where does that leave us in your debate for offense vs. defense?

The Lakers won the Western Conference Finals primarily because of their defense.

 

[PhxGametime]

Suns have offensive players that can play defense:

Stoudemire has length and athleticism to be a defender - 1.2 STL 1.6 BLK aren't bad stats, experience should help here

Marion too has length and athleticism - 2.1 STL 1.3 BLK - decent stats, needs to stay on ground ala JJ

Johnson has size, length, good athleticism, and ability to defend several positions - 1.1 STL

Barbosa has size, length, and athleticism - 1.3 STL


IMO while I like bench players: Vujanic, Lampe, Cabarkapa, Voskuhl, and Jacobsen - these players aren't defenders. I'd like another defender like George O'Brien or a capable defender...

Josh Smith has ability with athleticism to be a defender with experience
Andre Iguodala is a top notch defender in THIS Draft
Biedrins has the ability to be a shot-blocker, with athleticism
I do like Gordon and Harris defensive capabilities
Okafor is premiere defender
Dwight Howard has the tools to be a defender in future
Deng - I don't know too much about but he does have great size and length
Pavel = size

etc. IMO Suns should keep pick - these 9 players have more defensive ability than bench players we have now. I worry that in Free Agency - Suns might look for a big name, more-so than a defender that can score.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I fear you are right, but I think the Pistons will make a series of it.

In any case, one key to defense is (beyond training in technique) is intensity. The best way to get this to happen is to have backups that also play defense. Otherwise, players will conserve energy knowing they have to play 40 minutes.

BTW, it would be nice to get another core player, but I'm reluctant to wait three or four years for projects like Livingston and Josh Smith to develop. I'd rather take someone with potential who has already proven he can play defense.

no one in this draft has truly proven they can play defense. to depend on anyone out of this draft as a core member of the squad for NEXT year is delusional. this is a draft of potential. taking someone 'cuz they are more ready for next year is likely going to look REALLY bad (not just a little bad) in two or three years. take the best player. ALWAYS. if they're even, take the one that fills the need.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'd like another defender like George O'Brien or a capable defender...

i think george is a highly overrated defender. slow feet, bad anticipation, and he gets pushed around a lot. his stats are misleading.

 

[Yuma]

The Suns needs? To have won a coin toss for Lew Alcindor. The rest is history!

 

[cly2tw]

Suns have only one reasonably good defender in JJ and a potentially good one in Amare since he is still young. That's the biggest problem to be fixed. Get Kobe and get rid of Marion as starters will heal this problem.

 

[George O'Brien]

i think george is a highly overrated defender. slow feet, bad anticipation, and he gets pushed around a lot. his stats are misleading.

Hey, I can be as defensive as anybody on this board.

BTW, I am not convinced that the guys with better defensive skills have much if any less potential than the guys who are offense first oriented players.

Biedrins is an extremely athletic guy who is almost 7'0" with a 34 inch vertical leap and long arms. I think in a few years he could become a taller version of Ben Wallace, but with better offensive skills. Big Ben did not tear up the league when he first came up and is now an all star.

Reports say Iggy is extremely athletic with almost a 40" vertical leap, the ball handling skills that he might become a point guard, and extremely long arms. I would love to see him developed as a point guard which would create enormous matchup problems for opponents. If Livingston is worthy of a #4, why not take Iggy who is quicker, stronger, and a much better defender.

My point is that the guys I'm interested are great athletes along with being defense oriented. I really like their long range potential.

At the same time, I think Childress and Harris will be good players but don't have the upside of some of the prospects.

 

[pokerface]

This is easy...we take Pavel and hope he learns the game.

 

[pokerface]

Center is another huge need, but not one that can obviously be filled through the draft. Drafting someone based on need, but taking a guy who is not going to produce for several years stops being a "need" pick. He becomes a high risk BPA pick.

Yeah that would be awful if we actually had to wait on a player to develop...especially a center. We never needed one so why stop now? I mean heck...we were so close to the finals this season and all. We're on the edge of greatness so no time to wait! Lets pick a player thats slighlty better than the rest so he can contribute a few extra points and block an extra shot a game...that would be coooool. If some other team wants to wait on a stud then thats their folly....LETS LIVE IN THE NOW BABY!!!!

 

[Errntknght]

I'm with you George on what the Suns should do in the draft but I don't think they will do it. The last player they drafted for his defense was Dan Marjele and the last one before that was Charles Jones, who they promptly cut. I think they're going to get cute this year - draft MA and leave him in Europe to conserve cap space. No matter that he's the flimsiest player on four continents, in a mere three years they'll have a 7'3 zone buster, assuming he pans out.

In the expansion poker game they'll use Cleveland's future pick to shed White. After failing to acquire Kobe they'll lob big bucks at Okur just so they won't come up empty with all the money they managed to free up. They'll probably insist on paying him 10 million per annum so everyone will know they stole a major player from the NBA champs.

