What do you think happens with these guys?

[Evil Ash]

uh - Spurs fans also have an owner and a GM that know when and DO get key guys singed to contract extensions before they completely blow up - see Manu/Tony Parker. Not to mention that the Spurs have actually WON TITLES with their model, while we, as of yet, have not. And not to mention that the Spurs CONTINUALLY use the draft to keep their dynasty going, bridging one era to another.

Sarver can boast all of the above and use the Spurs as a model when he actually gets Boris signed to an extension and/or wins a title and shows that he can sustain a dynasty over a 10 year period - not gravy train off the basketball advice/knoweldge of the Colangelos. This is his shot and it all start with Boris Diaw this summer. Let's hope he learned his lesson from the JJ situation and doesn't let Boris get ot RFA with another year to let him really blow up.

He's only owned the team for 2 years and please don't bring up JJ because he wasn't worth the max (nor the $10 million a year he wanted after an inconsistent year).

Only time will tell what type of owner he will be. Basing everything on a 2 year span is moronic

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's only owned the team for 2 years and please don't bring up JJ because he wasn't worth the max (nor the $10 million a year he wanted after an inconsistent year).

Only time will tell what type of owner he will be. Basing everything on a 2 year span is moronic

why not bring up JJ? Did I say he was worth the MAX? No - but nice way to try and derail the discussion. Was he worth 5 years and 50 million, I'd say in the NBA - hell yes. Think about it this way - Manu got 5 years 52 million, yet only averaged 13 points per game, shot 40 percent and had worse averages in baords and assists, not to mention he was 4 years older than JJ AND was playing on a great team. Yet JJ averaged 16.7 points per game, was much younger and had developed into a VERY GOOD player in only his third year. To say he was inconsistent his first and second eyars, fine. But to say so in his 3rd year is strecthing the truth to fit your argument. Are we going to now do the same with Boris? Say he was inconsistent this year when he asks for similar typoe money and then when he blow sup this season, continue the merry go round of letting fresh young talent walk out the door?

Thanks for throwing the moronic part in there though Ash. I'd say it was moronic to compare Sarver to guys who have shown the ability to win multiple titles and create dynsasties, but hey, what do I know?

 

[Evil Ash]

why not bring up JJ? Did I say he was worth the MAX? No - but nice way to try and derail the discussion. Was he worth 5 years and 50 million, I'd say in the NBA - hell yes. Think about it this way - Manu got 5 years 52 million, yet only averaged 13 points per game and was 4 years older than JJ AND was playing on a great team. Yet JJ averaged 16.7 points per game, was much younger and had developed into a VERY GOOD player in only his third year. To say he was inconsistent his first and second eyars, fine. But to say so in his 3rd year is strecthing the truth to fit your argument. Are we going to now do the same with Boris? Say he was inconsistent this year when he asks for similar typoe money and then when he blow sup this season, continue the merry go round of letting fresh young talent walk out the door?

Thanks for throwing the moronic part in there though Ash. I'd say it was moronic to compare Sarver to guys who have shown the ability to win multiple titles and create dynsasties, but hey, what do I know?

During the time he has owned the team they've gone to the WCF both years. So obviously he knows nothing about what he's doing.

BTW SA hasn't won back to back titles yet so I wouldn't consider what they did a "dynasty"

 

[Cheesebeef]

And if you noticed Ash - I said Sarver has work to do this off-season - hence, I think logic would apply that I haven't judged him as owner overall yet. I'm waiting to see if he learns from his mistakes. That's what good owners do.

 

[Cheesebeef]

During the time he has owned the team they've gone to the WCF both years. So obviously he knows nothing about what he's doing.

BTW SA hasn't won back to back titles yet so I wouldn't consider what they did a "dynasty"

Jesus Ash - did I ever say Sarver knows nothing in what he's doing? Do you really have such little in retort that you have to make sweeping generalities that have very little to do with what I'm saying?

And give me a freaking break. You win 3 titles in 7 years and you are a dynasty in the NBA. Are you going to tell me that the Celtcis of the 80's weren't a dynasty as well? Now you're just arguing semnatics and looking pretty follish doing so.

 

[Evil Ash]

And if you noticed Ash - I said Sarver has work to do this off-season - hence, I think logic would apply that I haven't judged him as owner overall yet. I'm waiting to see if he learns from his mistakes. That's what good owners do.

