Where do you stand on the QB situation?

[conraddobler]

I'd like to be open to this argument but unfortunately, Ben's an idiot. I would take Whis' word over his by far. That doesn't mean I disagree with you about him possibly being too hard on his rookie QB's but using Ben as an example holds no water for me. The way Whis has handled the many other situations makes me think he's got a good approach and a valid reason for doing what he does.

Leinart has certainly seemed to buy into what's being done and made an effort to be a professional under Whis so I say stay the course. Most backup QB's are the one's that will take the heat from the coach until they become the starter. Then it will be the next backup's turn to get yelled at.

That's funny you say that.

I've worked on jobs with bosses like that, you're sure they hate you then one day they stop yelling and never really do it again but someone else gets it and if you've never seen that and chances are Matt hasn't then you could just think he hates you.

Whis never gets down on Warner much even though I've argued he should, on that interception he was straight down the line we should of tackled the guy.

Matt's probably saying to himself, um... you'd have killed me for that.... jeeezsus....

 

[moklerman]

Leinart threw for 405 yards in his 7th NFL start,

1 TD, 2INT and fumble too.

Simms didn't really approach that level of yardage yet. Leinart followed that up with 186, 232, 214 in '06. He has one 300 yard passing game in his career and had 3 picks, no TD's in that game, rating of under 50 against Altanta. He had 3 picks no TD's the week before that too rating of 30(against the Ravens). Those were both 2006, 05 top yard game was 285, had 2 TD' 2 picks. In Leinart's 2nd year he had ratings of 41, 85, 52, 71, 47. 05 he was comparable in performance to Leinart in 06, except Matt was a rookie in an imploding team, and Simms was in his 2nd year in Tampa. Leinart's had five 2 int games and never passed for 3 TD's

Tit for tat. I think they're very commparable.

 

[Duckjake]

Are you guys just completely ignoring the numbers? I don't want to ever hear anyone here complain that the media just has their perceptions of the Cardinals and doesn't actually do their homework if you can't see how closely Simms' and Leinart's NFL numbers compare.

I always ignore the numbers and look at the player/games*. You do need to know that I was a big supporter of Simms when he was at Texas and felt he got an unfair rap from fans because the only big games Texas played were ones they lost. If Texas won it suddenly wasn't a big game.

But I've watched them both play for several years and just think Leinart is better and has more upside especially when you consider Simms injury.

Of course with QBs you just never know. They can go years doing nothing and then suddenly start playing well. Look at Warner, 6 years of struggling (for various reasons) before taking off again under Whisenhunt. Trent Green did basically nothing for years before turning it on in KC. On the other hand they can look great for awhile and then go south. Just a really tough position to predict future performance.

*For example look how the Philly, MInn, and NE games skewed the stats for our run defense. People were surprised after looking at the numbers at how the Cards stopped the run during the playoffs. But if you had watched them all season it was no surprise to you at all.

 

[moklerman]

I always ignore the numbers and look at the player/games*.

I don't think either can be relied up exclusively. I happen to put some stock in that he's a QB's kid. It sounds kind of silly but I would, at whatever small level, add that as a check mark on the plus side. Of the one's that I can think of, it seems that growing up in that environment has helped in success if for no other reason, familiarity and expectations.

And I do look beyond the stat's which is why I think Simms, like his college days, is being unfairly judged/perceived. He has shown some pretty good ability in less than ideal situations. Put him in a better situation and then let's evaluate.

 

[FArting]

I want Kurt to come back.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I didn't want to post in this thread on purpose but now I have to. I have changed my tune on this since the Super Bowl and although I want to see Matt play and play well its hard to justify letting Kurt go at this point.

My answer to this question is bring back Kurt on an 2 year on a primarly incentive basis and keep Matt for when he inevitably gets hurt next year. Kurt has earned the right to start and getting to the Super Bowl is damn hard. Kurt has shown he can take us there and I want to ride that pony until he falls apart.

Problem is no one knows when that could be.

So all these goofballs on the trade Matt bandwagon need to wake up. Its like a personal hatred for #7 because the value we could realistically get back for him combined with the value he provides as a back up is not comensurate with the "Ship him out of here" mindset that many poster on here have. It has to be personal.

I hate to tell you this but the average age of Matt bashers is not a coincidence. Many of the older fans just see "hollywood" and liked it better when guys had to trudge in the snow up hill two ways. I can't find one person under the age of 35 that thinks Matt hasn't at least shown something and is worth keeping around.

Thats the logical answer.

I just got to laugh when I read some of the Warnephiles posts. I mean I see where the POV of wanting to keep KW comes from and I have bent over backwards complimenting Kurt and what he did this post season. But the venom they spew forth at any other logic then "Kurt Warner is god" and how incredulous they all are that any one would question Kurt is borderline creepy.

