What has to change?

[JCSunsfan]

What is wrong with the Suns. Something is. I have stepped backed and looked at the big picture, trying not to focus on individual players etc. Here is what I have come up with.

1. The draft has been excellent by anyone's standards. Most teams do not draft as many core players. Len, Archie, TJ, and Booker are all rotation if not core players. McD has only drafted 5 first rounders. His only miss was Ennis.

2. Trades have been a mixture of good and bad. The Bledsoe and Goran trades were very good. The IT trade was meh. The Knight trade is still unknown depending on what happens to that Laker pick.

3. Free agency has been a disaster--mostly because of the misses and the consequences of those. But the weirdnesses of the Morri contract and trades is also a factor.

4. Injuries have played a big part in the present record. But this is how you tank. You let key players take extended time and heal. Develop the young players and not worry so much about w-l.

5. The big problem seems to be coaching and organizational atmosphere. We have not been able to create a system and environment that keeps players happy and productive. There just seems to be an atmospher of suspicion, distrust, and selfishness. Horny may have been part of the problem, but it also seems to be the temperament of the players assembled, and the way the organization is run internally. It is interesting that the mood you create within your organization is as important as the actual moves you make.

6. The system seems to be a problem. The two lead guard system doesnt seem to make either lead guard happy. They are usually both prima donnas that want the ball in their hands. The result of that is that the ball rarely finds its way to the bigs, and then they become disconnected offensively. That usually spills over into defense. I believe the two lead guard system could work, but those guards have to be pass first guards. It will not work with score first pgs-especially not two of them.

So, who is at fault for this? Certainly Robert Sarver. The guy at the top is responsible for the organizational atmosphere. In fact, that is is primary responsibility.

McD, and this is the first time I am saying this, is also to blame. He seems to be very good at picking out talent and winning trades. He seems to have a weakness in knowing what combination of players will make a good team. But isn't this something you would expect from a person who has never been a player or coach? You cannot assemble a real basketball team like its a fantasy team.

It may be also that this is just the unhappiness that occurs during the rebuilding process. You have to make changes and keep churning until you get it right.

 

[Catlover]

Did you really just start another thread asking everyone to come in here and rip on Sarver and McDonough?

 

[devilalum]

Did you really just start another thread asking everyone to come in here and rip on Sarver and McDonough?

I've seen this before. When things get bad the discussion gets messy. I want to go back and respond to an idea and end up wasting time discovering that it was in a game thread from last week.

sent from a fone

 

[JCSunsfan]

Did you really just start another thread asking everyone to come in here and rip on Sarver and McDonough?

No. That was not my intention. I am not trying to rip on them. I am trying to be as level headed as objective as possible. We are not going to change the ownership. But Sarver is going to have to change his management style I think. Probably the best solution is just to step away from day to day operations.

More importantly, something has to change at GM. I really like McD. I like his ability to evaluated talent and draft. I do not want to lose that. To me, the change that has to occur is a shift in responsibilities. McD needs to be a VP in charge of scouting and have the primary voice in the draft. Drafting cannot be about team needs. You have to be able to pick the best prospect, period. McD is very good at that.

They need someone else that is in charge of team construction. This person needs to have a playing and coaching background. They need to see offense and defense, strengths and weaknesses. This person needs to have the primary voice in trades and free agent signings.

Roster decisions need to be made by a group. It would include McD, the GM, and the Coach. McD gets to lead the draft, the GM leads trades and free agency, and the coach gets significant input on both.

Another way to do it would be to give the next coach more say in personnel decisions. Let McD do the actual signing, trading etc.

I would like to have a constructive discussion on ideas for change. Please, this thread is not the place for all the "Sarver is an idiot" comments.

 

[CardsFan88]

Ultimately people have to realize that building a winner isn't easy. Some teams try for decades and can't do it.... even ones with pretty good ownership and competence. It's not easy.

That's why I was so mad when $arver tore everything down. He's a banker, so he's used to making money from nothing..i.e, doing nothing productive, but making money off of other people's productive works...which now in banking doesn't even happen.... it's making money off pushing worthless paper. It doesn't work that way in the NBA. You don't conjure up out of thin air victories or a winning franchise, like money for loans. $arver came into the league thinking all this was easy. What a fool.

He destroyed one of the best franchises in sports, and there's a really good shot, that even if he owns them for the next 50 years, they'll never sniff that level of competitiveness, mindshare, respect and overall quality that he had when he bought the team.

We were the most talented team in the league, with a great track record with free agents who wanted to come here, and the most draft picks stockpiled in the entire league. We were highly respected and seen as a model franchise. One others wished to emulate.

$arver came in, destroyed all that, and wasted it all to save money... except he lost money by doing so. Now we are seen (and have been for some time) as a laughingstock team. That's because $arver when it comes to owning a team came in as a complete and utter moron.