Fair enough. However there are people here that want him hung out to dry because our GM didn't want to give guaranteed money to player that he didn't want and therefore wouldn't see playing time, which to me is beyond dumb

 

[Cheesebeef]

Fair enough. However there are people here that want him hung out to dry because our GM didn't want to give guaranteed money to player that he didn't want and therefore wouldn't see playing time, which to me is beyond dumb

You make it sound like the only reason people are complaining is last night. There's a lot of writing on the wall that can be interpreted as something other than as you see it Ash. It's widely reported in the media, and people CAN scratch their heads about numerous decisions that have been made over the last couple years. Just because you don't doesn't make everyone else stupid.

 

[Gaddabout]

Think about it this way - Manu got 5 years 52 million, yet only averaged 13 points per game, shot 40 percent and had worse averages in baords and assists, not to mention he was 4 years older than JJ AND was playing on a great team. Yet JJ averaged 16.7 points per game, was much younger and had developed into a VERY GOOD player in only his third year. To say he was inconsistent his first and second eyars, fine. But to say so in his 3rd year is strecthing the truth to fit your argument. Are we going to now do the same with Boris? Say he was inconsistent this year when he asks for similar typoe money and then when he blow sup this season, continue the merry go round of letting fresh young talent walk out the door?

You make a good argument for the mistake of not signing JJ the summer before his contract year. It was definitely a decision based on Nash's big deal and Sarver not wanting to look like a wasteful spender after preaching to his investors about being responsible. He thought he was being shrewd, but the shrewd move, in hindsight, was clearly to sign him for the $10 mil contract.

As a system, however, I think patience in determining a player's value (and sometimes allowing them to test the open market) is better than bidding against yourself, like D'Antoni said. If you make a mistake in the age of the cap, it can cost the team several years to fix it. If that means losing a good player or two in the process, it's still likely best for the long-term health of the *basketball team*, not just the owner's bank account. It also probably means not having a role player collecting star player salary.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You make a good argument for the mistake of not signing JJ the summer before his contract year. It was definitely a decision based on Nash's big deal and Sarver not wanting to look like a wasteful spender after preaching to his investors about being responsible. He thought he was being shrewd, but the shrewd move, in hindsight, was clearly to sign him for the $10 mil contract.

As a system, however, I think patience in determining a player's value (and sometimes allowing them to test the open market) is better than bidding against yourself, like D'Antoni said. If you make a mistake in the age of the cap, it can cost the team several years to fix it. If that means losing a good player or two in the process, it's still likely best for the long-term health of the *basketball team*, not just the owner's bank account. It also probably means not having a role player collecting star player salary.

I would just hate to see what happened with JJ happen with Boris as well. You can't let those guys get to the open market - it's why Detroit didn't let Pricne get there, it's why they didn't let Rip get there, it's why SA didn't let Manu get there - because once on the open market their value - like JJ's - and most likely like Boris - would SKYROCKET. You don't have to bid against yourself, but you need to find a happy medium to get those type of deals done. Any GM can hand out the full MLE or the MAX, the great GMs are the ones who get guys like Rip, Prince, and Manu to contracts that won't kill their teams. It's gonna be a BIG summer for us, I just hope we're up to the challenge.

 

[nowagimp]

IAny GM can hand out the full MLE or the MAX, the great GMs are the ones who get guys like Rip, Prince, and Manu to contracts that won't kill their teams. It's gonna be a BIG summer for us, I just hope we're up to the challenge.

Players make choices too, not just GM's. Rip, Prince and Manu are players who prioritize winning and were more proven than JJ 3(?) years ago. JJ wanted to be "the Man", he didnt want to play "second fiddle" to the MVP steve Nash. I would be stunned if RIP, Prince or Manu would make such a statement about their teammates during contract negotiations. Would any of those guys be happy in Atlanta? JJ is, which makes me wonder what his priorities were/are. Boris seems to be a winner, he's not worried about playing "second fiddle" to steve Nash: quote "steve nash is the best passer in the NBA". JJ's statements showed a lack of respect for his teammates, I expect youll never hear that from Boris, Manu, Prince or Rip. I have to wonder about any NBA player that does not want to play second fiddle to steve Nash because that means they will get the ball where they can do the most damage, get the best stats, AND win.