Him and Farve have to break world records for "most homo-erotic comments made" and "following of grown men who are in love with them"....

 

[moklerman]

So, if Arizona is offered a #1 and a starting caliber RB for Leinart, do you do the trade?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

So, if Arizona is offered a #1 and a starting caliber RB for Leinart, do you do the trade?

Mokler we are not even dealing in reality here with that propsal. So I guess it would depend on where the pick is and who the back is. If your telling me we get a Top 5 pick and Clinton Portis then yeah I do it

The reality is Leinart's actual worth to the Cardinals is MORE then what his worth on the trade market is.

 

[Duckjake]

And I do look beyond the stat's which is why I think Simms, like his college days, is being unfairly judged/perceived. He has shown some pretty good ability in less than ideal situations. Put him in a better situation and then let's evaluate.

I agree with this 100% but not on NFL teams thinking that Leinart and Simms have the same value right now.

I thought Simms was a steal as a third round pick. Sadly he went to QB Purgatory in Tampa. Had he gone to a team that actually knew how to spell offense his entire career might have been different.

Certain death for QBs: Tampa, Chicago, Cleveland and Baltimore. Cleveland,Tampa and Chicago have had 7 different QBs as their leading Passer in the last 10 years. Baltimore 6.

 

[moklerman]

Mokler we are not even dealing in reality here with that propsal. So I guess it would depend on where the pick is and who the back is. If your telling me we get a Top 5 pick and Clinton Portis then yeah I do it

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I don't want to trade Leinart or even get rid of him at all but what about KC? They trade down(seems like a very plausible Pioli move based on New England's history) and pick up a lower 1 and and extra 2 or something and trade their new #1 and Johnson to Arizona for Arizona's #1 and #2 and Leinart and Johnson who's desperate to get out of KC, wants to go to a winner and Arizona has a good RB for the next two years.

Sure, it'll never happen but wouldn't that be a trade worth considering that has nothing to do with Leinart hatred or Warner infatuation?

 

[Skkorpion]

So now it begins. I choose to trust Whisenhunt to make the correct QB decisions.

Until that direction is cemented, I continue to believe Matt Leinart will never be a superior NFL starting QB.

 

[Duckjake]

So now it begins. I choose to trust Whisenhunt to make the correct QB decisions.

Until that direction is cemented, I continue to believe Matt Leinart will never be a superior NFL starting QB.

How old is the USC-Notre Dame rivalry?

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm not really sure what you're arguing. I think one could pick good games and bad games for both and neither has played much in their last couple of seasons.

I'm not sure how Simms could be judged since his injury since he's been buried on the Buc's depth chart(seemingly out of spite since Gruden and Simms did NOT get along). Maybe he'll never be truly healthy again but that's not the impression I get especially since he's still getting looks from around the league.

But let me restate, I'm not demeaning Leinart or lobbying for Simms. I just think their respective careers make them very comparable when it comes to what others might perceive Leinart's possible value might be in a trade. Leinart will get a lot more benefit of doubt because of who he took a backseat to but has Simms really had a system, support and weapons to be fairly judged? I want to see him get a chance with a team that suits his abilities and with a coach that will coach him and support him. I don't think he got that with Gruden.

Gruden called him a ***** and refused to trade him or release him out of spite. Very different that what Leinart's looking at or had to deal with.

I'm not arguing I'm saying that you're looking at it differently and I think incorrectly.

If Matt wanted to be traded and was "interviewing" for other teams he has a very simple answer for why haven't you played much the last 2 years, Kurt Warner, and a shoulder injury which I'm healed from.

IN the same interviews with Simms what is he going to answer, my coach hates me? I know Gruden has a rep but losing the job to Warner the way he played is not exactly comparable to losing the job in Tampa Bay. IN the last 3 seasons, Simms has played in 4 games, and one of those was a 1-2 mopup game. Since he's been hurt, he's been invisible.

So I think it's dead wrong to assert that Leinart's market value in a trade is comparable to Simms, people will have questions about Matt too but not nearly the same as what they would have with Simms.

I'm not advocating trading Matt anyways I think it makes no sense to do so unless we need the money to sign someone else and I don't really see that happening.

I'm just saying right now his market value far exceeds Simms' on the trade market. People were not sure Simms would ever be able to play again after that spleenectomy deal.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Here is the real KEY question in this commentary. No matter what you trade Matt for - te me who is backing up Kurt next year then. And don't just list off some name because we know the probabiity of Kurt going two years in a row competey heathy is close to nil.

Whomever the back up is going to likely pay some some meaningful games for us next year.

