Where are all the pro shaq fans and marion bashers now?

[Chris_Sanders]

Oh and DCR, the large expiring contract and extra draft picks was Kurt Thomas.

Oh and name another GM that trades away unprotected draft picks...multiple ones...and gets no player in return. It is worse than Isiah.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Oh and DCR, the large expiring contract and extra draft picks was Kurt Thomas.

Oh and name another GM that trades away unprotected draft picks...multiple ones...and gets no player in return. It is worse than Isiah.

I agree with both of these points. I really do. It just doesn't apply to the Marion + Banks = Shaq trade.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

And the idea that we weren't winning anyway this year and thus Shaq trade equals good trade is very short sighted.

We aren't winning a playoff series this year with Shaq. And as an added bonus we will be anchored by his contract and have no draft picks. Hooray.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

And the idea that we weren't winning anyway this year and thus Shaq trade equals good trade is very short sighted.

We aren't winning a playoff series this year with Shaq. And as an added bonus we will be anchored by his contract and have no draft picks. Hooray.

This team with Shaq has a better chance of winning it all than the Marion/Banks team. It might not even make the playoffs, but it might win the championship if it sneaks in, even as an 8th seed. I don't think that team that started the year could say that.

We may disagree on that one.

If we don't win it all this year, it could start getting ugly pretty quick though.

 

[TucsonDevil]

And the idea that we weren't winning anyway this year and thus Shaq trade equals good trade is very short sighted.

We aren't winning a playoff series this year with Shaq. And as an added bonus we will be anchored by his contract and have no draft picks. Hooray.

Completely disagree. We saw what this team could do full strength against the WEST this year - it was a horrible record. We haven't seen what they can do with Shaq yet... at full strength (some argue that we haven't quite figured it out).

 

[Chris_Sanders]

We are now giving up an average of 106 ppg with Shaq. That jumps up to 116 PPG if you take away the Boston game. I don't see how we can win anything with that kind of awful defense.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

We are now giving up an average of 106 ppg with Shaq. That jumps up to 116 PPG if you take away the Boston game. I don't see how we can win anything with that kind of awful defense.

Pretty sure we were giving up about the same before the trade.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Pretty sure we were giving up about the same before the trade.

With Marion we were only giving up 103 ppg. We also had a large positive point differential of +6.

Now we are at a -6 point differential with Shaq starting. That is an 11 point swing.

Do people really believe we are going to find a 12 point improvement between offense and defense in the time we have remaining? I just don't see it.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

With Marion we were only giving up 103 ppg. We also had a large positive point differential of +6.

Now we are at a -6 point differential with Shaq starting. That is an 11 point swing.

Do people really believe we are going to find a 12 point improvement between offense and defense in the time we have remaining? I just don't see it.

Do we need to? There are lots of positives to this trade already. Defensive rebounding, frontcourt defense, etc.

 

[MiamiHeat]

guys need to understand that the playoffs is a different NBA. the HEAT had a bad record against all the good teams in the NBA during it's 06 title run. the suns regular season sweeped, dallas, etc..... but then in the playoffs......it was different. of course, i cant deny the fact that dwyane wade turned into michael jordan for the finals, but still. you cant go and say that the suns were going to lose. last year they shoulda beat the spurs.

 

[nowagimp]

We are now giving up an average of 106 ppg with Shaq. That jumps up to 116 PPG if you take away the Boston game. I don't see how we can win anything with that kind of awful defense.

The stat is a bit misleading as the massive increase in turnovers led to alot of easy baskets at the opther end. Its kind of hard to blame the defense for the turnovers on offense. However the suns have been allowing opponents to shoot 50+% from the field, not good. The suns traded their tendency to give up offensive rebounds for alot of turnovers, better defensive rebounding and a considerable rise in opponents FG%(46-50%). This will not work, but if they can get the turnovers under control and get a more consistent effort on their perimeter defense, they will have a chance, which they didnt have this year with their KT-less front line.

 

[green machine]

We are now giving up an average of 106 ppg with Shaq. That jumps up to 116 PPG if you take away the Boston game. I don't see how we can win anything with that kind of awful defense.

If you're going to exclude the Boston game then take out the Detroit game.

What are the stats like then?

 

[D-Dogg]

We are now giving up an average of 106 ppg with Shaq. That jumps up to 116 PPG if you take away the Boston game. I don't see how we can win anything with that kind of awful defense.

Pretty sure we were giving up about the same before the trade.

I have been tracking the Suns PPG with Shaq in the lineup vs. without (that includes the few games you were Marionless). Don't ask me why...just a curiousity. Anyway, it's not good.

Scoring down, points allowed up:

For/Against

124 130
85 77
86 116
127 113
103 120
114 119
97 92
113 126


106.1 111.6


Prior to Shaq in the lineup:

109.9 104.1


Sample is still small, too small to be relevant, but the direction both ways is not good.

 

[MiamiHeat]

the suns are giving up a ton of points in the paint........

 

[D-Dogg]

BTW, I don't think Shaq is the impact on the points allowed (ancillary, maybe) but instead is because you lost a key perimeter defender in Marion who could guard anywhere on the court. Shaq is a slight reason the scoring is down, but his rebounding giving you second chance points offsets a lot of that.

