What happens in Flagstaff... My shot.

[82CardsGrad]

As many of you know, I'm from the NY area. Grew up going to NY Giants training camps. Also played football thru highschool. I always found a great deal of symetry between my own football experiences and what I would later witness at Giants camps. In short, the harsh, often brutal and in many cases unfair treatment from the coaches. Never was in the military however, I always imagined that my experiences and what I saw from the Giants camps were what it might be like at a boot camp. No tolerance for mistakes. No acceptance of anything less than 100% effort every second of every day spent in camp...
More importantly, what I always saw was that in these conditions, natural leaders would always surface. These were the guys who the other players and coaches tended to lean on more heavily when conditions warranted. When the mood of the day seemed a bit sluggish, these leaders would ALWAYS step in and get things back on track. They, as much as the coaches, never tolerated anything but maximum effort and flawless execution.

So, for the past 10 years or so, I've been heading to Flagstaff each summer to enjoy the weather and, oh yea - a NFL "training camp". I'll never forget the first time I went (2002), and the feeling of "hmmmmm.... this is different...". The marked lack of intensity. The lack of any real leader stepping up... the apparent acceptance of things being done less than 100%, less then perfect... And over the years, I found that I became conditioned to this brand of "training camp". No matter the coaches or the players (with one notable exception - named in just a bit...), the general tone was always the same and always, always fell short of my past experiences from the Giants camps.

The one exception was the short period when Kurt was here. He was that leader who rose above the rest and naturally assumed the role. He was always the one who was chirping, often screaming at other guys when they produced a sub-par effort or a less than perfect result. Sadly, I have not seen anyone before or after Kurt (including the coaches!), who possessed this type of leadership quality...

So, in the end perhaps it's not so surprising to see this team fall back into the basement from which it has always inhabited.
They say a fish rots at the head... I am fairly convinced that Coach Whiz and his staff are the root of the myriad problems. Good intentions for sure... but, totally inept when it comes to ability, execution and leadership. I have seen this each summer up in Flagstaff. What is birthed there is what manifests during the season. What we see today is allowed to develop and exist right from the start of camp.

Fitz, Dockett, Wilson, Sendlein... Great talents but they simply don't possess that seemingly rare ability to effectively inspire and lead. And players like Porter, Haggans, Rhodes and Lenon most certainly are totally void on this matter.

This team is once again a collection of misfits - talented in some cases, but still fractured, disjointed and dysfunctional. Same for the coaches....

 

[PaulW]

Perfectly stated. Thank You. I wuld hope that M. Bidwill would read this and take the leadership role and make the necssary changes and make them now to send a message to the players.

 

[red desert]

Perfectly stated indeed.

 

[az240zz]

Perfectly stated. Thank You. I wuld hope that M. Bidwill would read this and take the leadership role and make the necssary changes and make them now to send a message to the players.

I'm curious as to what those changes should be??? If for example you say fire Graves, then who should be hired to replace him........

 

[Shane]

As you all know I have spent more than an ample amount of time at TC especially during the KW years.

Sorry 82 but Kurt was a great lead by example player. Would always work hard and give his all etc... But I never saw any of these so called barking at other player outbursts that you claim. It sticks out and is evident when it's done up there too.

Most notable people that I vividly recall getting on other players loudly and without hesitation were Todd Haley(whom I despise btw and was often barking at Kurt himself). Bertrand Berry, DD, Q, a STs coach whose name I don't recall and Jerry Sullivan.

Kurt never stuck out that way and I personally feel your exaggerating to prove a point here.

Kurt definitely showed it on Sunday's at times. But at camp? Not so much.

I do agree about others though like Fitz and Wilson etc..none of that in your face leadership they should have.

 

[SeattleCard]

I like Todd Haley simply because he wasn't afraid of anyone...

 

[82CardsGrad]

As you all know I have spent more than an ample amount of time at TC especially during the KW years.

Sorry 82 but Kurt was a great lead by example player. Would always work hard and give his all etc... But I never saw any of these so called barking at other players that you claim. It sticks out and is evident when it's done up there too.

Most notable people that I vividly recall getting on other players loudly and without hesitation were Todd Haley(whom I despise btw and was often barking at Kurt himself). Bertrand Berry, DD, Q, a STs coach whose name I don't recall and Jerry Sullivan.

Kurt never stuck out that way and I personally feel your exaggerating to prove a point here.

Kurt definitely showed it on Sunday's at times. But at camp? Not so much.