I'll take my chances with #7 thank you.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

So now it begins. I choose to trust Whisenhunt to make the correct QB decisions.

Until that direction is cemented, I continue to believe Matt Leinart will never be a superior NFL starting QB.

We know he handed ND their butts three years in a row but I would think time would heal all wounds Skorp.

 

[mjb21aztd]

I can't wait to see what Leinart can do, but I agree with most of you Warner almost got the cards a sb trophy and I believe he is our best shot at atleast having a shot at making the sb again. DAMN YOU HOLMES

 

[moklerman]

I'm not arguing I'm saying that you're looking at it differently and I think incorrectly.

No, I actually considered that as part of the comparison. Leinart hasn't played for almost 2 years other than spot duty and his time as a sidekick next to Warner surprising everyone with his 2 minute offense heroics.

I think both guys have a lot to prove and some work to do to get back into the starters club. But like you said, I'm also not advocating trading Leinart, in part because I don't think the Cardinals would really get much for him. I just don't think the teams around the league would view him as so much better than Simms that they would pony up a decent price for Leinart when Simms is an UFA.

I like Leinart better than Simms but if I was a GM I would take a cheap flier on Simms and see what he's currently capable of and spend the money on building around him rather than giving up whatever picks it would take and then dealing with Leinart's contract.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I didn't want to post in this thread on purpose but now I have to. I have changed my tune on this since the Super Bowl and although I want to see Matt play and play well its hard to justify letting Kurt go at this point.

My answer to this question is bring back Kurt on an 2 year on a primarly incentive basis and keep Matt for when he inevitably gets hurt next year. Kurt has earned the right to start and getting to the Super Bowl is damn hard. Kurt has shown he can take us there and I want to ride that pony until he falls apart.

Problem is no one knows when that could be.

So all these goofballs on the trade Matt bandwagon need to wake up. Its like a personal hatred for #7 because the value we could realistically get back for him combined with the value he provides as a back up is not comensurate with the "Ship him out of here" mindset that many poster on here have. It has to be personal.

I hate to tell you this but the average age of Matt bashers is not a coincidence. Many of the older fans just see "hollywood" and liked it better when guys had to trudge in the snow up hill two ways. I can't find one person under the age of 35 that thinks Matt hasn't at least shown something and is worth keeping around.

Thats the logical answer.

I just got to laugh when I read some of the Warnephiles posts. I mean I see where the POV of wanting to keep KW comes from and I have bent over backwards complimenting Kurt and what he did this post season. But the venom they spew forth at any other logic then "Kurt Warner is god" and how incredulous they all are that any one would question Kurt is borderline creepy.

Him and Farve have to break world records for "most homo-erotic comments made" and "following of grown men who are in love with them"....

None of this was appropriate. 1 week break Az's Finest.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I think Leinart is far from a bust and if we where able to keep Warner for at least another year...Leinart is not a bad backup to have for next season one bit

 

[Duckjake]

No, I actually considered that as part of the comparison. Leinart hasn't played for almost 2 years other than spot duty and his time as a sidekick next to Warner surprising everyone with his 2 minute offense heroics.

One very important thing we have to take into consideration in looking at past performance by our QBs is who we have at WR. Warner himself said he had to learn that "open" for Larry Fitzgerald is different than for other WRs. Indicating that Kurt learned he could throw the ball to our guys even though they were "covered" and still get a completion.

It is something I believe Leinart never really learned to do and once Warner did the passing offense took off like none we'd ever seen before.

If nothing else we should keep Leinart just to play against Seattle. The Cards are 3-0 in games where Leinart has played against the Seahawks and Matt is 49-79 for 614 yards with 3TDs and 2 INTs.

 

[Rats]

Leinart should restructure his deal. I do not see any rational to trading him if he does restructure. In the NFL you need 2 qb. Kurt was a tough SOB the last year and a half with the elbow and the way he was beat up this season. But you need two competant Qb on the roster and in Matt and Kurt we have guys that are very effective. Any rational for trading Matt is really not in the gameplan unless we get a Hershal Walker type offer, which will not happen. Kurt is the guy for one more year if he wants to be. Matt should do everything he can to beat him out and get on the field so he can throw to Larry and Q. Those guys make a good qb great and a great Qb a HOF type Qb. Matt just needs to give 110% and he will be running this team when Warner is done with out missing a beat. That is all a Cards fan really needs to know. I do not get the Warner vs Leinart thing. We scored with both of them on this team. They are both top rung NFL Qb's.

 

[Hollywood]

You play the one that gives you the best chance to win. In my opinion that is Warner. Untill Matt shows that he is better than Warner you "dance with who brung ya". Not to mention that sitting on the bench and getting mentored by Warner one more year isn't going to hurt one bit.

