What is a tweener?

[BC867]

The Suns are a team of tweeners. But what is a tweener?

Is he a versatile player who excels at whatever position he is playing?

Or is he a jack of all trades but master of none?

Eric Bledsoe -- neither a pure Point Guard nor a pure Shooter, but our best defender in the backcourt.

Goran Dragic -- neither a pure Point Guard nor a pure Shooter. But a pass-first Guard with decent height.

Isaiah Thomas -- a scorer in the body of a small Point Guard.

Gerald Green -- an instant offense Wing who will not give up the ball once he gets it.

Markieff Morris -- self-described as too light to play Power Forward, then finds himself at Center.

Marcus Morris -- a Small Forward who finds himself at Power Forward.

PJ Tucker -- too short to be a Power Forward, but too heavy to be a Small Forward, but our best defender in the front court.

Brandan Wright -- a tall but light backup at Center and Power Forward.

Miles Plumlee -- plays light as a Center, but without the skills of a Power Forward.

The only player in the rotation who fits his position is Alex Len at Center.

The rest are nine players who are tweeners.

Are they versatile players who are better than their matchup at whatever position they are playing?

Or are they jacks of all trades but masters of none?

Versatility or mediocrity when it comes to reaching and preparing for the playoffs.

Crunch time is coming. What do you think?

 

[Errntknght]

'Tweener' has connotations of not being terribly good at either position. A guy that is a solid NBA starter at one position but can slide down or up or both and do creditable job is called versatile.

 

[sunsfan88]

Tucker and Marcus Morris are good examples.

 

[Phrazbit]

Both Morrii are plenty big enough to play PF, and Marcus plays more of his minutes at SF anyway.

Dragic is not and never has been a pass first PG.

Green absolutely a ball hog, but he is not a tweener.

Plumlee is certainly lacking for talent of late, but he also is not a tweener. The guy is big and strong enough to play at center.

 

[JCSunsfan]

A tweener is not a player who can play more than one position. Magic Johnson and LeBron James are not tweeners. Its also not a player who creates positional matchup problems. Tom Chambers had the size of a PF but could play like a SF (Dirk also fits this category).

A tweener is a player whose limitations keep him from playing any position well and does not have any other special skill to make him useful enough as a specialist (you can always use shooters or lockdown defenders).

I do not think we have ANY tweeners on this team. Some players are just not as good at others at their position, but their position is pretty clear.

 

[slinslin]

Tweener does not have to be negative. Lebron James and Magic Johnson certainly were/are tweeners.

Marcus Morris is a tweener, TJ Warren possibly too.

Tim Duncan could be labeled a tweener.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Tweener does not have to be negative. Lebron James and Magic Johnson certainly were/are tweeners.

Marcus Morris is a tweener, TJ Warren possibly too.

Tim Duncan could be labeled a tweener.

I've never heard tweener used the way you're using it. And I've never come across anyone until now that would even think of calling Magic or Duncan a tweener. Tweener is someone stuck between two positions - usually it's a player that has the skill set of one position but the physical traits of another. In the NBA it's used almost solely for a power forward built like a small forward or a center that should be playing a forward position. It's almost always used as a negative. Someone like Lebron that can excel at either position is far from being a tweener.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

I've never heard tweener used the way you're using it. And I've never come across anyone until now that would even think of calling Magic or Duncan a tweener. Tweener is someone stuck between two positions - usually it's a player that has the skill set of one position but the physical traits of another. In the NBA it's used almost solely for a power forward built like a small forward or a center that should be playing a forward position. It's almost always used as a negative. Someone like Lebron that can excel at either position is far from being a tweener.

Steve

Antawn Jamison was called a tweener, hardly negative.

Many people use the word simply whenever they can't identify the best position for one player to play but in the end how is being a tweener a bad thing exactly?

Would Marcus Morris be a better player if people though he is clearly just a small forward? No.

Tim Duncan throughout his career has played PF and C, so how is he not a tweener?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Antawn Jamison was called a tweener, hardly negative.

Many people use the word simply whenever they can't identify the best position for one player to play but in the end how is being a tweener a bad thing exactly?

Would Marcus Morris be a better player if people though he is clearly just a small forward? No.

Tim Duncan throughout his career has played PF and C, so how is he not a tweener?

Because "tweener" for most of us also means not ideally suited for either position. It doesn't mean he has to suck at both positions but it does mean that he has to lack something (height, length, weight, speed etc) for at least one of the positions he's playing. Sometimes the word is used as a real insult and sometimes it's just marginally derogatory. Duncan excels at either position and he had the physical qualities and skill set to succeed at both so he is in no way a tweener. Marcus is a little harder to define. I wouldn't argue strongly against someone calling him a tweener.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I think tweener gets used too often to describe a player who simply is not good.

