What did you expect from Watson as the coach?

StreetTruckinTitan

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I was expecting Watson to play the rookies more than he has this season.

Bender and Ulis in particular have barely got any opportunities this season.


Id actually like the Suns to send down to NAZ, Bender, Chriss and maybe Ulis to work on their games and to get meaningful minutes in actual game situations. Right now they're just getting over powered by bigger stronger and more experienced NBA players. These kids need to get stronger and hone their craft. The NAZ is a place to do it.
Btw; Send Lenny down too.
 

sunsfan88

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Id actually like the Suns to send down to NAZ, Bender, Chriss and maybe Ulis to work on their games and to get meaningful minutes in actual game situations. Right now they're just getting over powered by bigger stronger and more experienced NBA players. These kids need to get stronger and hone their craft. The NAZ is a place to do it.
Btw; Send Lenny down too.
Brandon Knight and Tucker could some time there too, they seem to struggle in actual game situations as well.
 
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Hoop Head

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Right now we're getting 1 + 1 = -1 because of the impact Knight's demotion is having on him personally and the the second unit as a whole. The guy averaged 20 and 5 last season on reasonable fg% (.415%) which are starter numbers on most teams, so he's obviously feeling stiffed...Watson's pre-season words about Knight accepting his 6th man role are clearly not true as the evidence is staring at us right in the face.

It's childish and egocentric and certainly we can blame Knight in part for it, but I can also understand it, rightly or wrongly, on the basis of his own perceived role on the team when looking at his stats last year; 20 and 5 are solid numbers.

Which means Watson is also to blame because he didn't recognise this egocentricity / vulnerability in Knight; while a tough one to spot, he missed the obvious signs that we all picked up on when Knight assumed he would maintain his starting spot through various interviews in the pre-season. There was clearly some strong reluctance there.

So IMO it's another player psychology / team psychology / 'chemistry' fail; I've raised my concerns about McD's inability to understand this essential part of team success vis a vis his total mishandling of Dragic, and this looks to be a continuation of the trend, albeit not as large nor obvious a mistake as the Dragic situation was. Perhaps the following statement is made too easily with the benefit of hindsight but I'm almost certain a better coach would have spotted these signs and kept Booker on the bench.

By doing this, he would have deflated his ego a bit - nothing wrong with doing that to a young (very), hungry, talented player - and it would almost certainly have brought out a better Knight that what we're seeing. Like I said, there is something seriously wrong in front of us.

The worry for me (actually it's more like an expectation than a worry) is that our incompetent management team will scapegoat Knight and freeze him out rather than look for a solution, which I think his promotion to the starting team is the only one. By doing this (as mentioned in the previous post) Knight get's an ego reflate, hopefully his stats pad up and we can then trade him for reasonable value. And who knows, maybe we decide we want to keep him because 20 and 5 at $14m per is pretty good value in the current climate.

And it's hardly going to ruffle Booker too much - he's a stronger character than Knight, he's not going anywhere and must know he's the future starting 2 guard of this organisation for the next decade, he's only 18 so his ego hasn't run wild yet meaning he'll more readily take orders and understand that a) it's a decision for the better of the team and b) he is unquestionably the floor leader of the second unit meaning he can do what he likes, and maybe even learn the point guard role better and c) it may only be a short term 'demotion' if Knight improves enough that we can find a taker for him in the trading window.

Nice ideas of course but we've got McD and Watson running the show so look for this to get a whole lot worse before it gets better.


You don't cave and accomodate a malcontent who has a me first attitude while demoting a team first player who is a part of this teams future just to placate Knight for a while. If he wants traded then he needs to step it up. Right now even if they trade him he'd be lucky to start where he ends up. They tried caving to a players tantrum last year with Markieff and that killed half of the season for the team, they shouldn't repeat the same behavior with Knight.
 

sunsfan88

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I wasn't expecting championship but I sure was hoping he could lead a turn around from years past. Kinda like what Walton has done with the Lakers with less talent than the Suns.

I think Walton could make players like Bledsoe and Knight perform well and consistently in his system as opposed to the Suns free style offense that they run here.

