When will people critically analyze Kobe Bryant's playoff performances?

[tobiazz]

Comparing Bryant to Jordan is like comparing Dirk to Bird, or Kid to Magic. It's pure silliness. Comparing Bryant to Mitch Richmond, Clyde Drexler, Scottie Pippen, Reggie Miller, and similar stars would be more fruitful.

 

[Covert Rain]

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2001/2001/0527/1205474.html


Perhaps us "Kobe jockers" have a better handle on this stuff.

No I think you "Kobe Jockers" want to believe there is more to Kobe then there is. In today's game he might be the best player. As Phil said "And I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game". Meaning he is probably more balanced in Phil's eyes.

However, he then clarifies that he never asked Jordan to do the things he is asking of Kobe. He never asked Jordan to be a play maker. PHil says "I never asked Michael to be a playmaker". Meaning that Jordon could have done all those things.

Then goes on to clarify even more about Jordan. Phil says ""That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms.".

So to me it's clear. Even though he is asking Kobe to do a wider range of things for the team, clearly MJ was the better player and he felt MJ if asked could and did (when double and triple teamed) the same things. He never places Kobe on the same level as MJ and quickly clarifies his thoughts in regards to Jordan. Like I said, I think it's very telling when Jackson doesn't put them on the same playing field.

 

[carrrnuttt]

Uhm, that quote was a compliment to kobe. Go get the context around it. I remember when that was made..it was a compliment about how much of the offense Kobe was responsible for.

ROFL

Thanks for proving my point:

Kobe jockers would justify the second half of that quote as saying that "Kobe has more responsibilty thrust upon him," when in fact, Jordan had just as much responsibility for his team. He just didn't have to get asked.

Here's a good summary of how I view him (from another site):

But he's always been like this. It's not just the Celtics. He doesn't know when to look for his own shot and when to pass it off.

It's a lot more obvious if you watch earlier tapes of him. When he first came into the league he was basically a Jordan Jukebox set on random play. He would shoot fadeaways against guys who were just as big or bigger than he was (the whole point of the fadeaway was to take advantage of smaller defenders)...drive into crowds of defenders and NOT make the pass once it freed up the team's three point shooters...and so on.

He HAS all the moves, but didn't know when or why to use them, and even today he never quite had a feel for it.

In regards to how he views passing, even if he doesn't see it as weak, I think in his mind he wants the glory and wants to show everyone just how good he is...obviously he's made it the mission of his entire life...and passing it off stops him from doing that.

I think Lebron understands it more. Lebron knows the difference between giving your team the best chance to score and giving your team the best chance to win the basketball game. Sometimes, giving one of your team's worst shooters a chance to put the ball up every now and then may not help you as much on that one possession, but if it makes him play defense and try hard for the rest of the game, then it's the right thing to do.

 

[D-Dogg]

No I think you "Kobe Jockers" want to believe there is more to Kobe then there is. In today's game he might be the best player. As Phil said "And I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game". Meaning he is probably more balanced in Phil's eyes.

No, meaning exactly what he said.

However, he then clarifies that he never asked Jordan to do the things he is asking of Kobe. He never asked Jordan to be a play maker. PHil says "I never asked Michael to be a playmaker". Meaning that Jordon could have done all those things.

No, again. meaning that he never asked him to be a playmaker.

Why do you need to put words in Phil's mouth? I would guess he'd even be more upset about that kind of stuff than cheese is.

So to me it's clear. Even though he is asking Kobe to do a wider range of things for the team, clearly MJ was the better player and he felt MJ if asked could and did (when double and triple teamed) the same things. He never places Kobe on the same level as MJ and quickly clarifies his thoughts in regards to Jordan. Like I said, I think it's very telling when Jackson doesn't put them on the same playing field.

You sure do read a lot into comments.

 

[D-Dogg]

ROFL

Thanks for proving my point:



Here's a good summary of how I view him (from another site):

ROFL.

Thanks for proving my point.

Go get the context around it. I remember when that was made..it was a compliment about how much of the offense Kobe was responsible for.

Exactly as I said it was. It wasn't some slap at Kobe as some of you were pretending it was. It's silly to grasp at straws to prove some point nobody is even arguing with you.