 

[Russ Smith]

1 TD, 2INT and fumble too.
Tit for tat. I think they're very commparable.

Well they're not but we don't agree on anything so that shouldn't surprise me.

The point is nobody in the NFL even knows if Simms can physically hold up to being a starting QB in the NFL again after his injury, while there are questions about how good matt will be, nobody questions why he hasn't played much recently, it's entirely because of Warner, not health(this season).

Matt's rookie year started off exceptionally well, when the whole demote OC put the QB coach at OC crap started, Matt struggled. Remember he'd gone from rookie backup to starter when Warner fell apart with fumbles, then he's playing quite well but his kicker keeps blowing games. Then his coach goes looney tunes on a post game interview and then decides to blame everything on the OC Rowen.

I don't think we should be surprised that Matt struggled in that situation, remember as poorly as he played in that stretch it was CONSIDERABLY better than Warner had played to get himself benched. That team was a mess, Green was a lameduck, nobody knew if Rowen was right for the job, it was a complete disaster waiting to happen.

Then in came Whiz and completely changed things and obviously put a lot of pressure on matt to try and correct issues that should have been corrected either in college, or by Green, Rowen and Kruczek.

 

[moklerman]

The point is nobody in the NFL even knows if Simms can physically hold up to being a starting QB in the NFL again after his injury, while there are questions about how good matt will be, nobody questions why he hasn't played much recently, it's entirely because of Warner, not health(this season).

Leinart's had season ending injuries twice in his last 6 starts. My guess is there is a real question as to his durability as well.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone read anything regarding Simms' spleen injury? I hadn't really followed it and my impression was that it was a fluke, although very dangerous, injury that once healed he would be at the same risk as anyone else of getting another one. Or is it like a concussion where he's more susceptible?

Matt's rookie year started off exceptionally well, when the whole demote OC put the QB coach at OC crap started, Matt struggled.

I don't recall which game it was that Rowen was fired. After KC and Chicago, the next five games Leinart was 97/185 52% 1,214 6.5 ypa 5TD 3INT 4FUM 67.2 rating. They really reduced his role in the St. Louis game and he did fine, had a good game in Seattle then had a bad game in Denver before getting hurt vs. San Francisco.

I don't think we should be surprised that Matt struggled in that situation, remember as poorly as he played in that stretch it was CONSIDERABLY better than Warner had played to get himself benched.

I wouldn't word it quite that way. We all know the fumbling was an issue but Warner was still outperforming Leinart. I'm not saying he should have remained the starter but one could see the ability he still had if he could only hold onto the ball.

Then in came Whiz and completely changed things and obviously put a lot of pressure on matt to try and correct issues that should have been corrected either in college, or by Green, Rowen and Kruczek.

All of what you said can be looked at from the other side though. Leinart and the team continued to struggle so Rowen was canned, Leinart got hurt, Leinart admittedly didn't work as hard as he should have and couldn't pick up enough of Whis' system to stay on the field, five partial games into the season he gets hurt again, gets named the starter after the offseason and then gets himself in an embarassing situation that disappoints his coach who's trying give him the starting job and then when it's all on the line, he has a horrible preseason game.

You argue that it was Green's fault, Rackers fault and Whis' fault but I just can't agree that the majority of Leinart's struggles and performance on the field are to blame on so many others. He's been given plenty of chances and while some of them have been less than ideal, such as the Rowen situation, coming off the bench as a rookie, a new system in '07, etc. I think the timing of his own poor decisions has held him back more.

But I still want the Cardinals to keep him and think he'll eventually be a starter.

 

[Skkorpion]

Re my position on Matt Leinart. It seems popular these days to attribute my doubts about Leinart to a visceral dislike of players who beat up on Notre Dame. If that were true, I wouldn''t be left with much of a pool of players to like since Notre Dame has dwelled in mediocrity for a long time now.

I find the entire insinuation insulting but am forced to deal with it.

A few reminders of my stated stances on Notre Dame players: Wanted nothing to do with or disliked Mike Gandy, Julius Jones, Tom Zbikowski. Liked Jeff Faine, Brady Quinn, Victor Abiamiri and John Carlson.

Favorite USC players: All-time -- Ronnie Lott and Ricky Bell. Recently, Lendale White. Almost every RB they produce. USC is RB University to me.

Back to Matt Leinart. Has the brains and physical tools to be a good pro QB. Too fragile physically. Too spoiled mentally making him lazy in preparation. When forced by Whisenhunt and circumstances, Matt has improved study habits and workout regimen to get stronger.

People mature at differing rates. Some never do grow up. Nobody knows how Leinart will mature. I trust Whisenhunt and Graves to make the right call. If they think Leinart is our future and go with him, I'll be ecstatic. We'll soon know.