Something even close to this would've been nice

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3rdside

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You don't cave and accomodate a malcontent who has a me first attitude while demoting a team first player who is a part of this teams future just to placate Knight for a while. If he wants traded then he needs to step it up. Right now even if they trade him he'd be lucky to start where he ends up. They tried caving to a players tantrum last year with Markieff and that killed half of the season for the team, they shouldn't repeat the same behavior with Knight.

It's not caving to a malcontent, it's trying to solve a serious problem by not going down the "cutting off your nose to spite your face" route.

Re-reading what I wrote, I shouldn't have put the part about "who knows, maybe we decide to keep him" - I want the guy gone also for obvious reasons, but it would be good to get something of value in return. 20 and 5 says he's worth at least a late lottery pick but at this stage we'll have to give him away free. Why not placate him temporarily, showcase him that way and see what happens?

Because he nor the team can get much worse than what we're seeing right now.
 

3rdside

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Take two:

I guess that there are so many juvenile head cases in the NBA that it's surely par for the course for GM's to deal with them / re-accommodate them in a 'better situation', and I'm sure the Knight situation is not unique even though his comparative level of sucking might be.

Starting him in place of Booker from today might cause more problems than it's worth and he may not even pump his stats up all that much - it's probably too big of a risk therefore and also a case of the 'damage already done'. I still maintain it was a mistake to bench him, or at least not trade him earlier if we were going to start Booker; the product on court says as much.

The fact is he did get 20 and 5 last season on .415% so there's no reason to think he couldn't do it again in a 'better situation'. His value is what it is in other words and our best bet is to cut our losses and off load him for whatever we can get.
 

Carolinacacti

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Booker would be better off the bench then Knight. Play the rookies together and form some chemistry. Len, Bender, Chriss, Booker and the little big man
 

3rdside

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Booker would be better off the bench then Knight. Play the rookies together and form some chemistry. Len, Bender, Chriss, Booker and the little big man

I think that would have been the case to start the season but probably too late for that.
 
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Errntknght

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I wasn't expecting championship but I sure was hoping he could lead a turn around from years past. Kinda like what Walton has done with the Lakers with less talent than the Suns.

I think Walton could make players like Bledsoe and Knight perform well and consistently in his system as opposed to the Suns free style offense that they run here.

Something even close to this would've been nice

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Those are impressive stats but I'm wondering if you are not 'cherry picking' for this years stats. Currently the Lakers are 16th in 3 pt percentage not 5th and now 13th in FG %, not 4th. Still significant changes from last year - but, of course, they were tanking then and they are not now so you'd expect a good bit of improvement. I can't dispute your numbers from two weeks ago but why go so far back in time, except to bolster your case?

What made me suspicious was that those numbers are simply too good for a team that is below average on offense, as the Lakers are.

Would I rather have Walton than Watson? You bet!
 

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Here is a quote from a local (SLC, UT) news station/website "beat writer" this morning (KSL.com):
"Every time I watch Earl Watson's team play, I'm kind of confused about what his schemes are trying to accomplish on the floor. And then I listen to him talk off the court, and I immediately understand why he's an NBA coach: because he's a spectacular mentor for a young NBA team." - Andy Larsen

I guess I really don't appreciate what Watson does, because I would rather watch solid fundamental basketball instead of hearing about family. Or at least see that the scale is tipping to the former instead of the latter.
 
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Hoop Head

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If Watson had coached the Suns to the same record the Lakers currently have people would be pissed off because it would mean another late lotto pick. We have no business competing for a playoff spot right now. Booker, Len, and Chriss are consistently getting solid minutes, so was Warren prior to his injury. So Ulis and Bender aren't seeing as much court time as people would like but it's got to be hard to develop that many young players at once. People wanted Knight to move to the bench or be traded this offseason and the Suns moved him to the bench, he's underperformed and suddenly it's Watson to blame for that. I know most people didn't think he'd come off the bench and we'd be stuck going really small or having Booker come off the bench. Most fans got what they asked for and it's resulted in Knight sucking even more than he has previously. It's still better than the alternative, which would have been benching Booker or starting Bledsoe, Knight, and Booker at PG, SG, and SF. Then we wouldn't have seen TJ break out like he did early in the season and prove to be a piece worth keeping and building around for the future.