 

[carrrnuttt]

ROFL.

Thanks for proving my point.



Exactly as I said it was. It wasn't some slap at Kobe as some of you were pretending it was. It's silly to grasp at straws to prove some point nobody is even arguing with you.

You're seriously amusing me.

I never said it was a "slap at Kobe," you mindless Kobe fanatic. I was saying that this was a calculated response from "Mr. MindGames" himself, where he doesn't look like an ass by calling Kobe better than Jordan, while massaging Kobe's MASSIVE ego.

I was also reading between the lines of what he said. If you take what Zen-boy says at face value, then is he saying that Kobe's a better playmaker then? If so, do you agree? Before your homer instincts compels you to reply, I re-submit the long quote posted below.

3 words as to why the Lakers will never ever win a championship with Kobe Bryant at the helm.

Decision making process.

It was evident tonight when the Celtics made their run, what does Bryant proceed to do during the 3rd quarter?

Launch ill-advised jumpers.

Here’s Brian K’s (LA TIMES Blog) take:

“Kobe came out in the third looking to get himself going. More iso, more one-on-one, more jumpshooting. All of that equals less ball movement. ”

Usually when the spotlight is shining, the real stars step up and seize the moment. Let’s take a look back at Bryant’s stats in Finals history.

Remember, this is the Finals. Doesn’t get any bigger than this, correct?

Here we go:

***Against Indiana 1999-2000

15.6 PPG and 36% FG (While Shaq avg. 38 PPG, 16.6 RBDS, and 61% FG).

Wow. Talk about stepping up Kobe.

Revisionist like to imagine as Kobe being “clutch”. Once again, the actual numbers tell a whole different story.

***Against Philly 2000-2001

24.6 PPG and 41.5% FG. Once again. Look at the staggering high shooting percentage. Coming through again.

Remember, this will have been the 2nd Finals series that he has shot poorly in.

***Against New Jersey 2001-2002

26.8 PPG and 51.4% FG. Finally. For once, Bryant lives up to expectations in the Finals.

It’s strange how some like to romp and cheer when Bryant has a performance like 30 PPG and 50% FG.

Isn’t it expected from the “best player in the game”?

Or are they cheering because those type of performances are atypical, hence since it’s not expected, they are pleasantly surprised?

Puzzling.

***Against Detroit 2003-2004

22.6 PPG and 37% FG. Obviously Bryant had “choking” issues on and off the court that year.

***Against Boston 2007-2008

After tonight’s catastrophe, FG% is probably hovering around 40%.

As clearly demonstrated, Kobe has only performed in 1 out of 5 Finals series.

Is that acceptable for someone that anointed by quick to the draw Kobe zealots that proclaim him as the best ever simply because of his scoring prowess?

Though amazing as singular feats (string of 50+ pts, string of 40+ pts, 62 pts in 3 quarters, 81 pts, etc.), what have those done for the bottom line, anyway?

The bottom line is to win a championship, is it not? That’s what all athletes should strive for. Go back and look at those stats again. Bryant’s done practically nothing in the Finals 4 out of 5 series. That’s a HUGE sample size already.

24 games total.

When can the fans see one of those performances worthy of MVP chants? If he’s in a slump, when will it end? 2015 when he retires? Most fans would be all for Kobe being anointed as the best ever. But as clearly shown, he’s far far far from it. One has to do it on the biggest stage for it to matter. Who cares if he wins 5 more scoring titles, 3 more MVP’s.

Bryant’s play in the Finals (career-wise) as been a huge letdown. His play has cemented and tarnished what little veracity to begin with regarding his clutchness (biggest choke up in the Finals, can’t “take over” on the Finals stage), basketball mind (look at all those low FG% - poor shot selection - low basketball IQ), and leadership (team on its heels, he cowers and launches jumpers).

Stats don’t lie.

Bryant is an absolute choke job when comes to the Finals. All those All-star MVP’s, scoring titles, All-defense teams, MVP’s, means absolutely zilch when it doesn’t come into play during the Finals.

And as for fans holding out hope that Bryant will lead the charge in the revival, don’t hold your breath.

Using history to serve as a reminder, most of know that it ain’t gonna happen.

