Where do you stand on the QB situation?

[wierwolf]

I am definately for Kurt starting. Also with keeping Leinart... he can still grow behind one of if not the best QB. Plus My 3 year old son has Leinarts Jersey... LOl

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I was reading an article on Yahoo I think about Steve DeBerg and the fact he now runs a QB guru shop.

Apparently he works on QB's fundamentals and the article even said that teams provide minimal amounts of that in the NFL even if they do have a QB coach they often times aren't very good or don't do the same teaching he does.

He worked a lot with Romo I think and others but it seems to me that in the NFL of today a team should get a guy like that as their QB coach or better yet simply hire Steve as a consultant and have him work with guys in the offseason.

They've been monkeying with MAtts mechanics and if you're going to do that I think having a guy like DeBerg monitor that or give input wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

I'm not sure Warner really ever gets into that stuff or is even anyone you'd want to model yourself off in terms of that other than his release is quick.

We have a coach:

Jeff Rutledge

Quarterbacks; born January 22, 1957, Birmingham, Ala. Quarterback Alabama 1975-78. Pro quarterback Los Angeles Rams 1979-1981, New York Giants 1982-1989, Washington Redskins 1990-92. College coach: Vanderbilt 1995-2001. Pro coach: Joined Cardinals 2007

 

[moklerman]

Other than they're both left handed there's no comparison.

The numbers say otherwise. I never watched him at Texas, where I know he had a pretty shaky reputation, but his time in the pro's has been about as productive as Leinart's. I'm sure everyone around here thinks much more of Leinart but that's the point. The other 31 teams in the league probably don't. Not when he's putting up the same numbers and has as little experience as Simms.

 

[Duckjake]

The numbers say otherwise. I never watched him at Texas, where I know he had a pretty shaky reputation, but his time in the pro's has been about as productive as Leinart's. I'm sure everyone around here thinks much more of Leinart but that's the point. The other 31 teams in the league probably don't. Not when he's putting up the same numbers and has as little experience as Simms.

I put a lot of my faith in Leinart in how he performed in the Bears Monday night game. People tend to forget that Matt engineered a final drive against a tough defense (5 of 6 passing) to put the Cards in position to win, then Rackers missed the FG. The entire team quit after that game. That Leinart even survived the rest of the season is amazing. IMO that set Matt's development back 2 years.

Also you can't really base anything on Leinart's rookie season because of who was coaching. Warner was mediocre under Green because that idiot couldn't decide who he wanted at QB and didn't start playing really well until he had half a season with Whisenhunt. Numerous other players are performing far better now than they did in 2006.

There's also a big difference between a ruptured spleen and a broken collarbone.

But the final analysis comes from having seen both of them play many times. Leinart just has more talent imo than Simms and I can't see that any NFL team considers them the same.

 

[D-Dogg]

I'm all for bringing back Kurt for a year or 2 and 100% against getting rid of Leinart. When Kurt retires/gets hurt/starts declining in skills and Leinart is gone the Cardinals will be back where we were when Lomax got hurt...searching, hoping, praying and waiting for the QB of the future every offseason. Don't give me the Massachusetts High School hero is going to lead us to the promise land garbage( A guy with 18 TDs & 17 INts as a senior in college? yeah thats who I want to count on).

I'm confident enough in Leinarts abilities to think he can get the job done.

What i really don't understand is why so many on here support Warner but HATE Leinart? Is there any reason as CARDINAL fans that we can't like BOTH players?

:hifive:

 

[Russ Smith]

Thanks I needed a laugh after Sunday.

Chris Simms?!?!?

Come on Duckjake, left handed, white, they're virtually identical players.



Aside from the whole Simms highly touted considered an underachiever his entire college career, Leinart one of the most successful college QB's in years stuff. Other than that, very similar.

 

[Spielman]

What i really don't understand is why so many on here support Warner but HATE Leinart? Is there any reason as CARDINAL fans that we can't like BOTH players?

Well, anybody who hates Leinart is likely to be a Warner supporter by default. Personally, I started out liking Leinart's chances, and while I kind of went back on that this offseason, I've been a big fan of how he's handled this season. I still like his chances.

