When will people critically analyze Kobe Bryant's playoff performances?

mojorizen7

ASFN Addict
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Posts
9,165
Reaction score
472
Location
In a van...down by the river.
And Pippen(7 time all star, 6 time starter) was not only an all star, but one of the 50 greatest players of all time, in his prime.
I was amazed at Pippens ability to handle the ball as well as defend but i'll never agree with this statement depite being named to this list. Pippen was soft too often,he wasn't much of a leader,and his mid-range game was weak. Don't get me wrong....he was a very good player but i don't feel he belonged on that list.
 
Last edited:

Irish

Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Posts
2,668
Reaction score
0
Location
Arizona
The Fifty list is about on par with the AFI !0 greatest movies by category (on last Monday). There were some really bizzare choices such as including Cat Ballou among the 10 greatest westerns of all time.

The Fifty list had too many near current players and had all the problems of comparing periods with vastly different rules. As long as you treat it as entertainment, it's OK. But don't take it seriously.

BTW, Cat Ballou was not even the best comedy western (assuming there was such a category) when competing with Blazing Saddles, Destry Rides Again, and My Little Chickadee.
 

nowagimp

Registered User
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Posts
3,912
Reaction score
0
Location
Gilbert, AZ

So what defenders @ the '2' in jordans era(that he played against) were better than artest, Roy, Battier, Bowen, Bell, Kobe, Prince, Posey etc. mentioned above. Im LOL at your lack of even approaching the question, citing David freakin stern quotes, pathetic. As great as MJ was, perhaps one of the only really long defenders he played against was Drexler. The rest were short, Dumars was supposed to be the best, but at a severe height disadvantage(3"), let alone a length disadvantage. Then there was craig Ehlo(????) who was one of the best in the early jordan era at defending MJ, craig freakin Ehlo, amazing! The NBA has changed, the rosters changed as the rules were enforced differently. The more no calls, the bigger each position will get, and the more the superstar rules are used, the more the value of superstars and dedicated defenders to guard them. When the league became a league of superstars, ball movement wasnt as important since only the superstar got the call.

Let me see, 2 guard defenders

then

Joe dumars 6' 3"
michael cooper 6' 4"
mario elie 6' 4"
Nick andersen 6' 5"
John starks 6' 3"
rolando Blackman 6' 6"
Pippen 6' 7"
Jordan 6' 6"
Peyton 6' 4"
Dan Majerle, 6' 6"

versus today

Artest 6' 7"
TMAC 6' 9"
Kobe 6' 8"
Bowen 6' 8"
Bell 6' 5"
Battier 6' 7"
Prince 6' 9"
Roy 6' 7"
Posey 6' 8"
R Jefferson 6' 7"

todays defenders at the '2' are 3-4" taller and 15-25 lbs heavier (outside artest). They are just plain better, more physical defenders

On the 1992-3 season here is an example all NBA defense 1st team/ 2nd team


Scottie Pippen, Chicago
Dennis Rodman, Detroit
Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Joe Dumars, Detroit



Horace Grant, Chicago
Larry Nance, Cleveland
David Robinson, San Antonio
Dan Majerle, Phoenix
John Starks, New York


Majerle and starks would not make NBA all defense 2nd team today, and Dumars wouldnt make 1st. They would have to be picked over Billups, prince, roy, battier, Josh Howard, Posey, JKidd among others. I dont think so. Kobe Bryant or TMAC would just shred starks or majerle, shred them.


And as far as "coming around" to MJ>kobe, that would require some reading comprehension problems on your part( a def as there was nothing to come around to, you invented it in your mind). I do maintain that Kobe has seen stronger more athletic defenders on the ball, on average over his career, then MJ did.


Why did defense get so much better near the end of the jordan era? Was it the way teams, like rileys knicks, dared the refs to call fouls and slow down the game by fouling early? Was it new ways coaches found to get around the defensive rules? Was it the player evolution into bigger, stronger, or all of the above. One thing is for sure, very little has stayed the same since MJ was in his prime, making stats comparisons of players in the different eras shaky at best. In todays NBA the big long defenders of the '2' position that gave MJ the most trouble late in his career(byron russel, 6'8"), are the norm, not the exception. Joe dumars, John starks, Ron harper, derek harper(all 6'4" or under) all considered very good or great defenders back then would be called undersized for a '2' today. TMAC or Kobe would eat them up like Diaw eats a croissant.
 

Irish

Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Posts
2,668
Reaction score
0
Location
Arizona
When it comes to defense, size does matter. But the rules matter too.

The rules against hand checking, obstructing movement across the lane, and altering the illegal defenses meant that what worked on defense in the 90's were changed. MJ's greatness was the way he could score against much more physical defenses than anybody today. What Bowen does was not an exception in the 90's because for most defenders it would be called as fouls.

The importance of length on defense is not new. I remember how the guy who most bothered Chris Mullen was Kersey because of his lengh. Cliff Robinson played SF some of the time where his length was significant. But due to the rules, neither had to be ultra quick or strong to play great defense.
 

nowagimp

Registered User
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Posts
3,912
Reaction score
0
Location
Gilbert, AZ
When it comes to defense, size does matter. But the rules matter too.

The rules against hand checking, obstructing movement across the lane, and altering the illegal defenses meant that what worked on defense in the 90's were changed. MJ's greatness was the way he could score against much more physical defenses than anybody today. What Bowen does was not an exception in the 90's because for most defenders it would be called as fouls.