Also, to counter the excuses flying around in this very thread, citing the Celtics' "historic defense" as the reason for Kobe's poor performance in these Finals, I also re-submit the 2005 Round 1 Game 7 vs the Suns. Apparently, the Suns' defense was so historic, that it "held" Kobe to 3 shot attempts in the 2nd half of an elimination game.

 

[carrrnuttt]

BTW, I am also having an argument similar to this on another board, and this came up:

I think you also have to consider the very tough Zone defense Kobe has faced in comparison to Jordan, much more with the Celtics. It doesnt' take anything away from Jordan's greatness but in fairness to accuracy we also have to acknowledge that the reality is Jordan never faced a coverage like the perimeter players have received today.

LMFAO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6_GgXXR4vA

I also submit 3 words: NO HANDCHECK RULE.

 

[mojorizen7]

Who needs Phil Jackson to tell us who's the better basketball player?

Kobe vs MJ debate......? Uh no, there is no debate if you actually watched the games.

How quickly some forget i guess....

Sheesh.

 

[nashman]

MJ had to deal with much better and rougher defense Donald, come on you know the rules today favor offense to the point most of the time more than half of Komes' points come off free throws night in and night out. Geesh the guy will make like 7 shots and have 40 points its ridiculous.

 

[nowagimp]

Here you go.

http://www.nba.com/jordan/mj9798.html

FINALS STATS
YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG PPG
1998 Chi 6 6 41.7 .427 .814 1.5 2.5 4.0 2.3 1.83 0.67 33.5

Oh and by the way don't go there. MJ had to deal with a different era of hand checking, no zone defense and an illegal defense that was much loser then it is today. Today's rule changes favor offense. If Jordan could play by those rules his numbers would have been better. That was even coming from Phil Jackson himself.

Im LOL at the hand checking rule, MJ invented the left hand slap of the defenders hand, that is now called a foul. He also used it(his left hand) to push off Byron russel to win his last championship. MJ did get some of the best superstar treatment of any player in the history of the NBA. It doesnt change his true greatness, just embellished the legend perhaps. The zone defense FAVORS the offense? LOL there as well, zones may favor offensive rebounding, but certainly not dribble penetrators or guys with a great pull up shot in the lane like MJ. Frankly, the permitting of hand checking works for a bigger player on a smaller, quicker one, not so the other way around(have you ever been hand checked by a semi pro player?). It allows big guards like MJ to guard little faster ones like KJ. Without it, KJ blows right by him. When they first instituted that rule John Stockton blew by MJ, they they backed off the rule. Hand checking favored big guards on defense like MJ, Pippen. Handchecking was key in the bulls win in '93, Pippen and MJ stopped KJ on the dribble penetration with the hand checks( if you recall, KJ called them grabs, not checks). Bowen still hand checks Nash at will, no penalty.

As for bashing MJ, please, I said he was the 2nd greatest guard ever, to magic. I also said he doesnt win squat without 2 all stars besides himself and a deep bench. Its pretty much true for any great player, MJ is no different there. You want to counter that one? I didnt think so, because you cant. If bashing MJ means I dont think he was the greatest player ever, then I guess Im a basher. You guys are entitled to your opinion, I didnt call you a "magic basher", get a little thicker skin and grow up.

And again Im not a kobe bryant fan, but he is widely acknowledged as the most skilled player in the NBA today. Comparing him to mitch richmond will get 95% of all NBA fans and professionals laughing at YOU. Suns fans need to look forward and stop being poor losers. The suns went fishing early, get some class and stop trolling for lakers fans on this board and start talking suns basketball and draft.

 

[carrrnuttt]

...get some class and stop trolling for lakers fans on this board and start talking suns basketball and draft.

Speak for yourself.

Yes, I know what you're saying. But in truth, you're doing the trolling FOR the Lakers fans, so your statement holds truer for you, than the absurdity that a Suns fan would be "fishing" for Lakers fans' comments on a SUNS board.

 

[nowagimp]

Speak for yourself.

Yes, I know what you're saying. But in truth, you're doing the trolling FOR the Lakers fans, so your statement holds truer for you, than the absurdity that a Suns fan would be "fishing" for Lakers fans' comments on a SUNS board.