 

[Spielman]

To me it seems like he wants to put the onus on the Cards management. He said he only wants to play in AZ, but it's up to the Cardinals to make it happen.

It's just a smart message to send in negotiations... if the Cardinals think there's no way he goes anywhere else, they're more likely to lowball him, figuring they've got Leinart and the worst that could happen is that he decides to retire.

 

[moklerman]

But the final analysis comes from having seen both of them play many times. Leinart just has more talent imo than Simms and I can't see that any NFL team considers them the same.

I would probably say Leinart is better than Simms but it's a total unknown for both players at this point. I don't disagree with any of the points you made in defense of Leinart but let's be objective and look at what Simms had to work with in Tampa Bay.

If anything, I would give a slight edge to Simms at this point because he has stuck with it through all the crap that Gruden puts on his QB's, still fighting after a year off, a lot less talent in the passing game and a system that has been a QB career killer in TB. Leinart has, for the most part, been the golden boy, gift draft pick that everyone is pulling for and had Fitz and Boldin to throw to. Simms has been disowned by Texas fans and crapped on by Gruden every step of the way.

Maybe I'm off a little here or there but I still think Simms has had the tougher row to hoe and still put up the same numbers as Leinart and has had flashes of really good QB play. Which reminds me that I have to disagree with you in regards to the amount of value you put on the Chicago game in Leinart's rookie year. There are too many holes that can be poked in that estimation to make it particularly indicitive of anything to me.

First, it was a good game by Leinart and I agree that he kept his cool on the final drive after going cold. But my main problem is that it was too early in his career. TJ Rubley had a great little start to his career when teams didn't think he was a threat and didn't gameplan or have film on him. Now, I don't think Leinart is a TJ Rubley but I can't look at his 2nd NFL start in a vacuum. It is much more concerning to me that he has shown a steady regression since a relatively good start. Just as I don't feel one can put too much stock in that Chicago game, I don't place everything on his start vs. Oakland but I do have concerns about how he handled that situation.

I believe in my bones that that game was his shot and he knew it. It was just one game but over the course of the preseason he showed a habit of starting really slowly and needed extra series to try and get him into some kind of rhythm. On the one hand, it's still a cause for hope that he was able to keep getting back on the horse but on the other hand I don't understand...I mean, realy I don't because I believe in his college resume', why he was so mentally inconsistent.

Back to Simms for just a second, if you do place more value on focusing on a particular game, look at Simms' 3rd start. 3 TD 0 INT 279 yards and a 30 yard TD pass with 1:05 left in the game to beat Washington (5-3 at that time, playoffs and 9th ranked defense) 36-35.

Like I said though, I'm not trying to downtalk Leinart or say that he isn't going to make it some day I just would like to help illustrate that he might be viewed a little too much with Cardinals colored glasses. In this case, what type of draft pick some team might give for him. If I'm a GM, why would I give up any kind of pick with value for Leinart when there's a very comparable lefty on the market in Simms that I could get for cheap and he'd work his butt off to get a bigger contract later?

 

[moklerman]

Come on Duckjake, left handed, white, they're virtually identical players.

Are you guys just completely ignoring the numbers? I don't want to ever hear anyone here complain that the media just has their perceptions of the Cardinals and doesn't actually do their homework if you can't see how closely Simms' and Leinart's NFL numbers compare.

 

[conraddobler]

Are you guys just completely ignoring the numbers? I don't want to ever hear anyone here complain that the media just has their perceptions of the Cardinals and doesn't actually do their homework if you can't see how closely Simms' and Leinart's NFL numbers compare.

I can tolerate your constant attempts to pump up your guy but let's not tear the other guy down.

Context again.

Matt was starting then got hurt then out played by a pro bowl level veteran and so his numbers are a tad misleading because he didn't even play this year at all.

Matt IMO dosen't have enough stats to tell you anything much other than he's not terrible and not great but all of it was basically rookie stats.

Comparing Matt to Chris Simms just leave holes in your credibility, Troy Aikmans stats were bad his rookie year I suppose he sucked too?