The whole thing kind of reminds me of how almost everyone hoped Frye would opt out of his contract after the 13-14 season because he was overpaid and the cap space would have helped the team in free agency. He signed for a large amount in Orlando and was gone, a deal most everyone said was an overpayment, then in 2014-15 the team showed that Frye was a part of their surprising season the year before and he was largely responsible for Dragic's success on the offense end as well as his leadership in the locker room. Halfway through the 2014-15 season the same fans who wanted Frye to opt out wanted him back, regardless of his contract being ridiculous or his under performing in Orlando. A lot of fans are short sighted and don't see the bigger picture, like things off the court. I'm not saying that anyone was right or wrong in either case but unless it involves trading a draft pick fans don't generally think long term and even if they get what they asked for rather than admit they were wrong they just change their stance.
 

sunsfan88

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If Watson had coached the Suns to the same record the Lakers currently have people would be pissed off because it would mean another late lotto pick. We have no business competing for a playoff spot right now. Booker, Len, and Chriss are consistently getting solid minutes, so was Warren prior to his injury. So Ulis and Bender aren't seeing as much court time as people would like but it's got to be hard to develop that many young players at once. People wanted Knight to move to the bench or be traded this offseason and the Suns moved him to the bench, he's underperformed and suddenly it's Watson to blame for that. I know most people didn't think he'd come off the bench and we'd be stuck going really small or having Booker come off the bench. Most fans got what they asked for and it's resulted in Knight sucking even more than he has previously. It's still better than the alternative, which would have been benching Booker or starting Bledsoe, Knight, and Booker at PG, SG, and SF. Then we wouldn't have seen TJ break out like he did early in the season and prove to be a piece worth keeping and building around for the future.

The whole thing kind of reminds me of how almost everyone hoped Frye would opt out of his contract after the 13-14 season because he was overpaid and the cap space would have helped the team in free agency. He signed for a large amount in Orlando and was gone, a deal most everyone said was an overpayment, then in 2014-15 the team showed that Frye was a part of their surprising season the year before and he was largely responsible for Dragic's success on the offense end as well as his leadership in the locker room. Halfway through the 2014-15 season the same fans who wanted Frye to opt out wanted him back, regardless of his contract being ridiculous or his under performing in Orlando. A lot of fans are short sighted and don't see the bigger picture, like things off the court. I'm not saying that anyone was right or wrong in either case but unless it involves trading a draft pick fans don't generally think long term and even if they get what they asked for rather than admit they were wrong they just change their stance.
Frye's only ever good when he has a first ballot HOFer on his team. First it was Nash then it was LeBron.

Whenever Frye has played on teams without neither Nash nor LeBron, he's been god awful. He was so bad in Orlando that Magic fans started a go fund me to try and raise money to pay out his contract. Wasn't successful obviously.

As for Walton and Watson, there's a difference in how the team plays. Were there people complaining about how the Suns were winning in 2013 when they won 48 games? No because they were an actual fun and entertaining team to watch. The Lakers are that right now. After the Warriors, the Lakers are probably the second most entertaining team in the league even despite their record not being anything that stellar. I've had to see a bunch of Laker games this season and they actually run a system and actually do this weird thing called passing the ball which looks cool.

Luke Walton has made Nick Young and Lou Williams look like NBA starting caliber players. I can't imagine what he would've been able to do with guys like PJ Tucker and Brandon Knight who are probably more talented than Young and Williams were before Walton got there.
 

elindholm

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Here is a quote from a local (SLC, UT) news station/website "beat writer" this morning (KSL.com):
"Every time I watch Earl Watson's team play, I'm kind of confused about what his schemes are trying to accomplish on the floor. And then I listen to him talk off the court, and I immediately understand why he's an NBA coach: because he's a spectacular mentor for a young NBA team." - Andy Larsen

What a weird quotation. "He doesn't get results, but he talks a good game, so that's why he has a job."
 

