What can (or should) be done to fix the team this season?

[Hoop Head]

Maybe I am wrong, but if you are IT, do you really want to move to PHX? You really want to work when you are a millionaire? Much easier to be a consultant and not have to do the heavy lifting.

Who doesn't want to be a millionaire in Scottsdale? I don't see that as an issue.

 

[Yuma]

Who doesn't want to be a millionaire in Scottsdale? I don't see that as an issue.

He's always struck me as Mr. Rustbelt. No way he's leaving Detroit.

 

[Hoop Head]

He's always struck me as Mr. Rustbelt. No way he's leaving Detroit.

He's been in New York almost the last 2 decades. He was running their G-League team not all that long ago. Yes, Isiah Thomas was running a WNBA team about 6-7 years after he was ousted from the Knicks for his sexual harassment stuff. He even tried to buy them but his ownership application was denied. He was still president of the team, the Liberty up until 2019.

 

[Yuma]

He's been in New York almost the last 2 decades. He was running their G-League team not all that long ago. Yes, Isiah Thomas was running a WNBA team about 6-7 years after he was ousted from the Knicks for his sexual harassment stuff. He even tried to buy them but his ownership application was denied. He was still president of the team, the Liberty up until 2019.

Yeah, he's an east coast guy. Too hot for those guys here! I remember Beal was real honest about moving here in the summer.

 

[Hoop Head]

Found this site, https://dunksandthrees.com/ , which has some cool stats. One stat I found concerning but not surprising is we have the slowest offense in the league. Our average offensive possession is 15.1 seconds. The fastest in the league is Indiana at 13.5 seconds. That's not to say faster is always better though as Indiana is followed by Washington, Atlanta, and Detroit. Sacramento is #5 so no one thinks fast = bad. It's a mixed bag, as it is on the slower end with #29 being New York and #28 Denver. It does help highlight we need to run more as we don't have a Jokic initiating our offense.

Our strength of schedule is awful though. We've had the easiest schedule in the league so far and we're losing those games. Looking at advanced stats points to our defense as we're allowing bad teams to look great on offense, as witnessed vs Washington and San Antonio. We need to get it together or at the very least start trying to out gun other teams. We can't afford to be awful defensively and slow offensively going forward. Hopefully tonight was a step in the right direction.

 

[mjb21aztd]

Who doesn't want to be a millionaire in Scottsdale? I don't see that as an issue.

Id buy a ton of edibles and go hit all the late n hot women clubs might run into kd or dbook lol jkin

 

[1982baskets]

We can't get our own picks back - but that doesn't mean a rebuild isn't inevitable if this keeps up for the rest of the season.

No owner is going to pay 50-100 million in tax for a team that doesn't make the playoff or gets out in the first round.

I think the owner will see that his key investment over the offseason (Beal) was not healthy. This team was built in mind that Beal would be an all-star level player for them. 30 games in, Beal's impact is zero, even less than if he were a veteran minimum signing.

Look I don't know why a competent owner would think this is all on a coach who has won a championship and knows what it takes to win a title in the league. The way I see it, the Suns don't have a PG because they moved their best one for Beal. The plan was for Beal, Durant and Booker to share the PG duties. The result has been that we neither have the star power of a big 3 nor do we have a PG that can create offense for the remaining big 2 (KD/Book). What we're seeing is neither Durant or Booker are being maximized.

This is the worse case scenario playing out, Beal has been injury prone, unable to make any impact. Book does not look like he is able to do what Harden did when he got switched to PG in Houston, our new/supporting cast of role players are not good defensively, meaning all of that makes the coaches plans being very limited, and the result is we're a very ordinary .500 type of team.

We need a PG who can facilitate Booker/Durant (even if he comes off the bench). We need a few defenders that are actually playable. Even our lineup last night, it's laughable how small we are at the 3/2. That's not going to get it done. Why are we running Gordon and Grayon together? Because they can make shots and the metrics show that lineup does best of all the rest. Even though defensively, that combination of Grayson/Gordon with Booker is way too little defense.