Oh his were worse by God, maybe Troy really does suck?

Quick call Canton.

 

[moklerman]

I can tolerate your constant attempts to pump up your guy but let's not tear the other guy down.

You're the one taking it as an insult to Leinart. I happen to think Simms has a decent shot of still becoming a starter in this league and by no means insulting to Leinart to compare the two. Simms chances aren't as good as Leinart's but which QB in the league is in a position to inherit the offense and weapons that he will?

Matt IMO dosen't have enough stats to tell you anything much other than he's not terrible and not great but all of it was basically rookie stats.

But Simms does?

Comparing Matt to Chris Simms just leave holes in your credibility, Troy Aikmans stats were bad his rookie year I suppose he sucked too?

Implying Leinart is still only a rookie doesn't bolster your credibility either. By your rationale, Simms should get the same consideration (15 starts to Leinart's 16).

Simms has played 4 years, Leinart 3
Simms has been in 20 games, Leinart 21.
Simms has 15 starts, Leinart 16.
Simms has 494 pass attempts, Leinart 510.
Simms has 3.094 yards, Leinart 3,458
Simms has 13 career TD's, Leinart 16
Simms has 17 career INT's, Leinart 17

and on and on.

Other than your perception, please tell me how their NFL careers are ridiculously dis-similar.

 

[Russ Smith]

I can tolerate your constant attempts to pump up your guy but let's not tear the other guy down.

Context again.

Matt was starting then got hurt then out played by a pro bowl level veteran and so his numbers are a tad misleading because he didn't even play this year at all.

Matt IMO dosen't have enough stats to tell you anything much other than he's not terrible and not great but all of it was basically rookie stats.

Comparing Matt to Chris Simms just leave holes in your credibility, Troy Aikmans stats were bad his rookie year I suppose he sucked too?

Oh his were worse by God, maybe Troy really does suck?

Quick call Canton.

My whole point is that Simms was a HEAVILY touted kid who went to a top program and was seen largely as a failure. He had a rep as not being able to win the big game. He was good, but he wasn't as good as people expected.

He's done OK in the NFL nothing great, and then he had that devastating injury.

Leinart wasnt even the most touted QB recruit at USC, hell he may have been 3rd.But when he got his chance, he excelled, he won many big games and he showed he had something that Simms seemed to lack in college.

Will that translate to the NFL, who knows, as you said it sure did against the Bears and Chiefs but we lost both games thanks to Rackers. Since then Matt just hasn't played enough in Whiz's system to be sure.

Simms' issues to me have always been with his head not his arm, he just never seemed to come up good in big games.

 

[moklerman]

He's done OK in the NFL nothing great, and then he had that devastating injury.

Again, this illustrates my point. Simms has had a better single game, possible glimpse of potential in the pro's and overall similar production and playing time. Leinart played really well and got the Cardinals in position to kick a winning field goal vs. a playoff caliber team. Simms threw a 30 yard TD, down by 7 with a minute to go against a playoff caliber team. How is one any more significant than the other?

The spleen injury, which I agree was life threatening and scary, was pretty fluke-ish. I'm not sure how it's an identifier of any kind in terms of his overall ability to stay healthy. But again, comparisons are there. Leinart hasn't shown himself to be a model of durability either.

There's no argument that Leinart had a better college career than Simms but college careers only go so far in this type of discussion. David Klinger had a great college career as did White from Oklahoma. I say keep Leinart's(and any other player's) college days in mind but put very little stock in them.

Simms' issues to me have always been with his head not his arm, he just never seemed to come up good in big games.

I don't disagree and am by no means positive of his future. But Leinart's got the same question mark for me. I'm really not sure about the space between his ears. I think I'm like many others and considered one of his true strengths and advantages coming out of college was that regardless of his arm strength, his brain and heart were gong to carry his NFL career. With the variety of decisions he's made and approach to the game and inconsistent behavior over the course of his three NFL years, I have very definite doubts. Not conclusions but my simple faith in those college abilities is gone and he needs to prove them at this stage and on this stage.