Just a basketball fan that doesnt get annoyed at the "drop of a post" by some one who disagrees. This thread was a troll in the first place and I didnt create it or support it, you did. If you cant see that, troll on.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Let the Kobe bashing begin! Just can't let it go can you guys?

There are many reasons the Celts won. I agree with Dream that PJ deserves much more of the fault than anyone, followed closely by the fact the bench, who were strong all year, simply didn't show up. Gasol and Odom played a total of maybe 5 quarters with any intensity as well. Much has to be credited to the Boston D for all this. Kobe played decent. Not MJ supernova level but good enough to win had his supporting cast delivered. They simply did not and PJ was completely out coached.

I attribute the Celts bench outplaying the the Lakers bench to experience over youth. A lot of us thought their youth would enable them to outrun and tire the celts bench and it just didn't happen.

The Celts deserve credit for bringing it. The Lakers did not. Other than the blowout 6th and 10 point 1st game all others were within 6 points.

It's time to give the Kobe bashing a rest and just appreciate what he brings to the floor rather than put him under a microscope for every little aspect of his life.

Were these numbers for the finals really that bad?

Mins 38
FG% .432
3p% .393
Reb 4.5
assists 6.3
steals 1.2
blocks .3
turnover 3.6
fouls 4.0
points 21.8

Honestly, Are those numbers so awfully bad that everyone has to bash the guy? Everybody who hates Kobe keeps saying their is no comparison to MJ. So I ask a simple question. Why don't you stop camparing them? Let Kobe be Kobe. He's not done yet.

a) this entire thread was not meant to bash kobe, but to respond to all the ridiculous claims that he's jordan. the initial argument was never "kobe will never be jordan" it's always been "kobe is finally jordan!" cheese's thread was meant to debunk that myth.

b) those numbers all but prove kobe is not jordan. i don't want to research it, but i doubt jordan ever had numbers approaching those in a final.

c) those numbers are okay - but are they mvp numbers? no way.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Good post.

The only problem with the numbers is that they weren't KB numbers and didnt result in a title. KB has set the bar extemely high.

abomb, you have to admit, that if those were the best numbers from your best player in almost any series you have no chance to win. kobe did not rise above. that's wherein his criticism lies. that, and the fact that in order to succeed you have to, at a minimum, usually meet your averages, which he didn't. and, as the best player, you are often expected, nay - NEEDED, to exceed your averages as your lesser teammates almost inevitably will shrink a bit from the pressure. those are kobe's failures this year in the finals.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

all star PF

you keep saying this. did you not read cheese refutation of that concept. jordan never played with another all-star other than pippen.

 

[mojorizen7]

As for bashing MJ, please, I said he was the 2nd greatest guard ever, to magic. I also said he doesnt win squat without 2 all stars besides himself and a deep bench

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Covert Rain]

No, meaning exactly what he said.

No, again. meaning that he never asked him to be a playmaker.

Why do you need to put words in Phil's mouth? I would guess he'd even be more upset about that kind of stuff than cheese is.

You sure do read a lot into comments.

Um...he further clarified by saying he never asked Jordon to do that yet he did ask him when he was double or triple teamed. It's in black and white. I think your reading into it.

He still stated in black and white Jordan was the greatest. No such comment for Kobe. Again, you don't have to read between the lines there.

Im LOL at the hand checking rule, MJ invented the left hand slap of the defenders hand, that is now called a foul. He also used it(his left hand) to push off Byron russel to win his last championship. MJ did get some of the best superstar treatment of any player in the history of the NBA. It doesnt change his true greatness, just embellished the legend perhaps. The zone defense FAVORS the offense? LOL there as well, zones may favor offensive rebounding, but certainly not dribble penetrators or guys with a great pull up shot in the lane like MJ. Frankly, the permitting of hand checking works for a bigger player on a smaller, quicker one, not so the other way around(have you ever been hand checked by a semi pro player?). It allows big guards like MJ to guard little faster ones like KJ. Without it, KJ blows right by him. When they first instituted that rule John Stockton blew by MJ, they they backed off the rule. Hand checking favored big guards on defense like MJ, Pippen. Handchecking was key in the bulls win in '93, Pippen and MJ stopped KJ on the dribble penetration with the hand checks( if you recall, KJ called them grabs, not checks). Bowen still hand checks Nash at will, no penalty.