 

[Phrazbit]

Found this site, https://dunksandthrees.com/ , which has some cool stats. One stat I found concerning but not surprising is we have the slowest offense in the league. Our average offensive possession is 15.1 seconds. The fastest in the league is Indiana at 13.5 seconds. That's not to say faster is always better though as Indiana is followed by Washington, Atlanta, and Detroit. Sacramento is #5 so no one thinks fast = bad. It's a mixed bag, as it is on the slower end with #29 being New York and #28 Denver. It does help highlight we need to run more as we don't have a Jokic initiating our offense.

Our strength of schedule is awful though. We've had the easiest schedule in the league so far and we're losing those games. Looking at advanced stats points to our defense as we're allowing bad teams to look great on offense, as witnessed vs Washington and San Antonio. We need to get it together or at the very least start trying to out gun other teams. We can't afford to be awful defensively and slow offensively going forward. Hopefully tonight was a step in the right direction.

This has been my gripe for a while, I've said it in other threads.

We can't build large leads on teams because we play so slow that we're never really able to put a team away, combine that with our leaky defense and no lead is safe.

Good teams make big runs by shooting well but, most importantly, turning defense into offense, getting a stop and rapidly attacking. The style this team has been playing, basically since the trade, has not allowed for that. Even though this is a team full of guys that play below the rim and are not burners, they still have the ability and the shooting talent to attack in transition, they simply don't. Golden State has, for years, been a team lacking in speed and athleticism, but they make it work because they attack, they run and look for the first shot available. There is no reason we can't do the same.

They did a better job of attacking quickly last night, but they need to build on that. No more of this, getting a stop, and walking the ball to mid court... guys on the wings need to RUN THE FLOOR, force the defense to react, don't let them get set.

Booker, Durant, Gordon... these guys seem so sure of their ability to make tough shots that they are not trying to get easy ones and it really hurts us.

Run the court fellas!

 

[CardNots]

Yeah, he's an east coast guy. Too hot for those guys here! I remember Beal was real honest about moving here in the summer.

I still remember the day I had rode into Phoenix in late May on a motorcycle no less. An eye opening experience not recommended for those with borderline intelligence…

 

[Phrazbit]

He's always struck me as Mr. Rustbelt. No way he's leaving Detroit.

He's been in New York almost the last 2 decades. He was running their G-League team not all that long ago. Yes, Isiah Thomas was running a WNBA team about 6-7 years after he was ousted from the Knicks for his sexual harassment stuff. He even tried to buy them but his ownership application was denied. He was still president of the team, the Liberty up until 2019.

Yeah, he's an east coast guy. Too hot for those guys here! I remember Beal was real honest about moving here in the summer.

I think you guys need to brush up on your Isiah Thomas history.

There is no limit to his ambition and his incompetence. I have little doubt that he is desperate to get his claws in a team and repair his, well earned, image as an utterly incompetent moron.

This guy ran an entire league into the ground in a few short years, he had the most expensive team and worse team in the NBA at the same time, anything he has been left in charge of has been enveloped in scandal and stupidity.

Isiah Thomas would probably give a limb to be openly given the chance to redeem himself, but it would result in the utter destruction of whatever he is given the reigns over, as it always has.

 

[taz02]

I think the owner will see that his key investment over the offseason (Beal) was not healthy. This team was built in mind that Beal would be an all-star level player for them. 30 games in, Beal's impact is zero, even less than if he were a veteran minimum signing.

Look I don't know why a competent owner would think this is all on a coach who has won a championship and knows what it takes to win a title in the league. The way I see it, the Suns don't have a PG because they moved their best one for Beal. The plan was for Beal, Durant and Booker to share the PG duties. The result has been that we neither have the star power of a big 3 nor do we have a PG that can create offense for the remaining big 2 (KD/Book). What we're seeing is neither Durant or Booker are being maximized.