 

[George O'Brien]

Yeah that would be awful if we actually had to wait on a player to develop...especially a center. We never needed one so why stop now? I mean heck...we were so close to the finals this season and all. We're on the edge of greatness so no time to wait! Lets pick a player thats slighlty better than the rest so he can contribute a few extra points and block an extra shot a game...that would be coooool. If some other team wants to wait on a stud then thats their folly....LETS LIVE IN THE NOW BABY!!!!

There is waiting and there is waiting. Big men do take longer to develop into full fledged players, but they should be able to contribute something by their second season. Nikoloz Tskitishvili played a total of 307 minutes this past season (Lampe had 225 and Darko had 175). Is Tskitishvili a bust or just slow in developing? He was taken 5th ahead of:

7. Maybyner Hilario
8. Chris Wilcox
9. Amare Stoudemire
10. Caron Butler

Nikoloz makes $2.9 million this coming season. BTW, he is much bigger than his listed weight.

Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Denver Nuggets
Position: F
Height: 7-0 Weight: 225
From: Georgia (Europe)
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 2.7
RPG 1.6
APG .3
SPG .15
BPG .21
FG% .328
FT% .793
3P% .273
MPG 7.9

Kiki still thinks he might be a player, but no one else does. Tskitishvili was a great workout player who had never produced much in Europe. Everybody was in love with his "potential", his athleticism, and his outside shooting. But it never translated into actual performance.

Maybe someday?

 

[pokerface]

My sarcastic point was we have time so who cares.

Tskitishvili was a project comeing and still is but I dont see the Nuggets giving upon him. Tskitishvili hasnt prevented Denver from going to the playoffs either. Besides you fail to mention late bloomers like Jermaine O'Neil and Ben Wallace.etc etc...Plus guys like Darko are apparently worth the wait and still have value. I believe many of us would love to take on Darko based just on his natural ability...not caring about his lack of playing time. Bottomline some players are worth the wait and obvioulsy there are no sure things. Going back to Tskitishvili I could also counter with look at Jay Williams when he came into the league...He was supposed to be NBA ready (sure thing) and all that but yet he struggled all over the place.

 

[elindholm]

There's no problem waiting if you are confident the player will eventually get there. But lots of times potential doesn't pan out. I criticized the Suns at the start of this season for giving up on Tsakalidis too soon, but now, a year later, it looks like they were right and I was wrong.

 

[pokerface]

There's no problem waiting if you are confident the player will eventually get there. But lots of times potential doesn't pan out. I criticized the Suns at the start of this season for giving up on Tsakalidis too soon, but now, a year later, it looks like they were right and I was wrong.

Just because Tsakalidis was a failure doesnt mean we give up either. Besides Tsak wasnt such a failure for being 21st in the draft...its all relative. I just think if we dont pick a center in the draft chances are we'll never get an adequete one. One doesnt see too many good centers in free agency..usually they're kept and treasured.

I dont like this talk about "we'll have to wait too long for them to develop"...like what else do we have going on? If we were close to something then I might see the need to rush it. IMO we have time still so lets take advantage of it. Some things are worth the wait.

 

[George O'Brien]

The further a player is from being ready to play, the greater the chances are that he will never be a player. I have been one who is constantly preaching patience when it comes to guys like JJ, Lampe, Barbosa, and Carbakapa. How many times have these guys been ripped because they aren't playing like five year veterans?

But at the same time, I was probably the only person on this board that was excited when it was announced that Trybanski would be going to the Knicks. He is scheduled to make $1.7 million next season and played a TOTAL of 15 minutes this season. Memphis signed him as a free agent in 2002, apparently based on his workouts.

His is 7'2 240 pounds.

Here is his profile in HoopsHype: "A project ... Was not even a dominant player in Poland... Very long... Looked quite skilled on the offensive end against weaker competition... Great mobility for his size."

I would feel a lot more comfortable taking MA or Pavel if they actually produced on the basketball court against quality competition. They haven't.

 

[binkar]

The Suns aren't going to get better on defense until the players that are here already are better on defense. Unless they've got the #1 pick (or they're the Mavericks), it's not possible for an NBA team to immediately improve on defense through the draft.

Sorry F-Dog but I somewhat disagree. I agree in the sense that in order for our team to have a good defense the players already there must improve but to say a new player cant improve the defense isnt right. To get better on defense you must add good defenders. If we get someone who can shut down another star player that immedietly improves your defense.

 

[George O'Brien]

Sorry F-Dog but I somewhat disagree. I agree in the sense that in order for our team to have a good defense the players already there must improve but to say a new player cant improve the defense isnt right. To get better on defense you must add good defenders. If we get someone who can shut down another star player that immedietly improves your defense.

Another key to good defense is depth. It is very valuable to have good defenders to come off the bench. I don't think players can really do an adequate job on defense if they are forced to play 40+ minutes a game.