Are you freaking kidding me? Have you ever played organized basketball? One of the Zone's biggest weakness is setting picks on a player playing zone. MJ would have a field day coming off picks for shots. What about shooting the gaps (or seams)? MJ only ever needed a seam to get wide open J's. Dude...you crack me up. ALso, Phil Jackson himself says that Jordon would be better with todays rules. So I guess you LOL and Phil too.

Also, have you not watched speech after speech with Stern over the last 5 or 6 years? All of his rule changes were made to bring up scoring in the NBA. Remember how low scoring the NBA had become? The NBA didn't magically start scoring more points. Rule changes that benefit the offensive game is was brought up scoring again.

As for bashing MJ, please, I said he was the 2nd greatest guard ever, to magic. I also said he doesnt win squat without 2 all stars besides himself and a deep bench. Its pretty much true for any great player, MJ is no different there. You want to counter that one?

You either can't read or didn't read what I wrote. I specifically stated that MJ couldn't do it alone. However, I would like to see you counter that those teams can take their top player out of the equation and still win a title. SO......stay with me here.....if your top player plays like crap....no title. So to say if Kobe doesn't show up the Lakers had no shot...how exactly is that not accurate?

 

[Andrew]

I will...he freaking sucks ass...

 

[D-Dogg]

c) those numbers are okay - but are they mvp numbers? no way.

Those were Paul Pierce's numbers.

 

[Bigdez22]

first post on the topic.........

KOBE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!
THE FAKERS SUCK!!!!!!!!

Why do we talk so much Faker basketball on this forum. We are 7 days away from the draft and we are talking about something we already know.

are there more laker fans on this site then suns fans??????

 

[nowagimp]

you keep saying this. did you not read cheese refutation of that concept. jordan never played with another all-star other than pippen.

Rodman(1990, 1992), horace grant(1993,1994), rodman was also defensive player of the year and grant was all NBA defense 2nd team. Cheeses refutation is just a technicality, These guys became all stars WITHOUT MJ, so he didnt help them become all stars by being on the floor. So they didnt happen to get voted in when they played with MJ. We all know they restrict the number of all stars/team when the coach adds the substitutes. These guys were all star caliber players. Rodman averaged 13.1 boards for his career, calling him "not an all star" is funny, LOL. I'll give you that cartwright(all star, 1979) wasnt all star caliber player during the jordan era, but being an all star multiple years certainly qualifies one as an all star caliber player 1 year removed from that honor. And Pippen(7 time all star, 6 time starter) was not only an all star, but one of the 50 greatest players of all time, in his prime.

 

[nowagimp]

Um...he further clarified by saying he never asked Jordon to do that yet he did ask him when he was double or triple teamed. It's in black and white. I think your reading into it.

He still stated in black and white Jordan was the greatest. No such comment for Kobe. Again, you don't have to read between the lines there.



Are you freaking kidding me? Have you ever played organized basketball? One of the Zone's biggest weakness is setting picks on a player playing zone. MJ would have a field day coming off picks for shots. What about shooting the gaps (or seams)? MJ only ever needed a seam to get wide open J's. Dude...you crack me up. ALso, Phil Jackson himself says that Jordon would be better with todays rules. So I guess you LOL and Phil too.

Also, have you not watched speech after speech with Stern over the last 5 or 6 years? All of his rule changes were made to bring up scoring in the NBA. Remember how low scoring the NBA had become? The NBA didn't magically start scoring more points. Rule changes that benefit the offensive game is was brought up scoring again.



You either can't read or didn't read what I wrote. I specifically stated that MJ couldn't do it alone. However, I would like to see you counter that those teams can take their top player out of the equation and still win a title. SO......stay with me here.....if your top player plays like crap....no title. So to say if Kobe doesn't show up the Lakers had no shot...how exactly is that not accurate?