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Watson is a must-hire for player development, but he's proving to be a failure as a head coach. He seems to be actively going against the so-called philosophy of this team that McD and Sarver talk about. What exactly is he trying to do? Developing young players doesn't seem to be his MO. Stupid, IMO. Just stupid.
 

Mainstreet

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Here is a quote from a local (SLC, UT) news station/website "beat writer" this morning (KSL.com):
"Every time I watch Earl Watson's team play, I'm kind of confused about what his schemes are trying to accomplish on the floor. And then I listen to him talk off the court, and I immediately understand why he's an NBA coach: because he's a spectacular mentor for a young NBA team." - Andy Larsen

I guess I really don't appreciate what Watson does, because I would rather watch solid fundamental basketball instead of hearing about family. Or at least see that the scale is tipping to the former instead of the latter.

I do not see why mentoring and coaching need be mutually exclusive.
 

devilalum

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Watson is a must-hire for player development, but he's proving to be a failure as a head coach. He seems to be actively going against the so-called philosophy of this team that McD and Sarver talk about. What exactly is he trying to do? Developing young players doesn't seem to be his MO. Stupid, IMO. Just stupid.
I find it hard to believe that he's making those decisions on his own.

from phone
 

sunsfan88

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Watson is a must-hire for player development, but he's proving to be a failure as a head coach. He seems to be actively going against the so-called philosophy of this team that McD and Sarver talk about. What exactly is he trying to do? Developing young players doesn't seem to be his MO. Stupid, IMO. Just stupid.
I'm curious, what philosophy is that?
 

AzStevenCal

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I was gonna post something about us being so bad that maybe it is deliberate tanking but then I read this...it reads like satire almost and that's not a good thing.

http://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/i...a-earl-watson-phoenix-suns-family-john-wooden

Clearly, we come from two different worlds. Every word in that story is picture perfect IMO and does nothing but raise my interest in and respect for Watson. It doesn't mean he can coach but he's a very impressive gentleman AFAIC.
 

sunsfan88

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I was gonna post something about us being so bad that maybe it is deliberate tanking but then I read this...it reads like satire almost and that's not a good thing.

http://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/i...a-earl-watson-phoenix-suns-family-john-wooden


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That part about still having playoff hopes was cringe worthy.

I get that he can't admit to losing purposely to the media but why not just coin it as "we want to win as many as we can but the development of our youngsters is just as important", or something like that.

I also find it sort of funny that Watson claims to have all these influences like John Wodden, Jerry Sloan, and like a bunch of other NBA coaches on him and yet he still looks so clueless as a coach. Why is it that he didn't learn a thing about the Xs and Os about coaching basketball from those guys? Or did he only pay attention to their rah-rah talk and their yoga classes?
 

3rdside

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Clearly, we come from two different worlds. Every word in that story is picture perfect IMO and does nothing but raise my interest in and respect for Watson. It doesn't mean he can coach but he's a very impressive gentleman AFAIC.

Alright Steve..

"We're only 4 games out of the playoffs" - we suck.

"Bledsoe was top 5 in shots made from the elbow" - justification for this bullsh*t iso offence after being informed that the Suns are off the charts for this style of play.

"Do Knight's foot on the line 2 pointers annoy you"?. "No".

I'm not saying he's a bad guy - quite the opposite from the sounds of it - but he's definitely deluded.
 
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Hoop Head

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Alright Steve..

"We're only 4 games out of the playoffs" - we suck.

"Bledsoe was top 5 in shots made from the elbow" - justification for this bullsh*t iso offence after being informed that the Suns are off the charts for this style of play.

"Do Knight's foot on the line 2 pointers annoy you"?. "No".

I'm not saying he's a bad guy - quite the opposite from the sounds of it - but he's definitely deluded.

So throwing Bledsoe or Knight under the bus in an ESPN online piece is the way to handle it? What did you expect, honestly? "Sure, Knight sucks and I hate those shots but he doesn't listen." That kills our relationship with him and also kills his trade value as he now has an "uncoachable" label.
 

3rdside

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The post was to point out to Steve that the world I'm living on is a bit more cynical - and realistic - than his but I get where you're coming from.
 
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