This is the worse case scenario playing out, Beal has been injury prone, unable to make any impact. Book does not look like he is able to do what Harden did when he got switched to PG in Houston, our new/supporting cast of role players are not good defensively, meaning all of that makes the coaches plans being very limited, and the result is we're a very ordinary .500 type of team.

We need a PG who can facilitate Booker/Durant (even if he comes off the bench). We need a few defenders that are actually playable. Even our lineup last night, it's laughable how small we are at the 3/2. That's not going to get it done. Why are we running Gordon and Grayon together? Because they can make shots and the metrics show that lineup does best of all the rest. Even though defensively, that combination of Grayson/Gordon with Booker is way too little defense.

Even with the injury to Beal the team should be playing better. Last nights game is how I expect them to play consistently. Not necessarily winning every game but a competent cohesive effort.

Its not like the team played with Beal as a central piece for most of the season then he was suddenly gone and had to adjust. A team with KD and Booker should play consistently better.

For me, I have no idea what the problem is or was. I guess I hope its coaching since that appears to be the easiest fix.

 

[clyde2tw]

Lack of proper preparation together with improper rotations is the main reason for the current Suns situation. The roster is better than the current record indicated.

On offense, we relied on Book and KD to create but without associated movements like cutting and screening wisely from other players, which made it hard for us to create comfortable scoring rooms. Particularly Book holds the ball too long with nowhere to go but forcing the issue. And when they give up the ball to others, they are also expected to create by themselves without much help. Noboy can be effective this way, particular when the ball is in hands of Goodwin, KBD, Yuta, to a lesser degree EG and Allen. They are set up to fail, without adequate preparations in practice. If this keeps up, we surely need a good PG or the likes of Monk and Reggie Jackson in their current form to turn it around.

On D, the main problem has been no proper communication on switching and scrambling, so that we gave up wide open shots so often. And Book has been the main culprit for it. And our P&R defense needs serious improvement.

All these problems seem to be addressed in the Houston win today, which gives me hope that we can still turn it around like last year. We moved a lot better offball, when KD and Book got doubled. Book also didn't hold the ball too long, so that EG also got chance to create a little. Azubuike set much better screens than Eubanks. Rockets' defense was very good that forced 19 TOs nevertheless. Our awareness for def. rotations was very good thoughout. Green hit most of his 6 3s with a defender in his face, unlike most of the 3s Brunson hit a week ago.

Rotation wise, Metu, Saben Lee and Azubuike seem to be better than Goodwin, Eubanks and Yuta. Particularly, Saben is IMO better than Goodwin, who is stronger fighting through screens on D and faster and more dangerous on drives. Vogel stuck to Yuta and Goodwin for too long, which cost us several wins just by that. So, if we keep paying attention to details in game preparation, we still have a chance.

 

[Proximo]

Lack of proper preparation together with improper rotations is the main reason for the current Suns situation. The roster is better than the current record indicated.

On offense, we relied on Book and KD to create but without associated movements like cutting and screening wisely from other players, which made it hard for us to create comfortable scoring rooms. Particularly Book holds the ball too long with nowhere to go but forcing the issue. And when they give up the ball to others, they are also expected to create by themselves without much help. Noboy can be effective this way, particular when the ball is in hands of Goodwin, KBD, Yuta, to a lesser degree EG and Allen. They are set up to fail, without adequate preparations in practice. If this keeps up, we surely need a good PG or the likes of Monk and Reggie Jackson in their current form to turn it around.

On D, the main problem has been no proper communication on switching and scrambling, so that we gave up wide open shots so often. And Book has been the main culprit for it. And our P&R defense needs serious improvement.

All these problems seem to be addressed in the Houston win today, which gives me hope that we can still turn it around like last year. We moved a lot better offball, when KD and Book got doubled. Book also didn't hold the ball too long, so that EG also got chance to create a little. Azubuike set much better screens than Eubanks. Rockets' defense was very good that forced 19 TOs nevertheless. Our awareness for def. rotations was very good thoughout. Green hit most of his 6 3s with a defender in his face, unlike most of the 3s Brunson hit a week ago.