1)In the early 90's scoring was higher than now. Remember the '93 suns? I'll bet kobes career had been a lower scoring era than jordans. Jordans '93 bulls averaged 105 pts and gave up 98 pts a game. this was good for the top 7 in the NBA, not so today. Defenses got tougher in the late 90's at the very end of his career. Jordan was defended by mario elie(6'4"), john starks(6'3"), dumars(6'3"), derek harper(6'4"), rolando blackmon(6'6"). Todays defenders at the '2' grab more and are stronger and longer: artest(6'7" and a load), posey(6'8"), battier(6'7"), bowen(6'8"), salmons(6'7"), kobe(6'8"), brandon Roy(6'7"). A young Jordan(6'6", 195lbs) would be an averaged sized but underweight '2' today, but he was a "big" '2' in his day. Heck I'll go out on a limb and say all the guys mentioned above are/were bigger, stronger and better defenders than all but jordan and pippen back then(and most were stonger than jordan and pippen). MJ was almost never guarded by a stronger or longer player. This is why offense had to be improved, the defenders got bigger stronger and abused hand checking, hence scores dropped. These guys actually work out and make the defenders of the MJ era look small, skinny. If they truly enforced the hand checking it would be different, but what suns fan believe that they enforce the hand checking rules consistently?

2) never said kobe was even close to MJ as a player(head, plus skills), never, look it up. You probably cant find 5 people outside LA who believe that, why even argue it, unless youre just trolling for a kobe lover to mess with. I guess you have some reading issues of your own when you get into the argument mode. These lakers dont come close to the MJ bulls, neither did the shaq kobe lakers, and I never indicated otherwise.

MJ>kobe
Pippen> gasol
rodman>odom

LOL that you even think this needs an argument.

3) on the screens, its alot easier to keep the ball away from MJ than to than to take it away from him. And with a zone, the isolation play, a jordan specialty is not as effective as help comes faster. After all, is anyone going to dispute that MJ was the greatest one-on-one player in NBA history? To suggest that MJ is more dangerous WITHOUT the ball(coming off screens) is hilarious. How is he then going to be more effective being doubled in zones with impunity? You act as if the defense would treat him as just another player running off the screen, I suspect 2-3 guys would follow him everywhere in the lane area as they do Nash or Kobe only moreso. The strategy would be to make someone else beat you, not MJ. Would his team still win, probably, but his stats would probably not be as impressive as teams overplay him and let others beat them.

4) as for your "take away the top player argument", its silly, of course you cant win mostly even if you take away the 3rd best player its a problem. If rodman doesnt rebound, the MJ/rodman bulls have a problem against the Jazz. On the 70 win team, Rodman grabbed 15rpg, and jordan was next with 6.6rpg. I suspect they would have been in trouble without rodman. Oh, yeah he grabbed 15rpg was one of the top defenders in the NBA but wasnt an all star that year, HAHAHA! Yeah he was just a bit player!

5) zone defenses allow the packing of the lane, and are seriously susceptible to outside shooters. They also protect poor defenders from being hung out to dry with dominant one-on-one guys, and ALLOW outstanding offensive player that dont play good defense to hide in the defense. Zone defenses also allow floppers to draw fouls on help, not that MJ would get called for those under stern. I could see a box and one or a triangle and two with switching working better on slowing MJ down that straight up man to man. And I dont think MJ EVER had to deal with floppers(easier to be one in a zone) waiting for him to drive the lane.

Thats why I dont think MJ stats would be better today, the dedicated defenders are better now. Sure MJ would still be the best player in todays game, but the players AND the rules have changed. Attributing everything to the rules is just wrong. Kobe is definitely not better than MJ, but he has seen better, bigger and stronger defenders over his career.

 

[Covert Rain]

1)In the early 90's scoring was higher than now. Remember the '93 suns? I'll bet kobes career had been a lower scoring era than jordans. Jordans '93 bulls averaged 105 pts and gave up 98 pts a game. this was good for the top 7 in the NBA, not so today. Defenses got tougher in the late 90's at the very end of his career. Jordan was defended by mario elie(6'4"), john starks(6'3"), dumars(6'3"), derek harper(6'4"), rolando blackmon(6'6"). Todays defenders at the '2' grab more and are stronger and longer: artest(6'7" and a load), posey(6'8"), battier(6'7"), bowen(6'8"), salmons(6'7"), kobe(6'8"), brandon Roy(6'7"). A young Jordan(6'6", 195lbs) would be an averaged sized but underweight '2' today, but he was a "big" '2' in his day. Heck I'll go out on a limb and say all the guys mentioned above are/were bigger, stronger and better defenders than all but jordan and pippen back then(and most were stonger than jordan and pippen). MJ was almost never guarded by a stronger or longer player. This is why offense had to be improved, the defenders got bigger stronger and abused hand checking, hence scores dropped. These guys actually work out and make the defenders of the MJ era look small, skinny. If they truly enforced the hand checking it would be different, but what suns fan believe that they enforce the hand checking rules consistently?