We may never build this franchise back up, because it can take decades. Sure if you draft a Lew Alcindor, a Lebron James, etc... you can turn things around quickly... but that only happens to a single team, every decade or two. So in the history of the NBA, that STILL hasn't happened to many teams. Get lucky and hit the lottery. We had a shot, but the coin flip was tails not heads.

Otherwise you have to do it the hard way, and the hard way can take decades. Can it happen in 5-10 years with all the right moves? Sure, but where is the competency for that? Even teams that get #1 picks over and over again can botch it and suck.

Meanwhile the respect of fans, the league, and players is gone until we build it back up. Chicken meet egg.

$arver screwed us so bad, I don't think people have fully realized it yet. They keep thinking the light is at the end of the tunnel. Maybe it is. Likely it isn't.

Our team looks like it's flailing. It starts from ownership. Ownership is not doing the right things. Now he's willing to spend (supposedly), but he's already destroyed everything. In it's wake is inferior in every respect, except maybe one... our famed trainers.

He's run off Kerr, JC, and scapegoated a bunch of coaches who weren't to blame for his mistakes. Newsflash, when you trade away players to save money, then waste assets to partially recoup, and then year after year repeat that process, it's not the coaches fault. You are raising the standards every year while giving them less and less to work with. Now that we're at the bottom, nothing seems to work.

He's hired cronies, and now as pitiful as we are, McD while maybe not good, is the best thing inside this organization. Maybe we should keep him, even if he sucks from time to time. What else do we have?

Who is going to come in here and be better then McD? Or will he fire him and hire the next Blanks?

Even Bickley in an article questioned if McD is really even pulling the strings on some of the stuff he's getting hated on for. Is it really $arver getting involved and getting it wrong?

Ultimately though, it is all $arver's fault. From tearing us down, to being completely clueless on how to build us back up. If he fires McD, we'll have entered Cleveland Browns territory.

Notice the Browns have had talent, good coaches, etc, over the years but their ownership picks wrong. They are impatient with the good ones. At times they are too patient with the bad ones. Or even worse they are so impatient they don't give anyone more then a year or two and destroy all continuity. That's what I see. We're approaching that.

As bad as the Cardinals were with BB, they tended to give their coaches and GM's a long enough shot to succeed. $arver led Suns might be heading to being worse then that, just like the Browns currently are.

$arver is now so blinded by wanting to win, he cannot make the right choice. He panics, and will get rid of potentially good people in order 'to win', and the instability and lawlessness he's created is antithetical to building a winner. He needs someone who either is a Jerry Colangelo right now, or he needs to hire someone with the work ethic that can grow into such a position over time. McD is young enough to perhaps do that. Unless you have someone clearly better, like a Jerry Colangelo, you keep him.

JC wasn't going for short term fixes, he was learning the business from a long term perspective. Sure he wanted to be good quickly, as he needed to sell seats, but he wanted to learn what it took to run a good organization, and he did. He wanted to be seen as a top notch, class organization. If he saw something that didn't work, he had the competency to recognize it, and the ability to get rid of those people. He ran a class organization.

The current ownership sets the standards and if they aren't competent, the team won't be good.

Everything lays at the foot of $arver. He's destroyed our beloved team, and is too clueless and impatient to build it back up. He either needs to commit himself like JC into figuring it out, and pray some good fortune comes his way... or sell the team.

The sad thing is, JC is still out there.... but he's helping the 76ers. Kerr and Nash have gigs with the Warriors. The Warriors run a similar system to what we always did, and are winning championships.... and now that JC is involved with the 76ers, I think he turns them around long before us.

Again we can wish for a Lew Alcindor, Tim Duncan, Lebron James falls in our laps, or we can recognize the situation. $arver needs to become more competent at owning a basketball franchise or sell it.

Doing what he's desired has destroyed this team. It's been done on his direction. Perhaps he should look within and find a new direction since it's his direction and decisions everyone under him makes happen. The result of that direction has taken us here.

I don't know if that's what you want, but you can't unlink it. $arver caused this, and only $arver can fix it.

 

[Mainstreet]

JCSunsfan, I think the system left with the firing of Jeff Hornacek. The insistence of a two PG offense stagnated the Suns. The Suns didn't have the right players to run it. McDonough tried to get another PG (Knight) to run it for Hornacek after Dragic left but it was a failure. The IT trade was already cast before Dragic demanded a trade. There went the two PG system. Hornacek couldn't adapt to a traditional PG/SG system. I think McDonough was loyal to Hornacek to a fault. Hornacek lost the players along the way.