Totally disagree Shane. I can recall 2 specific cases with Kurt. One in 2008 I believe, when Leonard Pope jumped off-sides 2 plays in a row. Kurt pulled him aside and chewed him out in front of everyone!
Then, in 2009... Doucet kept running an improper route. It looked to me like Kurt wanted him to run a tighter, straighter crossing pattern and Doucet kept running a deeper, softer pattern. After the 3rd or 4th time he did it, Kurt literally tossed the football at his feet and grabbed him. I distinctly remember Kurt making very animated hand gestures showing Doucet what he meant.

As for the others you mention, the only one of them I have ever seen get in the face of a fellow player is Dockett. However, IMHO, he doesn't carry the leadership cred that Warner had... empty words from Dockett unfortunately.
More importantly...to the point of this thread - what we see being played out on the field right now stems from what happens in Flagstaff. Are you actually denying that? If so, I would strongly encourage you - someone who has spent "more than ample time" at TC - to take a trip back east and check in on a Giants camp. I promise you that, along with being able to enjoy the greatest city in the world, you would also quickly notice a huge difference versus what you have seen in Flagstaff....

 

[Shane]

Well when was the last time you were at a giants TC? I know coughlin is largely considered one of the stricter coaches in all of football. Yet it has been nationally noted that he has softened quit a bit. In fact I recall stories about cream puff camps with many teams. I actually remember McGinnis holding much more physical camps than we see today. I miss those days. But it didn't change the record any so I'm not so sure there is any so called "proper way" or better way. Tony Dungy and Mr. Chin himself Cowher were not known to run the most physical in your face camps.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Well when was the last time you were at a giants TC? I know coughlin is largely considered one of the stricter coaches in all of football. Yet it has been nationally noted that he has softened quit a bit. In fact I recall stories about cream puff camps with many teams. I actually remember McGinnis holding much more physical camps than we see today. I miss those days. But it didn't change the record any so I'm not so sure there is any so called "proper way" or better way. Tony Dungy and Mr. Chin himself Cowher were not known to run the most physical in your face camps.

I haven't been to a Giants camp since 1997 and the Fassell years - which were pretty damn tough! Much tougher than anything I've seen in Flag.
And yes, there is no singular "right way". However, I am convinced that the tougher way, combined with having a natural leader or two on the team (like Warner and something we are totally missing on this team), limits the downside. In those instances, you don't go 3 & 13 over a 16 game stretch. You don't lose 9 in a row on the road.
What we have is an extremely soft team with no leadership among them, with extremely soft coaches, with poor/old talent sprinkled about... And, surprise surprise, look at the product it produces...

 

[Shane]

I haven't been to a Giants camp since 1997 and the Fassell years - which were pretty damn tough! Much tougher than anything I've seen in Flag.
And yes, there is no singular "right way". However, I am convinced that the tougher way, combined with having a natural leader or two on the team (like Warner and something we are totally missing on this team), limits the downside. In those instances, you don't go 3 & 13 over a 16 game stretch. You don't lose 9 in a row on the road.
What we have is an extremely soft team with no leadership among them, with extremely soft coaches, with poor/old talent sprinkled about... And, surprise surprise, look at the product it produces...

That last game was junk of the highest order. But even with all our supposed issues we lost the 3 previous games by a total of 8 points. The Giant loss was gut wrenching in the way it shook out. I agree with the you are what your record says you are theory. But we are not as bad as many here think. And your right maybe some leadership turns those 3 losses into wins.

 

[82CardsGrad]

That last game was junk of the highest order. But even with all our supposed issues we lost the 3 previous games by a total of 8 points. The Giant loss was gut wrenching in the way it shook out. I agree with the you are what your record says you are theory. But we are not as bad as many here think. And your right maybe some leadership turns those 3 losses into wins.

All I know is that the good teams don't seem to spend much time counting up the point differences in their losses, yet, the crappy teams do. The good teams don't seem to spend much time attempting to make a case that "we are not as bad" as people think, yet, the crappy teams do.

You can explain away a loss or two here and there... however, 3 & 13 and 10 (it's actually 10 - I was corrected...) straight road losses is what it is Shane. And what it is is most definitely not "not that bad"...

 

[Shane]

All I know is that the good teams don't seem to spend much time counting up the point differences in their losses, yet, the crappy teams do. The good teams don't seem to spend much time attempting to make a case that "we are not as bad" as people think, yet, the crappy teams do.

You can explain away a loss or two here and there... however, 3 & 13 and 10 (it's actually 10 - I was corrected...) straight road losses is what it is Shane. And what it is is most definitely not "not that bad"...

Never said we were good. Just notas bad as many here think.

We have had several devastating injuries to boot. Nobody gonna feel sorry for ya but it's just a fact.