Such as Marcus Morris. He has both, the athletic ability and size to be perfectly fine at SF or PF. But he just isnt a very good player. IMO the issue is not whether he is or is not a tweener, its rendered moot by him being a lousy player.

 

[BC867]

Because "tweener" for most of us also means not ideally suited for either position.

Exactly! Such as Eric Bledsoe at Guard. Or PJ Tucker at Forward.

When I thought of the expression "jack of all trades, master of none", I pictured our player against an opponent who is ideally suited for his position.

In the long run, the tweener comes up short, regardless of how many different positions in which he can come up short. Short in skill, that is.

A team can get by with a tweener here or there, especially if he comes off the bench in short spurts. But not as most of the rotation.

 

[slinslin]

Eric Bledsoe is most definitely not a tweener and neither is Tucker.

In the long run, the tweener comes up short, regardless of how many different positions in which he can come up short. Short in skill, that is.
That is absurd non-sense and if we apply this to your argument that Bledsoe is a tweener so far compared to his matchup he is outperforming his matchup on average by 20.6 PER vs 13.6 PER for a +7.

You have to look at superstars like Paul, Curry and Westbrook to find a better difference. Irving, Wall, Lillard, Conley all rate worse.

 

[BC867]

Eric Bledsoe is most definitely not a tweener and neither is Tucker.

Granted, they are our best defensive players.

But, on offense, Eric Bledsoe is not in the upper echelon of either Point Guards or Shooting Guards.

And PJ Tucker is neither a scoring NBA Wing nor a closing Power Forward.

I maintain that both of them are indeed in-between players who, especially with the game on the line, are not playing the position at which they started the game.

Bledsoe pushed out of position by a smaller Thomas, pushing Dragic to Small Forward, pushing Tucker to either the bench or Power Forward, pushing Kieff to Center. It puts a knot in my chest just typing it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Exactly! Such as Eric Bledsoe at Guard. Or PJ Tucker at Forward.

When I thought of the expression "jack of all trades, master of none", I pictured our player against an opponent who is ideally suited for his position.

In the long run, the tweener comes up short, regardless of how many different positions in which he can come up short. Short in skill, that is.

A team can get by with a tweener here or there, especially if he comes off the bench in short spurts. But not as most of the rotation.

Bledsoe is short for his position but I don't know how anyone can watch him play and call him undersized for either guard spot. He has a lot of flaws but he does so many thing so well. It's possible that when he hits his peak he'll be something like a Carmelo Anthony - a pretty good player that racks up stats but whose shortcomings keep you from taking that next step. In Bledsoe's favor though is that unlike Melo, he's a very good defender.

I don't know what to call Tucker. He fits the bill as a tweener in some ways because let's face it, if he had the height and length to play his natural position (the 4) he'd likely be a star. But as it is, he's having to play a position that he matches up fine for physically, he's just not all that great at it. He's a very good role player that we're having to use as a starter. So, for me, he's just an under skilled small forward. If we start switching him more regularly between the small and power spots then I'd label him a tweener. Playing him down low for 4 or 5 minutes a game isn't the same thing IMO.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

Tucker is a prototypical 3&D small forward, how is that a tweener? He fits the blueprint of his position.
He is not a star because he can't create or handle the ball but he is not a tweener just because he is sometimes guarding power forwards.

 

[BC867]

Bledsoe is short for his position but I don't know how anyone can watch him play and call him undersized for either guard spot.

I was referring to skill more than size.

Eric is not a smooth Point Guard running the offense. Nor is he a pure Shooting Guard. Isn't that what puts him in between on offense?

Again, jack of all trades but master of none, especially when going against a "1" or "2" Guard who is a master of his role.

You said it best, Steve.

...a pretty good player that racks up stats but whose shortcomings keep you from taking that next step.

Oh, how I yearn to see the Suns take that next step.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I was referring to skill more than size.

Eric is not a smooth Point Guard running the offense. Nor is he a pure Shooting Guard. Isn't that what puts him in between on offense?

Again, jack of all trades but master of none, especially when going against a "1" or "2" Guard who is a master of his role.