 

[mojorizen7]

I haven't changed my opinion on this trade. It had to be made IMO.
We weren't going to do anything special with the small ball roster.
I think that the SUNS believing that we were just going to "plug in" Shaq and basically play the same style was naieve,and to this point DA has been willing to only tinker with his style rather than using our strengths and utilize Shaq/Amare in the post.
Every game i've seen DA goes into the post to Shaq early and then goes away from it as the game progresses.
B.T.W, i still love Marion's game but it wasn't conducive to winning playoff games against teams that dictate a slower tempo.
I actually think that if the SUNS can manage to find some defensive intensity we can do some damage in the playoffs if & when the tempo slows to a crawl...i just hope we can get there(playoffs).

 

[TucsonDevil]

Chris, if your point is to say the Suns should have held onto draft picks this summer, or demanded draft picks in return from Miami - then I agree. However, the Suns had to get something for Marion - he was walking this summer or next. And with Marion, the Suns proved they couldn't be champions, over and over.

 

[Covert Rain]

I have been tracking the Suns PPG with Shaq in the lineup vs. without (that includes the few games you were Marionless). Don't ask me why...just a curiousity. Anyway, it's not good.

Scoring down, points allowed up:

For/Against

124 130
85 77
86 116
127 113
103 120
114 119
97 92
113 126


106.1 111.6


Prior to Shaq in the lineup:

109.9 104.1


Sample is still small, too small to be relevant, but the direction both ways is not good.

What I want to see is a breakdown of Point in the Paint pre and post Shaq. I am just to lazy to look it up right now.

I am guessing that Points in the Paint has improved, along with rebounding. However, it appears to me that every single game since getting Shaq someone from the other team is going 3 crazy on us.

 

[Maligzar]

With Marion we were only giving up 103 ppg. We also had a large positive point differential of +6.

Now we are at a -6 point differential with Shaq starting. That is an 11 point swing.

Do people really believe we are going to find a 12 point improvement between offense and defense in the time we have remaining? I just don't see it.

You don't see how we could eliminate some of those turnovers? 19 turnovers!!! 5 a piece for Stat, O'Neil and Nash. If you can't see how that can improve, well I don't know what to tell ya man.

It's funny how a lot of you were on board with the "it might take a month or two to get this thing to work" but now are ready to call a quits. I mean what did you think "it might take some time" meant? Did you think we would keep winning but not by as much or something?

 

[DeAnna]

To answer the original post, I am still a believer of the trade. It was clear we couldn't win it with Marion we had HUGE problems on the boards and interior defense. This trade could help with those issues. Now, we see that our front line defense is worse than what any of us would have guessed without Marion. Seriously, did anyone think Nash and Bell were that bad?!

Never did like the trade. And yes, we knew Nash and Amare were bad on defense but they would try to hide it. Plus, without Shawn, our perimeter defense sux.

Oh, and never mind the fact that we may not even make the playoffs (and wasn't that the reasoning for bringing in Shaq?)

 

[pokerface]

Oh Marion Marion....He had his chances here. Its not like he didn't have his playoffs to prove himself. He did ok in the playoffs but its not like by keeping him we were a lock on the finals....hardly. The Suns were struggling against good team while he was here.

What are we supposed to...let the west get stronger and we sit on our asses and go with status quo again and again? Maybe we had to take a step back to take two steps forward. If people want to judge this trade prematurely thats their folly. The Suns are owed the rest of the season then the playoffs (if we make it) as a chance to prove themselves.

Shaq is meant for the playoffs mostly. The Suns are still adjusting to him. Besides, this cant be laid entirely on Shaq's doorstep...almost the whole team is not playing up to par.

 

[Chaplin]

Oh Marion Marion....He had his chances here. Its not like he didn't have his playoffs to prove himself. He did ok in the playoffs but its not like by keeping him we were a lock on the finals....hardly. The Suns were struggling against good team while he was here.

What are we supposed to...let the west get stronger and we sit on our asses and go with status quo again and again? Maybe we had to take a step back to take two steps forward. If people want to judge this trade prematurely thats their folly. The Suns are owed the rest of the season then the playoffs (if we make it) as a chance to prove themselves.

Shaq is meant for the playoffs mostly. The Suns are still adjusting to him. Besides, this cant be laid entirely on Shaq's doorstep...almost the whole team is not playing up to par.

Exactly. It's not like we're tearing teams apart when Shaq is on the bench.

 

[pokerface]

Its so easy not to feel bad about dealing Marion. The Suns were kinda lackluster...they only were beating up on soft teams. One could say now we're losing to soft teams but so what...this is a transition period and the ultimate goal is a championship...not just merely being a good team.

 

[Michael]

Huh? Give me one playoff series where Marion was out of this world and won multiple games for us.

Shawn isn't an awful player, but he was NOT GOOD in the playoffs. Have you been sleeping for 9 years?

Conference- Semifinals 2006 vs the Clippers.

Won game 5 with 36+20, had 34 and 30 in games 6 and 7.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Chris, if your point is to say the Suns should have held onto draft picks this summer, or demanded draft picks in return from Miami - then I agree. However, the Suns had to get something for Marion - he was walking this summer or next. And with Marion, the Suns proved they couldn't be champions, over and over.

That is my point I am fine with moving Marion. I just don't like what we got and how bleak our future looks.