 

[Catfish]

82 Grad, What you have described makes perfect sense. Having never been to any other training camp, I have none to compare it to, but your post seems to put this into very clear perspective. I had never thought about this before, but this truly would be the place where the mediocrity was planted and where it sprouted into fruition. I do recall Warner being a take charge guy on the field at Flagstaff. I haven't been to a TC for the past three years due to health issues, so I can't attest to anything that has happened there of late, but this is something I had never considered before. You may have really pinned the tail on this donkey !!!!! Thanks for your insight.

 

[conraddobler]

This teams problem is that it let's the money players, the big money players run the team by never doing anything to them.

They aren't leaders enough, not saying all of them but enough of them and with the way we approach signing players there are a ton of players who know they're miles ahead of the next guy and know we're not going to touch them.

Once this gets good and entrenched in enough players minds the coach is done, nothing they can do.

It's the inital fear of the coach that holds them back for a while and winning helps too but once the adversity starts they mail it in IMO.

 

[Duckjake]

I'm curious as to what those changes should be??? If for example you say fire Graves, then who should be hired to replace him........

Move training camp to Yuma.

 

[100%CardsFan]

I dont care if he has experience or not. I would rather have Warner as our HC right now then Whiz.

 

[Mulli]

All I know is that the good teams don't seem to spend much time counting up the point differences in their losses, yet, the crappy teams do. The good teams don't seem to spend much time attempting to make a case that "we are not as bad" as people think, yet, the crappy teams do.

You can explain away a loss or two here and there... however, 3 & 13 and 10 (it's actually 10 - I was corrected...) straight road losses is what it is Shane. And what it is is most definitely not "not that bad"...

So you are saying that good teams win? Brilliant!

 

[conraddobler]

Your record is your record.

The breaks even out over time, except for the refs, but that's another matter entirely.

We are who we thought we are and we let us off the hook?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Never said we were good. Just notas bad as many here think.

We have had several devastating injuries to boot. Nobody gonna feel sorry for ya but it's just a fact.

give me a damn break on the "devastating injuries"... the Packers were decimated by injuries last year and won the Super Bowl... the Niners have been without their entire WR corp a good part of the year. Hell, the Packers just played on the road without BOTH of their starting OTs and had no problem. every team has injuries... our injuries were to players who had never proven a damn... or had proven they were over the hill the last couple years (AW).

and what are we really missing? a CB who wasn't very good last year? A RB who had showed a lot of promise against one of the worst defenses in the league in training camp?

The entire predicted starting offense is healthy, the entire predicted defense save a below average CB from last year is healthy enough or healthy enough to play.

 

[perivolaki]

Most notable people that I vividly recall getting on other players loudly and without hesitation were Todd Haley(whom I despise btw and was often barking at Kurt himself). Bertrand Berry, DD, Q, a STs coach whose name I don't recall and Jerry Sullivan.

I kind of agree with you.

I never saw Kurt being that type of guy.

The guy I remember yelling the most in all my times going to Flagg was Denny Green.

He yelled and worked on Darnell Dockett like he was a re-headed step child. He never let up.

 

[Mulli]

give me a damn break on the "devastating injuries"... the Packers were decimated by injuries last year and won the Super Bowl... the Niners have been without their entire WR corp a good part of the year. Hell, the Packers just played on the road without BOTH of their starting OTs and had no problem. every team has injuries... our injuries were to players who had never proven a damn... or had proven they were over the hill the last couple years (AW).

and what are we really missing? a CB who wasn't very good last year? A RB who had showed a lot of promise against one of the worst defenses in the league in training camp?

The entire predicted starting offense is healthy, the entire predicted defense save a below average CB from last year is healthy enough or healthy enough to play.

. One break, coming up!!! David Lee Roth

 

[82CardsGrad]

So you are saying that good teams win? Brilliant!

I do have a way with words don't I??

 

[Jetstream Green]

Unless you have pads on and are actually on the field, one has no idea who carries the real leadership. Shouting is not always the best indication. Lenon was awarded being a captain by his teammates and I doubt that was out of 'he is just a nice guy' though he lacks ability. Some players like Ray Lewis just have to look at someone funny to get there point across. Roger Staubach was a strong leader and seldom ever raised his voice towards players. I think it is hard to lead when the coaches are not really giving the vets a clear message they can lead with or something they can promote to the other players when the plays keep failing.

Horton is off in "we are the Steelers with great LBs" fantasy world while players like Dockett and Wilson are leaving in reality on the field having little to say when the plays being run hardly play to the strengths of the players we have. I watch the OL and players like Brown seem to know he is in over his head. I say the guy cares but has lost total confidence in his ability to do his job at OT and his facial expressions and gestures are like a guy who is of no use and wishes it could be otherwise. By the play on the field, I say our OL has no leader and the closest being maybe Bridges if given a chance (the heart of a OL is a mean nasty one and he is the only thing mean on the OL. Reggie Wells for all his personal fouls did carry a mean streak that also helped).