The same thing goes for Simms. I'm right there with you on his fortitude. I can't say that if he was in a must win situation or a playoff game that wouldn't be my biggest concern. Is he going to be able to make the big pass like he did vs. Washington his rookie year or is he going to show that it was a fluke and his true colors are what everyone thought they were?

 

[conraddobler]

You want my honest opinion on Matt?

He needs to grow up, he's way way way out of his league in terms of his psyche and I personally don't have a dog in the fight one way or another.

I think that overall he has potential but you just never know, he's got things to work through and it's hard to do that on the bench and Whis is just flat out hard on QB's.

I have no problem with Whis on this issue it's his job on the line, I'd probably hate on rookies too but Matt just basically came out of la la land and stuck his face in a buzz saw.

At this point Matt's just been torn down and his confidence seems to me to be shot in terms of his play and he may never recover from that, it's on him and I don't prersonally care if he does or doesn't other than in terms of how he can help or hinder the team.

Ability wise and even deep down character I think he has it but he could just be one of those types that never reconnects with it because at this point I think he's a bit lost.

Training camp and pre-season should help clear up the picture a lot but eventually you hope he grows up.

 

[conraddobler]

My whole point is that Simms was a HEAVILY touted kid who went to a top program and was seen largely as a failure. He had a rep as not being able to win the big game. He was good, but he wasn't as good as people expected.

He's done OK in the NFL nothing great, and then he had that devastating injury.

Leinart wasnt even the most touted QB recruit at USC, hell he may have been 3rd.But when he got his chance, he excelled, he won many big games and he showed he had something that Simms seemed to lack in college.

Will that translate to the NFL, who knows, as you said it sure did against the Bears and Chiefs but we lost both games thanks to Rackers. Since then Matt just hasn't played enough in Whiz's system to be sure.

Simms' issues to me have always been with his head not his arm, he just never seemed to come up good in big games.

Well there's context to all of this that you have to factor in.

In terms of deep down having it yeah I believe he does, the Bears game sort of proved that to me.

He was a rookie that got drafted by one guy then changed over to another guy who then told him to change his footwork, that he didn't know the offense, that you suck, which I think honestly he did and he got all this blasted in his face plus Warner was there.

I've seen him interviewed afterwards a couple of times and I'm like that dude is so so so lost, it'd be funny if I was a jerk, he's such a nerd really that it's funny, his SB interviews were classic deer in the headlights stuff, which you'd never in a million years expect with his rep.

He's really an interesting guy, he's not what he apears to be and I think he's less confident than people assume he really is and he probably just needs the right mentor to translate Whis into Matt and that's really my take on it.

 

[moklerman]

Ability wise and even deep down character I think he has it but he could just be one of those types that never reconnects with it because at this point I think he's a bit lost.

I guess I'm tooting my horn on this but I think this has been the best case scenario for Leinart. If he's truly come to grips with being patient and learning, biding his time and just being ready(as he apparently has been putting in the time and effort this year) I think he's gong to step right into a great situation and be able to deal with it.

It seems apparent he wasn't as ready as we all hoped/assumed but being able to take it slowly, gradually digesting the system that Whis and Haley have put in, completely knowing it when it's his turn is a much better scenario than force feeding all of that new information as well as taking a beating that every young QB takes.

I still have pretty high hope for him and being able to throw to Fitz will mask a lot of the issues he might have when he gets his next chance.

 

[Russ Smith]

I had to un ignore you to respond since I keep seeing replies to your response so you understand why I didn't directly respond to your post.

Leinart threw for 405 yards in his 7th NFL start, SIX weeks after the infamous Bears game and the implosion after where they fired the OC and the QB coach became the OC and Matt looked shell shocked for a few weeks not having his coach on the sideline and the team just falling apart all around because Green was so clearly a lame duck.

Simms didn't really approach that level of performance yet. He has one 300 yard passing game in his career and had 3 picks, no TD's in that game, rating of under 50 against Altanta. He had 3 picks no TD's the week before that too rating of 30(against the Ravens). Those were both 2006, 05 top yard game was 285, had 2 TD' 2 picks. 05 he was comparable in performance to Leinart in 06, except Matt was a rookie in an imploding team, and Simms was in his 2nd year in Tampa.