Rotation wise, Metu, Saben Lee and Azubuike seem to be better than Goodwin, Eubanks and Yuta. Particularly, Saben is IMO better than Goodwin, who is stronger fighting through screens on D and faster and more dangerous on drives. Vogel stuck to Yuta and Goodwin for too long, which cost us several wins just by that. So, if we keep paying attention to details in game preparation, we still have a chance.

Agree with everything except your take on Lee vs Goodwin.

Goodwin is without question superior. He has just been in a shooting slump as of late. He's a better passer, a better defender by a longshot, and a better shooter. Only thing Lee is superior at is driving to the rim.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I still believe that continuity is one of the main reasons we are having these struggles. Add to that the fact that everyone is learning a new coaches concepts and that provides a recipe for some very ugly play.

I am also curious if maybe Vogel came in and threw too much at these guys early on as that is something that can be an issue when a new coach comes in.

I'm not terribly confident that this team as constructed has much along the lines of championship aspirations, but I do believe that they can be significantly better than they have been with some more time on court together and some tweaks to some concepts, especially on offense.

 

[clyde2tw]

Agree with everything except your take on Lee vs Goodwin.

Goodwin is without question superior. He has just been in a shooting slump as of late. He's a better passer, a better defender by a longshot, and a better shooter. Only thing Lee is superior at is driving to the rim.

But that superior driving ability is most crucial to get the defense collapse, compared to stagnant offense with Goodwin handling the ball. Goodwin is a scrappy kind of player with excellent nose to fight for steals and lose balls, but in that capacity he's kinda redundant with Okogie who is much better at man-defense.

 

[Yuma]

Lack of proper preparation together with improper rotations is the main reason for the current Suns situation. The roster is better than the current record indicated.

On offense, we relied on Book and KD to create but without associated movements like cutting and screening wisely from other players, which made it hard for us to create comfortable scoring rooms. Particularly Book holds the ball too long with nowhere to go but forcing the issue. And when they give up the ball to others, they are also expected to create by themselves without much help. Noboy can be effective this way, particular when the ball is in hands of Goodwin, KBD, Yuta, to a lesser degree EG and Allen. They are set up to fail, without adequate preparations in practice. If this keeps up, we surely need a good PG or the likes of Monk and Reggie Jackson in their current form to turn it around.

On D, the main problem has been no proper communication on switching and scrambling, so that we gave up wide open shots so often. And Book has been the main culprit for it. And our P&R defense needs serious improvement.

All these problems seem to be addressed in the Houston win today, which gives me hope that we can still turn it around like last year. We moved a lot better offball, when KD and Book got doubled. Book also didn't hold the ball too long, so that EG also got chance to create a little. Azubuike set much better screens than Eubanks. Rockets' defense was very good that forced 19 TOs nevertheless. Our awareness for def. rotations was very good thoughout. Green hit most of his 6 3s with a defender in his face, unlike most of the 3s Brunson hit a week ago.

Rotation wise, Metu, Saben Lee and Azubuike seem to be better than Goodwin, Eubanks and Yuta. Particularly, Saben is IMO better than Goodwin, who is stronger fighting through screens on D and faster and more dangerous on drives. Vogel stuck to Yuta and Goodwin for too long, which cost us several wins just by that. So, if we keep paying attention to details in game preparation, we still have a chance.

Yeah, turn overs need to be emphasized. This stat is killing us. The last couple games we are getting up more threes. So that is coming around. Rebounding is hit and miss, but getting better, too. I like how Vogel acknowledged the simple math of our team getting up more shots than opponents will lead to wins. So they ARE seeing what we see. Let's give what happened in Houston a few games more to see if this becomes a trend.

 

[Yuma]

But that superior driving ability is most crucial to get the defense collapse, compared to stagnant offense with Goodwin handling the ball. Goodwin is a scrappy kind of player with excellent nose to fight for steals and lose balls, but in that capacity he's kinda redundant with Okogie who is much better at man-defense.

