What McD is looking for in player

[AzStevenCal]

I don't know if he was doing this in the NBA, but prior to the NBA, he and Zarko Paspalj would have a couple of smokes during halftime.

Yeah, things have changed quite a bit when it comes to smoking. While going to college, I worked a part time job as a bank proof operator (encoding the amounts on checks so they could be read by machines) and we used to smoke at our machines back in the 70's. You would frequently see coaches and athletes with cigarettes and cigars dangling. Hospitals had smoking areas inside and most of them even had patient rooms where smoking was allowed. You could smoke in some college classrooms and many theaters had smoking sections. It changed gradually over the 70's and 80's and then all of a sudden in the 90's it went from acceptable to anathema almost overnight.

Steve

 

[JS22]

There's nothing wrong with fast paced, team oriented "small ball" if you've got a capable center that can defend, rebound, and work from the post (scoring and passing). The Suns have never really had this. And at this point you have to just cross your fingers and hope Len develops.

This is why I wouldn't be horribly opposed to bringing in Monroe. He's an excellent passer, a solid rebounder, and efficient offensively. Defensively he's apparently pretty terrible. But he already meets 3 out of 4 needs and you have to hope he can develop into an above-average defender. I also have a slight suspicion that part of his defensive problems come from playing PF. Monroe is a throwback. He shouldn't be guarding the more athletic "stretch" 4's. He should be anchored to the paint.

 

[Errntknght]

I see your point and will add one more; that seems to be where this organisation has gone wrong. They do what they know best - run and gun - it doesn't materialise into a championship, they then think 'we've got to become more normal' with prototypical 1-5 positions and we turn into a disgrace. Stick to what we know best and let's make it work (while waiting for the league to realise our style is what's best for it).

Run and gun and SSOL are both half of a good idea. The missing half is defense, of course. Years ago Auerbach's Celtics laid down the blueprint for how to succeed playing fastbreak basketball - it has to start with defense and rebounding. The other successful fastbreak team, the 'Showtime' Lakers followed that blueprint - yes the Showtime Lakers were a very good defensive team though it was rarely talked about even at the time.

Hornacek does emphasize D but I'm somewhat disappointed that it doesn't seem to play that big of a role in the players they pursue and the players they put on the floor.

 

[AzStevenCal]

There's nothing wrong with fast paced, team oriented "small ball" if you've got a capable center that can defend, rebound, and work from the post (scoring and passing). The Suns have never really had this. And at this point you have to just cross your fingers and hope Len develops.

This is why I wouldn't be horribly opposed to bringing in Monroe. He's an excellent passer, a solid rebounder, and efficient offensively. Defensively he's apparently pretty terrible. But he already meets 3 out of 4 needs and you have to hope he can develop into an above-average defender. I also have a slight suspicion that part of his defensive problems come from playing PF. Monroe is a throwback. He shouldn't be guarding the more athletic "stretch" 4's. He should be anchored to the paint.

Except he isn't efficient offensively. Despite his transition baskets and his three offensive boards per game he's still shooting under 50% from two point range. For a guy that rarely shoots from more than 5 feet, that's a very unimpressive average. And then there's his horrible free throw percentage. He's a better passer than Markieff and he's a slightly better rebounder but I'd prefer Keef over him at the 4 or the 5 in almost every other aspect, both offensively and defensively.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Run and gun and SSOL are both half of a good idea. The missing half is defense, of course. Years ago Auerbach's Celtics laid down the blueprint for how to succeed playing fastbreak basketball - it has to start with defense and rebounding. The other successful fastbreak team, the 'Showtime' Lakers followed that blueprint - yes the Showtime Lakers were a very good defensive team though it was rarely talked about even at the time.

Hornacek does emphasize D but I'm somewhat disappointed that it doesn't seem to play that big of a role in the players they pursue and the players they put on the floor.

Well, I think they had defense in mind when they traded for Bledsoe and when they drafted Len. I don't know what to think of Jeff's defensive approach though. It looked pretty effective early in the season but not so much late in the year even when Bledsoe returned.

Steve

 

[devilalum]

Run and gun and SSOL are both half of a good idea. The missing half is defense, of course. Years ago Auerbach's Celtics laid down the blueprint for how to succeed playing fastbreak basketball - it has to start with defense and rebounding. The other successful fastbreak team, the 'Showtime' Lakers followed that blueprint - yes the Showtime Lakers were a very good defensive team though it was rarely talked about even at the time.

Hornacek does emphasize D but I'm somewhat disappointed that it doesn't seem to play that big of a role in the players they pursue and the players they put on the floor.