Simms really hasn't been the same since the injury, which is part of why he has thrown exactly 2 passes in the NFL since that injury. Leinart has certainly had some injuries but not anything close to Simms, after he got hurt he didn't play in any of the next 28 games before appearing in the finale of the 07 season.

 

[moklerman]

He was a rookie that got drafted by one guy then changed over to another guy who then told him to change his footwork, that he didn't know the offense, that you suck, which I think honestly he did and he got all this blasted in his face plus Warner was there.

I think this is a good point and one that was by design from Whis. What has been the question mark surrounding Leinart? His head and attitude. I think Whis purposely laid it on extra thick, pushing those buttons to test him. I don't think Whis has anything against Leinart but I do think Whis, player psychology being what I consider his greatest strength, has had a plan in regards to developing Leinart.

The footwork thing, I think, wasn't so much about the actual footwork as it was Whis trying to see how his QB is going to buy into what he wants him to do. Would he fight it and try to do it his way or was he willing to be coached? Naming Leinart the starter right after the season was another piece of the process. How would he handle it and approach the offseason? Some good, some bad there but overall, I think Whis has been working on these little pieces here and there so when Leinart is forced to take it all on again, he'll be ready.

Not once has Whis spoken negatively or wavered in his support of Leinart. Whis is a smart **** and I think he has a plan. Look what Warner was before Whis and where he is now.

 

[conraddobler]

I had to un ignore you to respond since I keep seeing replies to your response so you understand why I didn't directly respond to your post.

Leinart threw for 405 yards in his 7th NFL start, SIX weeks after the infamous Bears game and the implosion after where they fired the OC and the QB coach became the OC and Matt looked shell shocked for a few weeks not having his coach on the sideline and the team just falling apart all around because Green was so clearly a lame duck.

Simms didn't really approach that level of performance yet. He has one 300 yard passing game in his career and had 3 picks, no TD's in that game, rating of under 50 against Altanta. He had 3 picks no TD's the week before that too rating of 30(against the Ravens). Those were both 2006, 05 top yard game was 285, had 2 TD' 2 picks. 05 he was comparable in performance to Leinart in 06, except Matt was a rookie in an imploding team, and Simms was in his 2nd year in Tampa.

Simms really hasn't been the same since the injury, which is part of why he has thrown exactly 2 passes in the NFL since that injury. Leinart has certainly had some injuries but not anything close to Simms, after he got hurt he didn't play in any of the next 28 games before appearing in the finale of the 07 season.

That's a very good way of building the case for the distinction IMO.

The situations are pretty key when you have that limited amount of data to go on.

 

[moklerman]

Simms really hasn't been the same since the injury, which is part of why he has thrown exactly 2 passes in the NFL since that injury. Leinart has certainly had some injuries but not anything close to Simms, after he got hurt he didn't play in any of the next 28 games before appearing in the finale of the 07 season.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing. I think one could pick good games and bad games for both and neither has played much in their last couple of seasons.

I'm not sure how Simms could be judged since his injury since he's been buried on the Buc's depth chart(seemingly out of spite since Gruden and Simms did NOT get along). Maybe he'll never be truly healthy again but that's not the impression I get especially since he's still getting looks from around the league.

But let me restate, I'm not demeaning Leinart or lobbying for Simms. I just think their respective careers make them very comparable when it comes to what others might perceive Leinart's possible value might be in a trade. Leinart will get a lot more benefit of doubt because of who he took a backseat to but has Simms really had a system, support and weapons to be fairly judged? I want to see him get a chance with a team that suits his abilities and with a coach that will coach him and support him. I don't think he got that with Gruden.

Gruden called him a ***** and refused to trade him or release him out of spite. Very different that what Leinart's looking at or had to deal with.

 

[conraddobler]

I think this is a good point and one that was by design from Whis. What has been the question mark surrounding Leinart? His head and attitude. I think Whis purposely laid it on extra thick, pushing those buttons to test him. I don't think Whis has anything against Leinart but I do think Whis, player psychology being what I consider his greatest strength, has had a plan in regards to developing Leinart.