Agree. However, Goodwin seems a little more willing to shoot than Josh right now. Both guys need to concentrate more on getting their shots up, because they will be played off of in order to double KD and Book, and will be given the open looks. Whichever guy is willing to shoot and make shots is going to get the edge.

 

[clyde2tw]

Agree. However, Goodwin seems a little more willing to shoot than Josh right now. Both guys need to concentrate more on getting their shots up, because they will be played off of in order to double KD and Book, and will be given the open looks. Whichever guy is willing to shoot and make shots is going to get the edge.

The issue with Josh is he will never be a reliable shooter, but he has the rare defensive talent of similar kind of Dennis Rodman. To consistent play him, coach needs to install more off-ball cutting and screening movements to not make him a stationary 3pt shooter in the first place.

 

[SirStefan32]

On offense, the main issue is the lack of movement. If three or four guys are not moving, teams can get away with doubling the ball-handler. This leads to turnovers. On top of that, they seem to forget some fundamentals. I am sick of watching fast breaks where players are not spreading out. They also need to focus on making the simple pass instead of trying to be fancy. If players starts moving, easy passes with be there. They also need to run- they need to play more like Nash and less than CP3. Last, but certainly not the least, take the damn open shot! Especially EG and GA. These are all things that can be easily fixed.

Defensively, it's more complex. They have "three" guys and they have "D" guys, but they don't have guys who are both. Okogie is an outstanding point of attack defender, but he is useless on offense, especially behind the three point line. Goodwin is probably the next best defender, but is also a very streaky/ unreliable shooter. Gordon and Allen can shoot the three but they really can't play point of attack defense. They can get better at rotations, help defense, and some other things, but I don't see how to solve this problem entirely.

Their best bet is to fix the issues on offense and become the number one offense in the league while getting to the point where they are slightly above average defensively. There probably is a lineup out there that can hold the other teams' second units off for a few minutes here and there, but if the Suns want to be serious contenders, those offensive issue have to be resolved and they have to become THE top offense in the league.

 

[clyde2tw]

On offense, the main issue is the lack of movement. If three or four guys are not moving, teams can get away with doubling the ball-handler. This leads to turnovers. On top of that, they seem to forget some fundamentals. I am sick of watching fast breaks where players are not spreading out. They also need to focus on making the simple pass instead of trying to be fancy. If players starts moving, easy passes with be there. They also need to run- they need to play more like Nash and less than CP3. Last, but certainly not the least, take the damn open shot! Especially EG and GA. These are all things that can be easily fixed.

Defensively, it's more complex. They have "three" guys and they have "D" guys, but they don't have guys who are both. Okogie is an outstanding point of attack defender, but he is useless on offense, especially behind the three point line. Goodwin is probably the next best defender, but is also a very streaky/ unreliable shooter. Gordon and Allen can shoot the three but they really can't play point of attack defense. They can get better at rotations, help defense, and some other things, but I don't see how to solve this problem entirely.

Their best bet is to fix the issues on offense and become the number one offense in the league while getting to the point where they are slightly above average defensively. There probably is a lineup out there that can hold the other teams' second units off for a few minutes here and there, but if the Suns want to be serious contenders, those offensive issue have to be resolved and they have to become THE top offense in the league.

In the Knicks game Beal got nice screens to catch and shoot with success, but got unfortunate injuries there. We need to have more of the same for all of our shooter including KD, Book, Gordon and Allen when hot. In those sets, Okogie can be useful.

 

[1982baskets]

We have something like 9 veteran minimum players on a newly put together team with only 2 starters returning from last year. It is a complete overhaul, and the team would not have chemistry at all. To expect them to play at an elite level with injuries to Beal, I don't know.

I think 16-15 is about what this team's situation warrants. We're not particularly talented on defense. Unless players like Azubuike, Metu, etc all begin to earn minutes, we don't have a lot of proven talent that can defend. So then we needed an elite powerhouse offense, which we could have if Beal is healthy, but the issue has been two fold, Beal hasn't been healthy (looks shell of a star so far in his 6-7 games) and then we don't have a single PG who is a NBA top 8 rotation level PG, meaning your offense will get disorganized real quick.