Michael Cooper was an amazing defender. Without him no way the Lakers win all those championships. Defense in 2014 is different. With all the hand check and lane rule changes the age of the lock down defender is pretty much over. Team defense is the new paradigm. You still need the right personnel (having freak athletes doesn't hurt) but its more about weak side help, rotations, passing lanes etc...

 

[Phrazbit]

Well, I think they had defense in mind when they traded for Bledsoe and when they drafted Len. I don't know what to think of Jeff's defensive approach though. It looked pretty effective early in the season but not so much late in the year even when Bledsoe returned.

Steve

It got a bit better once Bledsoe's returned but it was reeeeally bad while he was out. The Morri are both well below average defensively, but I'd hope they could improve there seeing as both have made huge leaps on the other end. Green is also a putrid defender... but I dont see that changing. Plumlee (as has been discussed at length) was baffling last year. For a few months he was one of the best interior defenders and by about January he transformed into one of the worst. Our defense was pretty solid prior to him losing and it Bledsoe going down.

 

[Phoenix219]

But in 46 seasons of the Suns "identity", they have had one Cinderella finals appearance and one legitimate appearance.

Those are the terms on which you want to see the Suns win a championship?

All of us are entitled to our opinions, but what you said just doesn't jive. Over a pretty good sample size history. 46 seasons!

If you drive off a cliff for 46 straight years and your car is totaled each year, sooner or later, you decide that driving off a cliff is not getting you where you want to go.

Alternately, we've waited this long.... the last thing I want to do is sell out who we are and win some *other* way. Just because we've had bad luck doesn't mean our way is wrong. Every year there is only like a 3% chance of being the team to win, anyways. I'd rather watch a fun and entertaining product then sell out my style and my fun for an attempt at winning that probably will STILL fail.

 

[BC867]

Alternately, we've waited this long.... the last thing I want to do is sell out who we are and win some *other* way. Just because we've had bad luck doesn't mean our way is wrong. Every year there is only like a 3% chance of being the team to win, anyways. I'd rather watch a fun and entertaining product then sell out my style and my fun for an attempt at winning that probably will STILL fail.

I wonder if the fathers on this board would say the same things about their son's failing grades at school.

I have never been able to say it about our Suns failing grades in the post-season.

 

[devilalum]

I wonder if the fathers on this board would say the same things about their son's failing grades at school.

I have never been able to say it about our Suns failing grades in the post-season.

So you're saying that the only student who is successful in school is the Valedictorian? The Suns franchise has one the highest winning percentages of any team in any sport but many say they have had no success because they have no ring. The season is 82 games. I for one would not enjoy watching a sloggy team for all those games just to marginally increase the chance of winning a title. The SSOL Suns were the best thing that ever happened to NBA basketball. They were HIGHLY entertaining AND they were VERY good. Many sports writers agreed with me during their run.

 

[sunsfan88]

So you're saying that the only student who is successful in school is the Valedictorian? The Suns franchise has one the highest winning percentages of any team in any sport but many say they have had no success because they have no ring. The season is 82 games. I for one would not enjoy watching a sloggy team for all those games just to marginally increase the chance of winning a title. The SSOL Suns were the best thing that ever happened to NBA basketball. They were HIGHLY entertaining AND they were VERY good. Many sports writers agreed with me during their run.

NBA is a business in which you are judged by the amount of championships. You think anyone other than Suns fans care about which team has the highest winning %? Or the 2nd highest winning %?

Where as if you go and ask any basketball fan which team has the highest number of titles and which team has the 2nd highest number of titles, they will know right away.

 

[AzStevenCal]

NBA is a business in which you are judged by the amount of championships. You think anyone other than Suns fans care about which team has the highest winning %? Or the 2nd highest winning %?

Where as if you go and ask any basketball fan which team has the highest number of titles and which team has the 2nd highest number of titles, they will know right away.

Yes, I do. I've heard it mentioned many times through the years. Do they mention Boston and LA more because of their titles, absolutely. But it's not the only measuring stick for many of us.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Omri Casspi has been waived and apparently the Kings will pick him up for the minimum. He plays both forward positions, he is a decent shooter and plays hard. I know the Suns are stocked with small PFs but Casspi is a solid NBA player.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/234426/Omri-Casspi-Goes-Unclaimed-On-Waivers

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/casspom01.html

 

[BC867]

So you're saying that the only student who is successful in school is the Valedictorian? The Suns franchise has one the highest winning percentages of any team in any sport but many say they have had no success because they have no ring. The season is 82 games. I for one would not enjoy watching a sloggy team for all those games just to marginally increase the chance of winning a title. The SSOL Suns were the best thing that ever happened to NBA basketball. They were HIGHLY entertaining AND they were VERY good. Many sports writers agreed with me during their run.