The footwork thing, I think, wasn't so much about the actual footwork as it was Whis trying to see how his QB is going to buy into what he wants him to do. Would he fight it and try to do it his way or was he willing to be coached? Naming Leinart the starter right after the season was another piece of the process. How would he handle it and approach the offseason? Some good, some bad there but overall, I think Whis has been working on these little pieces here and there so when Leinart is forced to take it all on again, he'll be ready.

Not once has Whis spoken negatively or wavered in his support of Leinart. Whis is a smart **** and I think he has a plan. Look what Warner was before Whis and where he is now.

I know Whis is lethal on rookie QB's ask Ben about what he thinks of Whis.

It's not all roses either check out Ben this time compared to the last SB and see what I mean in terms of stats, the pick was a fluke tipped ball otherwise he played very well this time.

Whis just torments them and maybe it is a plan to toughen the guy up but I don't think Matt is the type that's ever going to really respond to that sort of thing and that's my point.

Maybe if Haley leaves and there's a new guy in between the two it might resolve itself a little better over time but again the whole point is that with Matt's contract I doubt we have time because I think he'll try and jump ship before he redoes his contract to get away from Whis, that's just purely MO.

 

[moklerman]

I know Whis is lethal on rookie QB's ask Ben about what he thinks of Whis.

I'd like to be open to this argument but unfortunately, Ben's an idiot. I would take Whis' word over his by far. That doesn't mean I disagree with you about him possibly being too hard on his rookie QB's but using Ben as an example holds no water for me. The way Whis has handled the many other situations makes me think he's got a good approach and a valid reason for doing what he does.

Leinart has certainly seemed to buy into what's being done and made an effort to be a professional under Whis so I say stay the course. Most backup QB's are the one's that will take the heat from the coach until they become the starter. Then it will be the next backup's turn to get yelled at.

 

[Shogun]

I'm all for bringing back Kurt for a year or 2 and 100% against getting rid of Leinart. When Kurt retires/gets hurt/starts declining in skills and Leinart is gone the Cardinals will be back where we were when Lomax got hurt...searching, hoping, praying and waiting for the QB of the future every offseason. Don't give me the Massachusetts High School hero is going to lead us to the promise land garbage( A guy with 18 TDs & 17 INts as a senior in college? yeah thats who I want to count on).

I'm confident enough in Leinarts abilities to think he can get the job done.

What i really don't understand is why so many on here support Warner but HATE Leinart? Is there any reason as CARDINAL fans that we can't like BOTH players?

This.

And WOW @ the Leinart/Simms comparison.

 

[conraddobler]

I'm not really sure what you're arguing. I think one could pick good games and bad games for both and neither has played much in their last couple of seasons.

I'm not sure how Simms could be judged since his injury since he's been buried on the Buc's depth chart(seemingly out of spite since Gruden and Simms did NOT get along). Maybe he'll never be truly healthy again but that's not the impression I get especially since he's still getting looks from around the league.

But let me restate, I'm not demeaning Leinart or lobbying for Simms. I just think their respective careers make them very comparable when it comes to what others might perceive Leinart's possible value might be in a trade. Leinart will get a lot more benefit of doubt because of who he took a backseat to but has Simms really had a system, support and weapons to be fairly judged? I want to see him get a chance with a team that suits his abilities and with a coach that will coach him and support him. I don't think he got that with Gruden.

Gruden called him a ***** and refused to trade him or release him out of spite. Very different that what Leinart's looking at or had to deal with.

I was suprised to hear some of the things I've heard about Gruden, I figured more people would be going after him but it seems he's burnt some bridges, the little I've heard about it.

No Matt hasn't had to deal with that, I said he needed to grow up, Whis IMO hasn't even been that hard on him but look where Matt came from and he flourished in that enviroment.

I don't think he needs all of that but he needs a tweak of that to get some confidence back is all I was thinking.

Certain coaches just take to certain players, it's entirely possible the situation just isn't right here but Matt has to realize that it's not that bad here and just adjust a bit or get his own guru to work with him on the side or something.