This was not a well put together roster. It was a "lets trade for big star talent, then figure out the rest after" type of plan. Now they're in the figuring out phase.

Here's my "realistic" hopes for the rest of the season. 1) Beal stays healthy here on out with KD/Book. 2) Metu/Azuibuke and players such as that can show they are top 8-9 rotation level players helping our defense/length a lot. 3) We can trade for a rotation level PG who can help Book/Beal on the ballhandling and initiating offense duties. If all 3 things happen, I can see us get into the playoffs and make some noise. Otherwise, it's gonna be what it already currently is.

 

[Yuma]

The whole thing is KD and Book haven't been together a calendar year yet. We traded for KD during 2023. All this change is less than a year old. We are going to have growing pains. One of the concerns I have is Vogel got a training camp to set stuff up, and we still look lost out there at times. This implies we are still working on things schematically. I get that teams change how they defend us, but these moves and counter moves should have been baked in by now. Just enjoying the last two games. I am hoping we rip off a 6-10 game win streak to move us back into decent playoff seeding.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

On offense, the main issue is the lack of movement. If three or four guys are not moving, teams can get away with doubling the ball-handler. This leads to turnovers. On top of that, they seem to forget some fundamentals. I am sick of watching fast breaks where players are not spreading out. They also need to focus on making the simple pass instead of trying to be fancy. If players starts moving, easy passes with be there. They also need to run- they need to play more like Nash and less than CP3. Last, but certainly not the least, take the damn open shot! Especially EG and GA. These are all things that can be easily fixed.

Defensively, it's more complex. They have "three" guys and they have "D" guys, but they don't have guys who are both. Okogie is an outstanding point of attack defender, but he is useless on offense, especially behind the three point line. Goodwin is probably the next best defender, but is also a very streaky/ unreliable shooter. Gordon and Allen can shoot the three but they really can't play point of attack defense. They can get better at rotations, help defense, and some other things, but I don't see how to solve this problem entirely.

Their best bet is to fix the issues on offense and become the number one offense in the league while getting to the point where they are slightly above average defensively. There probably is a lineup out there that can hold the other teams' second units off for a few minutes here and there, but if the Suns want to be serious contenders, those offensive issue have to be resolved and they have to become THE top offense in the league.

The offense is specifically why I thought this team was one of the favorites for the title at the start of the season. They have the personnel to potentially be that top offense in the league and I think they can do just this with health and some minor tweaks from here on out.

The defense is clearly not going to be elite, but considering the amount of open shots that are a result of poor rotations it can certainly be much better than it has been. Being top 10 on defense by the end of the season isn't out of the realm of possibility.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The offense is specifically why I thought this team was one of the favorites for the title at the start of the season. They have the personnel to potentially be that top offense in the league and I think they can do just this with health and some minor tweaks from here on out.

The defense is clearly not going to be elite, but considering the amount of open shots that are a result of poor rotations it can certainly be much better than it has been. Being top 10 on defense by the end of the season isn't out of the realm of possibility.

If we can get/stay healthy I think we can lead the league in offensive efficiency but given the pace we play at, I'm not sure we'll ever be the "top offense". And without a true PG, I don't know how much faster we can play. Regardless, we have enough offensive talent to dominate lesser teams if we can reduce our live ball turnovers.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

If we can get/stay healthy I think we can lead the league in offensive efficiency but given the pace we play at, I'm not sure we'll ever be the "top offense". And without a true PG, I don't know how much faster we can play. Regardless, we have enough offensive talent to dominate lesser teams if we can reduce our live ball turnovers.

What makes someone the top offense outside of efficiency? Fact is that playing at a slow pace means your opponent doesn't get as many shots either. We don't need the fastest pace. Philly is currently the top offense and they are just 13th in pace.

I don't necessarily care about how fast the team plays as long as they are playing at enough pace to not get bogged down and lose efficiency.