 

[Russ Smith]

Players make choices too, not just GM's. Rip, Prince and Manu are players who prioritize winning and were more proven than JJ 3(?) years ago. JJ wanted to be "the Man", he didnt want to play "second fiddle" to the MVP steve Nash. I would be stunned if RIP, Prince or Manu would make such a statement about their teammates during contract negotiations. Would any of those guys be happy in Atlanta? JJ is, which makes me wonder what his priorities were/are. Boris seems to be a winner, he's not worried about playing "second fiddle" to steve Nash: quote "steve nash is the best passer in the NBA". JJ's statements showed a lack of respect for his teammates, I expect youll never hear that from Boris, Manu, Prince or Rip. I have to wonder about any NBA player that does not want to play second fiddle to steve Nash because that means they will get the ball where they can do the most damage, get the best stats, AND win.

Absolutely agree. It's the same in college where every year the teams with the "best" recruiting classes are preseason top 5 picks and often at the end of the year the winning teams weren't close to top 5. Look at this last year, everyone said Florida lost too many stars the last 2 years and was too young. UCLA wasn't going to be able to replace Dijon Thompson, had too many injuries, and were too young. But at the end of the year there they were playing for the NCAA title while schools like UCONN(four first round picks) were watching at home.



Talent is certainly important but the problem is that not all talented players really care about winning many of them just want to make lots of money. To quote Woody "you'd rather look good and lose, than look bad and win." There are a lot of guys that fit that to a T in the NBA and teams that have those types of players don't win. Look at the Knicks they have talent but they have a bunch of guys who say they want to win but aren't really committed to it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Players make choices too, not just GM's. Rip, Prince and Manu are players who prioritize winning and were more proven than JJ 3(?) years ago. JJ wanted to be "the Man", he didnt want to play "second fiddle" to the MVP steve Nash.

JJ didn't say ANY OF THAT when he was up for a contract extension and was more proven than Manu and Prince at that point in his career than both of those guy when they were up for extensions. JJ wanted to be here during the off-season of 2004 and there's nothing that says otherwise.

As far as guys who don't want to play 2nd fiddle, what does that say about Shawn Marion?

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Until Foamy is running the show alone and without the old man, it will be hard to tell if he is going to be a good owner or a total dueche bag.

Also, I think the longley deal was the best the suns ever made, it has reaffirmed to them that stiff score first centers are not the way to build a team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Until Foamy is running the show alone and without the old man, it will be hard to tell if he is going to be a good owner or a total dueche bag.

Also, I think the longley deal was the best the suns ever made, it has reaffirmed to them that stiff score first centers are not the way to build a team.

okay - Foamy is a CLASSIC nickname. And I totally agree with everything else you said.

 

[sunsfn]

Until Foamy is running the show alone and without the old man, it will be hard to tell if he is going to be a good owner or a total dueche bag.

Also, I think the longley deal was the best the suns ever made, it has reaffirmed to them that stiff score first centers are not the way to build a team.

Agree with you, I do.

 

[Joe Mama]

JJ didn't say anything about being the main man (anything we know of any help) during his extension negotiations two summers ago. However there was a major difference between him and manu at that point. JJ had boosted his numbers significantly when he was the guy getting the most touches on a bad team. Manu was putting up almost the same numbers as a role player on a championship caliber team. he looked awesome in the playoffs.

I think Boris Diaw could make many of the same arguments that Manu. He was very good playoffs.

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

JJ didn't say anything about being the main man (anything we know of any help) during his extension negotiations two summers ago. However there was a major difference between him and manu at that point. JJ had boosted his numbers significantly when he was the guy getting the most touches on a bad team. Manu was putting up almost the same numbers as a role player on a championship caliber team. he looked awesome in the playoffs.

I think Boris Diaw could make many of the same arguments that Manu. He was very good playoffs.

Joe

Sorry Joe - there's a big difference between a guy scoring 13 points a game and a guy scoring 17 points a game (which actually took off to something ridiculous like 22 points per game, with 5 boards and 6 asst for the last 50 games of the season), especially considering, as you say, JJ had the ball in his hands and had to create for everyone, while Manu could hang back and play off a major superstar/good supporting cast. And didn't we finish the season pretty well that year once Amare, JJ and Marion came back? We were a bad team early on, but I remember EVERYONE on this board touting how much better we were the 2nd half of the year and that was because JJ (in particular) and Amare were just going off.

But I do agree with you about Boris and his play when you talk about Manu, but when you factor in that he's also 4 years younger than Manu, that'll factor into what he should be expecting come contract time. 5 years, 50 million dollars. Get it done.

 

[cly2tw]

JJ had half season of very good stats. But that was a no pressure situation on a lottery team. I recall that we all thought that it would have been a big risk to give him a big extension without him being pressure-tested first.