The post-season is not called the 2nd season for no reason.

Whereas the Suns have been a pretty steady regular season team (a "B", if you please), I would say the grade for the 2nd season in their 46-year history is a "D+".

As you've seen in the posts following yours, there are dissenting opinions. As any of us expect when we post.

Sort of like a recording artist or group who turns out hits over the years from the studio. But just doesn't have the makeup to be better than mediocre at concerts. The Suns have been a good studio band. 'Never a standing ovation or an encore in concert.

P.S.: A team whose Head Coach mocks playing defense, says it is not his job to develop young players and runs his players into the ground with a 7.5 man roster is not a very good team. It was a very incomplete team.

 

[Phoenix219]

I wonder if the fathers on this board would say the same things about their son's failing grades at school.

I have never been able to say it about our Suns failing grades in the post-season.

I wouldn't call the amazing series i've watched over the years, or any of the WCF appearances, or any of the come from behind wins, or crazy overtime games and buzzer beaters, to be failing grades. I definitely chose the wrong wording in my original post... winning the title, and a successful postseason run, are two very different things.

 

[devilalum]

NBA basketball is entertainment. You are no more or less of a man because your team has won a championship.

 

[sunsfan88]

Yes, I do. I've heard it mentioned many times through the years. Do they mention Boston and LA more because of their titles, absolutely. But it's not the only measuring stick for many of us.

Steve

Of course because you are a Suns fan. Fans of teams who haven't won a title care about winning %, division titles, things like that. That's why the Clippers hang their division title banners. It's for the fans, cause they care.

Fans of teams who have won titles only care about that...titles.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Of course because you are a Suns fan. Fans of teams who haven't won a title care about winning %, division titles, things like that. That's why the Clippers hang their division title banners. It's for the fans, cause they care.

Fans of teams who have won titles only care about that...titles.

You're all over the map with your argument but really, who cares what fans of other teams think.

Listen, I know you think that a title is all that matters but go visit any other board. Do they stop complaining once they win a title? Is everything peaches and cream once they hang a banner? Do Lakers fans sit around and say, it's okay if we suck the next 10 years because we have all those banners? Of course they don't.

Make it all about the title if you want, you certainly won't be alone here. But if/when we finally win one, don't be surprised if you find that life still goes on pretty much like it did before.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

You're all over the map with your argument but really, who cares what fans of other teams think.

Listen, I know you think that a title is all that matters but go visit any other board. Do they stop complaining once they win a title? Is everything peaches and cream once they hang a banner? Do Lakers fans sit around and say, it's okay if we suck the next 10 years because we have all those banners? Of course they don't.

Make it all about the title if you want, you certainly won't be alone here. But if/when we finally win one, don't be surprised if you find that life still goes on pretty much like it did before.

Steve

I have seen MANY fans say "Well hey it could be worse, at least we have __ titles."

I have seen Mavs fans who hated overpaying for Parsons and Ellis and hate the direction of their franchise say "At least we have 2011 season".

What can Suns (for example) fans say? At least we had the 2010 season where we almost made Finals? Lol.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I have seen MANY fans say "Well hey it could be worse, at least we have __ titles."

I have seen Mavs fans who hated overpaying for Parsons and Ellis and hate the direction of their franchise say "At least we have 2011 season".

What can Suns (for example) fans say? At least we had the 2010 season where we almost made Finals? Lol.

I've never once heard that. Oh, I've read it from fans on message boards when the conversation is something like the one we're having. But I've never heard anyone say that as part of a general sports conversation. Not once in 59 years. I guess we hang with different people. I really don't have any friends that put that degree of importance on sports. It's a passion but it's not real life. Winning it all isn't going to make my yesterday better nor will it improve my tomorrow.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Of course because you are a Suns fan. Fans of teams who haven't won a title care about winning %, division titles, things like that. That's why the Clippers hang their division title banners. It's for the fans, cause they care.

Fans of teams who have won titles only care about that...titles.

From my point of view over four decades of rooting for the Suns, it is not so much about how many titles have we won (none), but about how many Finals appearances have we not made in 46 years. Forty-four!

What I have hoped for is a team most seasons, well rounded enough to be considered a challenger for a championship. Well-rounded = a roster balanced with offense & defense, power & speed, experience & youth, in both the starting unit and the rest of the rotation. With strength in reserve on the bench to step into the 2nd unit when necessary.