No he isn't but if you look around the league you'll see that's becoming more and more common. The advantages in today's game for the ball handler have helped create this new wave of point guard. It this was still the 80's, Bledsoe would be a point a minute guy coming off the bench. On his good nights he'd get 20 points and 20 minutes and on his bad nights he'd give you maybe 10 minutes before the coach looked elsewhere. Or maybe he'd be a defensive specialist with few scoring opportunities? But he wouldn't be running a team. He is now and despite some flaws he's doing a pretty good job of it.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

A tweener is not a player who can play more than one position. Magic Johnson and LeBron James are not tweeners. Its also not a player who creates positional matchup problems. Tom Chambers had the size of a PF but could play like a SF (Dirk also fits this category).

A tweener is a player whose limitations keep him from playing any position well and does not have any other special skill to make him useful enough as a specialist (you can always use shooters or lockdown defenders).

I do not think we have ANY tweeners on this team. Some players are just not as good at others at their position, but their position is pretty clear.

This is a decent example.

However, I disagree that we don't have any tweeners. Tucker is a tweener. He's barely 6'5 (most announcers say that 6'5 or 6'6 is being generous for him).

Usual SF height is anywhere between 6'7 and 6'9.

Its even worse when we play Tucker at PF in the small ball lineup.

Kieff isn't a tweener even though he does have short arms. I remember when we drafted him, slinslin kept calling him a tweener due to his arms but I kept correcting him.

Marcus is a tweener because he's too slow to guard most SFs and too small to guard most PFs.

Wright is a tweener in a way due to his height and playing position as C. But he has a ridiculous wingspan which almost makes up for it.

Dragic is a tweener as a SG, great size as PG. Only Wade is even in the height range as him among the good SGs in the league and even Wade is an inch taller with a ridiculous wingspan and athleticism.

IT is obviously undersized.

Other than those guys, I can't think of anyone else. All our young guys have amazing/great size/wingspan for their positions; Ennis, Goodwin, Bullock, Warren and Len.

 

[jandaman]

A tweener forward:
- Not agile enough and too slow to be a small forward
- Not big enough/long enough to be a power forward

A tweener guard is more rare, but similar to above. Basically, players who are likely to be overmatched at either positions they "can" play.

 

[slinslin]

Kieff isn't a tweener even though he does have short arms. I remember when we drafted him, slinslin kept calling him a tweener due to his arms but I kept correcting him.

BS

you can make a forum search, I never called Markieff Morris a tweener, I called him out for his short standing reach that's all and that is still true to this day.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb...rade-180982-2.html?highlight=markieff+tweener

This is the only thread where you can find a post by me that includes Markieff and tweener and in this case I called out Derrick Williams as a tweener and defended Morris against this board.

 

[jandaman]

Bledsoe is almost literally Lebron James but 8 inches shorter.

He isnt tweener version of Lebron who can play PG,SG lol

 

[sunsfan88]

I hope the Suns realize that that this 2 PG crap does not work and that we're finally playing well with some actual size at both SG (6'6 Tucker) and SF (6'8 Marcus).

No more forcing a PG into play the 2 please!

 

[Mainstreet]

I hope the Suns realize that that this 2 PG crap does not work and that we're finally playing well with some actual size at both SG (6'6 Tucker) and SF (6'8 Marcus).

No more forcing a PG into play the 2 please!

The thing is, the Suns are almost locked into it unless they trade Bledsoe or Knight. Neither would be happy coming off the bench.

 

[sunsfan88]

The thing is, the Suns are almost locked into it unless they trade Bledsoe or Knight. Neither would be happy coming off the bench.

Hard to see them trading Knight when he's gonna be a FA and after all the praise Bledsoe got from McD following the Dragic trade, can't see McD trading him either.

 

[BC867]

Hard to see them trading Knight when he's gonna be a FA and after all the praise Bledsoe got from McD following the Dragic trade, can't see McD trading him either.

Why not let Knight go as a free agent (addition by subtraction)? We have a number of candidates for a legitimate starting "2" right on our roster.

But that would take giving up on the 2- or 3-Point Guard Tweener concept that symbolizes the regime of McDonough/Hornacek. The only way that is going to change is if they also move on.

McDonough made that clear when he said that, as long as he is GM, the Suns are going to have two starting Point Guards.

As far as Bledsoe leading the team as Point Guard, that is a different matter. As spectacular as he is from time to time, for him to do his thing at the Point consistently, the Suns would need a superstar like LeBron or Kobe running the offense from their position.

McDonough is locked into Bledsoe as our starting Point Guard. Once again, the only way that is going to change is if he and Hornacek move on.

Tinkering with those two concepts is not going to take us to the next step. It will only leave the Suns in the netherland. Sarver has to grow a pair or else that is what will happen.