Manu and Prince played really big in championship runs two years in a roll before they got their big contracts. Only because they were not the 1st or 2nd options did they not have stats as eye catching as JJ's.

As of now, I'd still prefer both Manu and Prince at their contracts to JJ with his max.

 

[Nasser22]

Tim Thomas-stays...he better, that's why they traded the picks
Kurt Thomas-stays, the Suns actually had a good defense with him, it would be stupid to trade him for basically nothing
James Jones-I love the guy but traded to make room for Bobby Jackson possibly
Shawn Marion-After the draft no chance he will be gone this year and I'm tired of his name being brought up

Diaw-extension or Sarver will die
Barbosa-not sure here...i think maybe give him one more year to see what he's got but D'Antoni loves him so he may get an extension also.

 

[Cheesebeef]

As of now, I'd still prefer both Manu and Prince at their contracts to JJ with his max.

well, considering this has NOTHING to do with conversation, thanks for stating the obvious. The question whether any team would rather have JJ at 5 years for 50 and the answer is an emphatic YES.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm sorry if this wasn't clear from what I wrote, but here's what I was trying to say regarding the questions around JJ. JJ was not going to be the main man here in Phoenix. He was not going to be the second option here in Phoenix. Everyone knew that it was going to be Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire running the pick and roll.

The big question about JJ was whether he would go back into his incredibly inconsistent shell once he no longer have the ball in his hands most of the time. I think I say inconsistent rather generously also. Prior to Marbury moving and Amare Stoudemire's injury JJ would shoot poorly two or three games for every game in which he shot well.

Look, even Sarver has said repeatedly that he made a mistake in not signing JJ to that $50 million extension two summers ago (even though that mistake looks alright now). Still, $45 million was a completely fair for a given what JJ had shown at that point. It was a mistake not to go to $50 million, but I think it's completely understandable, especially after you figure Sarver and his investors had just dumped a boatload for the team and committed to about $100 million for Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson.

Joe Mama

 

[nowagimp]

JJ had half season of very good stats. But that was a no pressure situation on a lottery team. I recall that we all thought that it would have been a big risk to give him a big extension without him being pressure-tested first.

Manu and Prince played really big in championship runs two years in a roll before they got their big contracts. Only because they were not the 1st or 2nd options did they not have stats as eye catching as JJ's.

As of now, I'd still prefer both Manu and Prince at their contracts to JJ with his max.

Prince, Rip and Manu all move better without the ball than JJ ever did. In a ball movement offense like the suns, these guys would fit better. Manu is a better penetrator than JJ, has better(quicker) foot movement on defense, and prince is easliy a better defender. I'd take any of these guys over JJ for the DAntoni offense mainly because they all move better without the ball and all are at least as good at passing it as JJ. JJ had amare and Nash to divert defensive attention from him and had some good stats for 1 1/2 years. On this board was where I saw all the comments about "second fiddle" etc last summer, not the summer where sarver turned down the 50 mil contract. Maybe it all isnt true, but the guy did go to the worst francise in the NBA, so winning wasnt a dominant consideration in his negotiations. A desire to win is what encourages many players to be unselfish, JJ obvbiously didnt have a desire to win over his personal stats and $. Manu, Prince and Rip(and above all Boris) all play more unselfishly than JJ and seem to have that desire to win.

 

[sunsfn]

Prince, Rip and Manu all move better without the ball than JJ ever did. In a ball movement offense like the suns, these guys would fit better. Manu is a better penetrator than JJ, has better(quicker) foot movement on defense, and prince is easliy a better defender. I'd take any of these guys over JJ for the DAntoni offense mainly because they all move better without the ball and all are at least as good at passing it as JJ. JJ had amare and Nash to divert defensive attention from him and had some good stats for 1 1/2 years. On this board was where I saw all the comments about "second fiddle" etc last summer, not the summer where sarver turned down the 50 mil contract. Maybe it all isnt true, but the guy did go to the worst francise in the NBA, so winning wasnt a dominant consideration in his negotiations. A desire to win is what encourages many players to be unselfish, JJ obvbiously didnt have a desire to win over his personal stats and $. Manu, Prince and Rip(and above all Boris) all play more unselfishly than JJ and seem to have that desire to win.

I have been trying to not coment on all the JJ posts here but I have to on this one.

What games have you been watching?