As has been alluded to in the past, the Suns mantra has been called "finesse" and "50-and-fade". And now, with the current roster, it is more of the same.

As a basketball fan, I don't find unbalanced rosters to be entertaining. Especially my hometown roster.

And, oooh, that is my 7,000th post. Wow!

 

[Mainstreet]

From my point of view over four decades of rooting for the Suns, it is not so much about how many titles have we won (none), but about how many Finals appearances have we not made in 46 years. Forty-four!

What I have hoped for is a team most seasons, well rounded enough to be considered a challenger for a championship. Well-rounded = a roster balanced with offense & defense, power & speed, experience & youth, in both the starting unit and the rest of the rotation. With strength in reserve on the bench to step into the 2nd unit when necessary.

As has been alluded to in the past, the Suns mantra has been called "finesse" and "50-and-fade". And now, with the current roster, it is more of the same.

As a basketball fan, I don't find unbalanced rosters to be entertaining. Especially my hometown roster.

And, oooh, that is my 7,000th post. Wow!

Happy 7,000th post BC867.

 

[AzStevenCal]

From my point of view over four decades of rooting for the Suns, it is not so much about how many titles have we won (none), but about how many Finals appearances have we not made in 46 years. Forty-four!

What I have hoped for is a team most seasons, well rounded enough to be considered a challenger for a championship. Well-rounded = a roster balanced with offense & defense, power & speed, experience & youth, in both the starting unit and the rest of the rotation. With strength in reserve on the bench to step into the 2nd unit when necessary.

As has been alluded to in the past, the Suns mantra has been called "finesse" and "50-and-fade". And now, with the current roster, it is more of the same.

As a basketball fan, I don't find unbalanced rosters to be entertaining. Especially my hometown roster.

And, oooh, that is my 7,000th post. Wow!

I really don't either and I look at our upcoming season and worry about our lack of balance. But the thing is, Len and Plumlee might turn out to be that combo of big men that we so desperately need. The question is, how long do we wait? I can live with a guard dominated team for a year or two if help is on the way but Dragic is entering his peak years so I'm hoping we won't have to wait long.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I really don't either and I look at our upcoming season and worry about our lack of balance. But the thing is, Len and Plumlee might turn out to be that combo of big men that we so desperately need. The question is, how long do we wait? I can live with a guard dominated team for a year or two if help is on the way but Dragic is entering his peak years so I'm hoping we won't have to wait long.

Steve

I didn't see where the Suns had a legitimate chance to upgrade their roster upfront this off season. I'm thinking we agree. One can only hope the opportunity presents itself soon. In a way it's like a game of poker, one can only play the cards that are dealt. At least McDonough has tried with the acquisition of Plumlee and Len. Maybe next season the Suns can snatch a big man in the draft.

 

[Errntknght]

Its not so much actually winning a title to me, its having that be the constant goal of the team. What that means is adopting the mindset that we see exemplified in Popovich. The regular season is merely a seeding tournament for the playoffs and it should be used to prepare the team for the playoffs. If that preparation costs a few games so be it. If those few games keep you out of the playoffs, it still doesn't matter because you aren't yet good enough to go deep into them anyway.

Hornacek didn't adopt that view last year and if was understandable - the team was in such disarray that it needed to have all the success it could muster just to get the guys in a good frame of mind. I hope he doesn't carry that over to this year and not having Frye should be an impetus to change it.

Where we have to improve to be in contention is our frontcourt defense and rebounding. The temptation will be to go small and I don't have a problem going small up through PF but I do if it includes center. Frankly, we don't have any guys smaller than Plumles who could do a better defensive/rebounding job than him against big or small - assuming we get the 'good' Plumlee for a whole season. We need to be able to cover C for 48 minutes and Len has far and away the most potential so whether he has 'earned' playing time or not, we need to bring him along as fast as possible. Now, if Randolph not only outplays him but shows the potential to be solid C, then I'd back off on Len and use Randolph. He'd still need 20 mpg or so to continue developing. I'd also play Len is situations where Plums is getting overpowered, as mentioned in an earlier post.

The situation at PF is not so clear cut as we only have Markieff who appears to have much potential and he's going to get to play thiertyish minutes as it is. Maybe it turns out that PF is Tolliver's natural position so he will show unexpected potential but if he doesn't I hope he's relegated to 3pt specialist - a role player. There's also a small chance that Randolph blossoms at the position. Lastly there's the possibility that Len thrives at PF.