Oh dear lord. What a short memory you have. The decline in NBA scoring is fact not an opinion.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/john_hollinger/10/25/defense.stats/

This is one of about 30 articles you can find if you google it. David Stern has done many an interview about gearing rule changes to bring up NBA scoring. Again, fact not opinion.

Nuff said.

2) never said kobe was even close to MJ as a player(head, plus skills), never, look it up. You probably cant find 5 people outside LA who believe that, why even argue it, unless youre just trolling for a kobe lover to mess with. I guess you have some reading issues of your own when you get into the argument mode. These lakers dont come close to the MJ bulls, neither did the shaq kobe lakers, and I never indicated otherwise.

MJ>kobe
Pippen> gasol
rodman>odom

LOL that you even think this needs an argument.

No argument from me. You just repeated what I was telling you about 5 posts ago. Glad to see you see the light.

3) on the screens, its alot easier to keep the ball away from MJ than to than to take it away from him. And with a zone, the isolation play, a jordan specialty is not as effective as help comes faster. After all, is anyone going to dispute that MJ was the greatest one-on-one player in NBA history? To suggest that MJ is more dangerous WITHOUT the ball(coming off screens) is hilarious. How is he then going to be more effective being doubled in zones with impunity? You act as if the defense would treat him as just another player running off the screen, I suspect 2-3 guys would follow him everywhere in the lane area as they do Nash or Kobe only moreso. The strategy would be to make someone else beat you, not MJ. Would his team still win, probably, but his stats would probably not be as impressive as teams overplay him and let others beat them.

Who said anything about coming off the ball on screens? You know you can actually dribble the ball into a screen. Nash does it all the time. Are you for real? Dude.....I guess your right and Phil is wrong. Forgive me if I take the word of a coach who has actually coached both players.

4) as for your "take away the top player argument", its silly, of course you cant win mostly even if you take away the 3rd best player its a problem. If rodman doesnt rebound, the MJ/rodman bulls have a problem against the Jazz. On the 70 win team, Rodman grabbed 15rpg, and jordan was next with 6.6rpg. I suspect they would have been in trouble without rodman. Oh, yeah he grabbed 15rpg was one of the top defenders in the NBA but wasnt an all star that year, HAHAHA! Yeah he was just a bit player!

If you take away the 3rd best player...you still have a shot. Ofcourse it becomes more difficult. You still have a shot. Take away MJ...No shot. Simple concept. I agree with what the writers were saying. They get it. I get it. You don't. Not trying to say anything more.

Thats why I dont think MJ stats would be better today, the dedicated defenders are better now. Sure MJ would still be the best player in todays game, but the players AND the rules have changed. Attributing everything to the rules is just wrong. Kobe is definitely not better than MJ, but he has seen better, bigger and stronger defenders over his career.

This last part is so laughable I don't even no where to start.

 

[sunsallday]

off topic but the greatest PGs of all time are(in no particular order of greatness)

Oscar Robertson(30 points, 11 assists, 10 rebounds, insane)
Lenny Wilkins
Bob Cousy
Magic Johnson
John Stockton(greatest passer of all time)
Walt Frazier
K.C Jones
Earl Monroe
Kevin Johnson
Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash

Also, the Suns saved the league in 2004-2005 from becoming even more boring. Stern should be thanking the Suns for making basketball exciting again after a lot of teams started copying them.

 

[Irish]

I think Porter deserves consideration for this category. It's not so much that he's in the top 10 all time for assists and had a career 38.6% average for three; he was just an outstanding leader on some very good teams.

I'm not sure Tim Hardaway was the leader that Terry Porter was, but he was one of my favorite guys. He averaged 17.7 ppg and 8.2 assists per game for his career. If he had been on an elite team, he'd be right up there.