I like McDonough as the Suns GM but (IMO) he is not warm enough in conveying his message to the public and players. Maybe he will learn with time. However, the Suns need someone to help better communicate with players and the public to help their image. Minimally, the Suns should have someone to control the flow of information the right way... in a way that does not appear so cold. Getting the information to the players before the public should be doable most of the time.

 

[Catlover]

JCSunsfan, I think the system left with the firing of Jeff Hornacek. The insistence of a two PG offense stagnated the Suns. The Suns didn't have the right players to run it. McDonough tried to get another PG (Knight) to run it for Hornacek after Dragic left but it was a failure. The IT trade was already cast before Dragic demanded a trade. There went the two PG system. Hornacek couldn't adapt to a traditional PG/SG system. I think McDonough was loyal to Hornacek to a fault. Hornacek lost the players along the way.

I like McDonough as the Suns GM but (IMO) he is not warm enough in conveying his message to the public and players. Maybe he will learn with time. However, the Suns need someone to help better communicate with players and the public to help their image. Minimally, the Suns should have someone to control the flow of information the right way... in a way that does not appear so cold. Getting the information to the players before the public should be doable most of the time.

I'm not sure of everything here but I highlighted the parts I most strongly agree with.

 

[elindholm]

I don't agree at all that Len and Goodwin look like "rotation if not core players." Goodwin wouldn't be getting anything beyond garbage minutes with any other team -- heck, even all of his time with the Suns is garbage time, because that's all they play. As for Len, it's still too soon to give up on him, but the list of big men who have shown occasional flashes but never been able to put it together is very long, and all signs point to Len joining that group.

Nonetheless, I agree that McDonough has done well in the draft. Goodwin was at the end of the first round, so he did what you are supposed to do there: take a flyer on a talented long shot. As for Len, that's not a big miss either, considering the weakness of that draft class. So Len and Goodwin weren't bad picks, really, but calling them future rotation players in this league requires extremely optimistic projections.

 

[Errntknght]

Drafting Ennis wasn't a miss, trading him was the miss - I'd be tickled to have him instead of Knight on this team, and that's not hindsight, nor is it a way of saying I want the LA pick back. Acquiring Knight was the main cause of the mess we're in and it was such an obvious blunder, since we'd already proved two combo guards didn't work in JH's offense. By now Ennis would be our starting PG and Hornacek would still be coaching... oh dang, there is a fly in the ointment after all. I guess Knight was the price of getting rid of Hornacek relatively quickly.

This little quibble isn't in the constructive frame you intended, JC - but don't worry it won't hijack the thread... Ennis is just a wisp of a memory here - he's only remembered as McD drafting mistake.

Its just having all these guards and not one of them can play the point, it gets to me.

I like your idea of McD as a VP of scouting and not being the molder of our style of play - he needs to step back from that as that is what leads to his bad decisions. (Like picking up Tolliver in an attempt to get the stretch 4 Jeff wanted and the knee jerk reaction of grabbing Knight to prolong the dual lead guard plan. We could have picked up Ed Davis for a song and we'd have a PF that could defend and rebound - in case those two qualities were ever needed. Stranger things have happened...)

I'm not a believer in group decisions - that's the way to stay mediocre. What you want is a visionary coach, but we've had two of them, D'Antoni and Hornacek, both of whose visions were flawed. I think it wasn't the visions that were flawed but the execution. D'Antoni could never get away from his roots in EuroLeague basketball - Euroleague is a sprint and the NBA is an endurance race. If he hadn't stumbled on Nash when he did, his career would have been brief and long forgotten. I'm not so sure what went wrong with Horny - its like he forgot that every aspect of the game is important. I think his quick success let him think he could get away with shortcuts but its also true that his leadership was too weak. Probably, doomed on two fronts.

I kind of like Larry Bird's approach to coaching - a head coach that has the overall vision and runs the floor game but two strong technicians running the offense and defense. Yeah, three good coaches and two of them toiling in relative obscurity - may not be possible these days.

Positive signs to look for: EW standing up to McD and Sarver, demanding assistant coaches of his own choosing.

 

[Mainstreet]

Although Tyler Ennis is still young he is not exactly tearing it up in the NBA. He reminds me a lot of Kendall Marshall. If the price were the same I would prefer Knight many times over.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ennisty01.html

 

[JCSunsfan]

Drafting Ennis wasn't a miss, trading him was the miss - I'd be tickled to have him instead of Knight on this team, and that's not hindsight, nor is it a way of saying I want the LA pick back. Acquiring Knight was the main cause of the mess we're in and it was such an obvious blunder, since we'd already proved two combo guards didn't work in JH's offense. By now Ennis would be our starting PG and Hornacek would still be coaching... oh dang, there is a fly in the ointment after all. I guess Knight was the price of getting rid of Hornacek relatively quickly.