The reason Rip runs all over the place in Detroit is because he has to, that is how they run their offense. If Rip played in Phx. he would not be doing that because D'Antoni wants/has shooters at all positions.

Prince is a better defender than most of the players in the NBA not just JJ. JJ is a better defender than Manu and Rip. I hope you saw the playoffs where JJ was switched to Mike Miller after Miller was shooting lights out in the first half, and Miller had 4 points in the 2nd half. Did you also see the games where JJ had Bowen from the Spurs on him and after coming back from 3 weeks off and had 18 screws placed in his eye socket was out of shape and making Bowen look bad!
Manu does not move any better than JJ and neither does Prince. JJ was so smooth and he played the perfect game for the suns. JJ is a better ball handler than those three. He was always open and could get his shot off against anyone, ANYONE in the NBA. He had a desire as strong as any player, he just did not shout it out so you obviously did not see it.

The whole problem with JJ started when Sarver not only would not give him 50 mil, he would not even discuss it further, just told him to have a good year and he would be a rich man. All of this you are reading and talking about in regards to JJ wanting to absolutely go to Atlanta and be the man, started when they were negotiating the 70 mil contract and is just baloney. It may have worked into that with all the converstions that the suns had with his agent trying to get the most for JJ. If the suns would have signed JJ the first time, none of this would have taken place and JJ would have been ecstatic to stay and be a sun. Sarver P.... him off by not wanting to negotiate and it got worse from there.

Sarver has every right to negotiate however he wants, but should have signed JJ the first year he had a chance to. They probably would have been somewhere between 45-50 mil when it was done. I agreed with the thought that 70 mil was to much, it just should not have reached that point. (and hopefully it will not with Diaw) When some fans think it is the players fault and all of a sudden the player is really not that good and there are much better players, does not want to be 2nd fiddle, others play unselfishly etc. it is all baloney.

JJ played 40 minutes a game for the suns, D'Antoni loved him because he could put him out there and he would score, bring the ball up as a backup point guard, always had assists, (because he shared the ball!!) and play his 40 minutes and really contribute to each game. He is 6' 8" tall and can play 4 postions and can guard 4 positions on the court, not many players can do that while scoring 20+ points a game.

JJ is gone and not coming back and I am getting over the not having him there to help this team, but some of you just can not let it go, any small chance you have you try to discredit him. Give it up and move on!

 

[nowagimp]

Wow where do I start?? First off, I am going to take my homer glasses off, JJ being a former sun and all.

1) JJ is a more physical defender than Manu, but I like manu's footspeed and help D better. Straight up, JJ couldnt guard Manu, he could(and did)go right around him. JJ's advantage against Manu on offense is not speed, its physical strength, he can bump him, physically disrupt him on defense back him off and shoot over him. The fact that JJ does real good against Mike Miller( a very slow player) is not all that impressive. JJ has good length, which makes up for footspeed some, but I think he's not a especially quick defender, but he is fundamentally sound defensively.

2) JJ does not move very well(in comparison to the other guys) without the ball, doesnt cut to the hoop for a pass as well, and does not finish at the rim as well as Manu, Rip, or Prince. JJ tends to drop into a one-on-one mode, body guys up and/or shoot over them. Thats where he is most comfortable, and he doesnt pass very well off the dribble penetration(his vision is just not that good), which may work in some offenses but not the suns offense. I cant recall JJ running the pick and roll successfully with Amare much at all. The suns need guys who dont need to dribble the ball so much to be comfortable, as thats Nashs job. JJ is real good(better than all but RIP and better range than RIP) at the catch and shoot, but thats not what he wants to do.

3) Rip has always run all over, at Uconn, at the wizards, he just moves well without the ball and finishes well as a cutter.

4) As a passer Joe averaged 3.5 asst/game in his last year with the suns and 2.5 asst/game career in the playoffs. He shot worse from 2(43%) than from 3 (47%) in his last (and best) year with the suns.

I have watched joe since he was a sun and respect what his talents are, its just that he wants to be something else. If he accepted his role as a catch and shoot player and defender, I take him over RIP for the suns, but I still think that both Manu and Prince would be better players in the suns system.

 

[George O'Brien]

From what I can tell, D'Antoni really did try to get the Suns to move better without the ball, but with Nash in there was a strong tendency to simply wait until someone left his man who could then take the shot.

If anything, I thought Boris did a great deal to encourage guys to move without the ball because he is so good at hitting guys cutting to the basket due to his heigth. Of course once they started moving, Nash was hitting them as cutters as well.