The importance of length on defense is not new. I remember how the guy who most bothered Chris Mullen was Kersey because of his lengh. Cliff Robinson played SF some of the time where his length was significant. But due to the rules, neither had to be ultra quick or strong to play great defense.

Where MJ faced greate physicality was when he got past his defender and somebody like Rick Mahorn took a hard foul. The man on Jordan wasnt all that physical, HE was larger than his defender mostly. Artest, Battier, Raja Bell, Roy and Jefferson are plenty physical, more than dumars, starks, peyton and co. But in the 90's if you got by your man, you could end up on your back as an enforcer came on help. Length on defense and offense is huge, and the NBA of jordans day was undersized at the '2' compared with today. Joe Dumans couldnt defend the '2' today for 40 mins, he'd be eaten up in the post trying to guard the likes of kobe, TMAC, Artest. MJ>>>Kobe as a player, but Kobe has faced more physical on ball defense. As for MJ and defense, he was a great defensive player, but it was Pippen who mostly took the toughest assignment. This freed up MJ to wreak havoc on offense, and on help defense.

As far as the rules, woth all the no calls fromn the late 90's on, Im not sure what the rule changes mean if they dont call them. I dont ever recall MJ being hacked and it not being called in the 90's. Today that might not happen if he was playing. Hacks on the dribble penetrator and hand checks are non calls alot in todays NBA.
 
Last edited:

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
63,280
Reaction score
57,485
Location
SoCal
Let me see, 2 guard defenders

then

Joe dumars 6' 3"
michael cooper 6' 4"
mario elie 6' 4"
Nick andersen 6' 5"
John starks 6' 3"
rolando Blackman 6' 6"
Pippen 6' 7"
Jordan 6' 6"
Peyton 6' 4"
Dan Majerle, 6' 6"

versus today

Artest 6' 7"
TMAC 6' 9"
Kobe 6' 8"
Bowen 6' 8"
Bell 6' 5"
Battier 6' 7"
Prince 6' 9"
Roy 6' 7"
Posey 6' 8"
R Jefferson 6' 7"

lol - i think you understate a lot of the older players (dumars was supposed to be 6'4, coop was supposed to be 6'7.

lol again - you list mainly 3's in your "current" list of shooting guards (bowen, battier, prince, posey, richard jefferson, artest). now do they occasionally cover 2's? sure. but not exclusively. who does rip handle when he and prince are on the floor at the same time? surely not a sf.

you're playing with stats to make them fit your argument.
 

nowagimp

Registered User
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Posts
3,912
Reaction score
0
Location
Gilbert, AZ
lol - i think you understate a lot of the older players (dumars was supposed to be 6'4, coop was supposed to be 6'7.

lol again - you list mainly 3's in your "current" list of shooting guards (bowen, battier, prince, posey, richard jefferson, artest). now do they occasionally cover 2's? sure. but not exclusively. who does rip handle when he and prince are on the floor at the same time? surely not a sf.

you're playing with stats to make them fit your argument.

dumars was 6'3", didnt make that one up,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dumarjo01.html


starks is also listed at 6'3", same reference. Both are listed at the same height as Barbosa, an "undersized shooting guard". Rip is 6'6-6'7", prince(6'9") always guards the scoring '2'. Manu is 6'7", he's a shooting guard, right? The POINT is that the '2''s today get taller, stronger defenders ASSIGNED to them.
Coop is listed at 6'5", 180 here, he was actually skinnier than LB, a stick.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/coopemi01.html
lakers stats call him 6"7", 170lbs, IF true only 50 lbs down on branden roy, also at 6'7".

Keep LOL and forget that these are the guys that guard kobe and dumars and starks both at 6'3" defended MJ as "all NBA" defenders. Guys that guard kobe are: posey(6'8"), Roy(6'7"), Battier(6'7"), raja(6'5", 220), prince(6'9") so yes, objective evidence says kobe sees longer, stronger defenders than MJ did.

Times change and memories fade, thats why you need to look it up. I also happen to remember watching Dr. J(6'6"-6'7") -without the fro- standing next to cooper, and no, coop was NOT as tall as the Dr was. Coop was a very long defender, but hardly a physical one.
 

mojorizen7

ASFN Addict
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Posts
9,165
Reaction score
472
Location
In a van...down by the river.
Um...when will this dumb thread ever end?
Talk about over-analyzing a dumb argument....Kobe's very very good.
Jordan was better.
Why do some feel that they have to be "that guy" who will do anything to try and prove against the concensus and the obvious just to be "that guy" when he/she knows the truth.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
36,213
Reaction score
15,211
Location
Arizona
Um...when will this dumb thread ever end?
Talk about over-analyzing a dumb argument....Kobe's very very good.
Jordan was better.
Why do some feel that they have to be "that guy" who will do anything to try and prove against the concensus and the obvious just to be "that guy" when he/she knows the truth.

Amen brother!
 

nashman

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 3, 2007
Posts
10,799
Reaction score
7,771
Location
Queen Creek, AZ
No Kidding let this thread Die like the Lakers did! Kobe will never, EVER be as good as MJ it too late. He is not going to become a different person he is what he is a great basketball player who at times is very selfish.
 

Latest posts

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
552,018
Posts
5,393,920
Members
6,313
Latest member
50 year card fan
Top