This little quibble isn't in the constructive frame you intended, JC - but don't worry it won't hijack the thread... Ennis is just a wisp of a memory here - he's only remembered as McD drafting mistake.

.

Absolutely not. This type of give and take is helpful and enjoyable.

 

[JCSunsfan]

So, is McD a great scout but miscast as a GM?

We could complain about Sarver for years, but it isn't going to change anything. He is what he is.

 

[BC867]

And who could we reasonably expect to change to make it happen?

Or . . .

Is there anyone even associated with the Suns who could make that happen?

Man, hoping for the Suns to stop spiting themselves is as bad as hoping for the 2 major political parties to do the same?

Right now, I don't have very much hope for either scenario.

 

[StreetTruckinTitan]

Drafting

Positive signs to look for: EW standing up to McD and Sarver, demanding assistant coaches of his own choosing.

EW is going to be the interim coach for the next 28 games. He will not be hired as the next HC and McD will also not be back as GM. Saver is going to clean house. He is obviously not happy with the laughing stock his organization has become under McD. Big changes are a coming Folks!

 

[Mainstreet]

So, is McD a great scout but miscast as a GM?

We could complain about Sarver for years, but it isn't going to change anything. He is what he is.

Great point about McDonough. I think he is cast correctly as a GM but his first love is scouting. Being a GM let's him make player personnel choices which many a fan would envy.

 

[Catlover]

So, is McD a great scout but miscast as a GM?

We could complain about Sarver for years, but it isn't going to change anything. He is what he is.

No, I don't think so. I believe we're judging things at a moment in time, and a very bad moment at that. We have Bogdan stashed away, we have 3 extra first rounders of varying value and we have our 2 best players not on the court. We have a quality power forward who refused to play ball for us but should still have trade value. We also have a young big man that's playing but clearly limited by an injured hand. And to all that we should be adding a top 5 talent in this draft.

We were almost as inept on the court when Ryan was hired and that was with a fully healthy team and no stockpiled assets. Regardless, as bad as things are right now, they won't be that way for long. We might not waltz into the playoffs next season but we won't be an embarrassment every time we take the court. And with a little bit of luck, we'll get to watch Booker and another star or two in the making turn into something special.

 

[sunsfan88]

I'm interested to see whose idea this two PG system was. Was it Hornacek or McD that had this obsession with collecting combo guards? I guess we will see now that Hornacek is gone.

 

[BC867]

...we have our 2 best players not on the court.

Our 2 best players share the same position and are among the worst in the league in turnovers.

Their best value to the Suns would be in separate trades.

We're still looking for our 2 best players for next season. It would be great if one of them is on the roster now, developing for the future.

 

[FArting]

A coach with passion

Our goal is to win the NBA Championship

Beat our rivals

sell out TSRA

 

[asudevil83]

I think at the core our problem is simple. Sarver/McD have consistently said that our players are "assets."

This does two things.
a.) If players are "assets", then the mentality becomes "hell, i'm just here the for the paycheck until i get traded." The idea becomes: winning doesnt matter because i dont matter to them.
b.) It creates resentment. Again, if players are "assets" then they are not respected by the GM/Owner. If they arent respected, they sure as hell are not going to show any respect.

This, is why we've had many disgruntled players come and go. Dragic/Thomas/Marcus....all felt disrespected by the owner/gm and left under less than ideal circumstances. And all were packed for once again "more assets." They didnt feel valued and in return they were traded for something that McD/Sarver felt was more valuable then them.

I think part of Horney's problem was that he was supposed to be that buffer between players/management, creating an atmosphere of family among the players....which he didnt. I also think that he played the favorite's game too much, instilling this idea that if "I, MYSELF dont do well, them I am out of here."

From what i've gathered, Watson will succeed in being that buffer between players/management. In his short time as HC, i think we've already seen the player's sense of their value to the team, not their value to the "organization".....two completely different things.

--------------------

As far as this roster goes. I still think we are not as terrible as we seem to be. But, like many here, i'm done with (and never liked) the idea of a 2pg system. In theory it works under ideal circumstances (a PG PG, and a PG in a SG body). we dont have that. Bledsoe cannot guard SGs, and we saw his defense suffer.....and well Knight cannot guard at all. Looking back out our box-scores, you can clearly see a trend of the oppositions back-court putting up numbers they had no business putting up. It's sad, and we will not be successful if we continue it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Ok. So I can see the problem with referring to players as assets. It's like treating players as a card collection or as a fantasy roster. At some point you have to build a team. That falls heavily on the coach but the personnel had to be right too. They had that two years ago. But now it looks more like that roster was accidental more than deliberate. The Channing f Frye role was huge and we never replaced it. We also miss Gerald Green who was the deciding factor in a lot of games that year. McD did a lot of tinkering.

It is so hard to go from good to great that many end up going from good to poor as a result.