Who do you side with in this debacle? Owners or Players?

Who do you side with?


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WildBB

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They would make more in terms of cap, benefits, and less practices. Its just that the cap wouldn't grow as fast as it did in the last CBA. The Owners even agreed to the Unions Cap demands in year three(or four forget which) of 161 million.

Salary cap in 2009 was $127 million. So over a 4 year period players would be getting a raise of over 30% in 4 years. Who here would love a job that guaranteed you a raise of 30%+ over 4 years.

Don't confuse getting a few percentage points less of the pie with making less money, because the players would actually be getting a pretty hefty raise.

That's reasonable, considering the financial landscape the past few years. I was under the impression that players were getting their finances cut under the amount of the last CBA.

I would like to see some benefits come to the fans who support it year after year. Like we won't see any ticket hikes from pricing designated from this year forward as long as you retain your seats.
 

Buckybird

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The players are pretty happy to play under the current agreement so I have a hard time saying that they are at fault, however I think that they are painfully wrong in what their positions actually are for a given team. They are employees, simple as that. They are the engine that drives the league, but the owners buy the bus, install the engine, pay the mechanics, and hire the driver. The owners foot the bills when something isn't working right, while the lpayers just look out for themselves.

I agree. I'm with the owners all the way on this one. IMO when the players want more from the owners, the owners want more from the TV networks & sponsers which makes us the fans pay the price. Eventually ESPN, Fox & NBC will tell the NFL enough is enough.
 
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40yearfan

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But they are taking money from the players. The players were perfectly happy to continue to play under the old percentages. Now the NFL ownership basically wants a 1/8th reduction in wages.

You see...

If your company came to you and said "We are reducing wages by 12.5%" across the board take it or leave it, you could leave it.

That is free enterprise. That is not the NFL.

The NFL is 32 seperate companies working together to accomplish that wage decrease. That is what violates Federal Law.

Chris, they are not asking the current players to take a paycut. All existing contracts will be honored. Going forward, the pool might have fewer dollars in it, depending on future TV contracts, but each player will still negotiate his own contract. No one has said anything about lowering wages other than the NFLPA and they are not being totally honest.
 

PDXChris

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Where is the option for both. I feel there is enough blame to go around.
 

CardsFan88

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Neither side really. But I'd go with the ones that ARE the product, and take all the real risk (see Dave Duerson).
(the nfl gets how much from tv contracts per team = little risk)

So if pressed I'd say players, but overall it's neither. Millionaires vs Billionaires is something that thousand-aires or hundred-aires shouldn't care about.
 

Fitz Rulz

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I'd love to see some sort of a debate between owners x players on the issue
I don't quite understand the whole issue. sometimes it's about TV money, cap, 18 game, rookie cap

any has a link to the issue list with owners/players responce of each point?
 

kerouac9

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The fault of this lies at the hands of the owners though I side with their reasoning. The current model was unsustainable, and the owners caved the last time this came up. They had to make a stand sometime and this was as good of time as any.

The players were prepared for litigation as soon as they hired a rep who had no stake in professional football. The moment they did this a work stoppage was inevitable.

Someone needs to explain simple business to these players. Owners have more of the risk, more money invested, and therefore get the majority of the profits. The players are employees and nothing more. They don't build stadiums, they don't manage personnel, and they don't feel the financial windfall when sales are down. Yet somewhere along the line they have gotten the idea that they are special, and they really aren't.

This should have happened during the last negotiation so it is the owners fault for putting themselves in this position in the first place, but it is the players that really need some perspective.

How is the current agreement "unsustainable"? This is not the NBA or NHL pre-lockout, where teams are actively losing money. The Green Bay Packers, the smallest-market team in the NFL, still made a profit last year in the face of historic financial collapse. Everyone makes money in the current arrangement; there's nothing in business law that says that businesses are guaranteed a certain level of growth in profit every year.

I think you should tell Kevin Everett who assumes the most risk in the NFL. Or Dave Duerson's family. I'm sorry that Jerry Jones elected to put up $1.2 billion of taxpayer-guaranteed money for his stadium, but no one required him to do that, either.

The real issue right now is between the small-market teams and the large-market teams. The NFL teams were unhappy with the revenue-sharing arrangements that were part of the last CBA, and so they canceled the damned thing rather than put their own houses in order. The Jerry Richardsons (Carolina) and Ralph Wilsons (Buffalo Bills) and Mike Browns (Cincy) of the NFL can't compete with the growth of their more profitable bretheren, and are trying to take that out on the players.

There's no working around the League trying to double their share of the spoils off the top, while also putting their players' bodies at risk for a longer schedule without decreasing the amount of time required for a full NFL pension.

I'm predisposed to side with labor because I used to be in a union, but I'm not sure how you can compare the financial risk of ownership where profits are essentially guaranteed under the current arrangement (just not as much as ownership would like) to the physical risks the players take every time they step on the field.

Anyone who thinks that the NFL can field replacement players and have close to the product that we as fans have enjoyed didn't see Max Hall play last season. He was an NFL player. Do you really want to see guys who couldn't make the roster ahead of Max Hall as starters?
 

Buckybird

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I'd love to see some sort of a debate between owners x players on the issue
I don't quite understand the whole issue. sometimes it's about TV money, cap, 18 game, rookie cap

any has a link to the issue list with owners/players responce of each point?

Sirius NFL radio said they would try & get Goodell & Smith together on their program next week to dicuss the matter publicly.
 

Syracusecards

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The owners caused this mess when they agreed to a deal they never wanted. However, D Smith clearly had no intention of doing a deal b/c he wants all the press and pub, so the players are equally at fault for hiring that d-bag.
 

Buckybird

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there's nothing in business law that says that businesses are guaranteed a certain level of growth in profit every year.

I think you should tell Kevin Everett who assumes the most risk in the NFL. Or Dave Duerson's family. I'm sorry that Jerry Jones elected to put up $1.2 billion of taxpayer-guaranteed money for his stadium, but no one required him to do that, either.

1) Then why should the players get guaranteed growth in their piece of the pie every year? They were supposedly doing that in the last CBA if I'm not mistaken with teams having to spend a minimum amount on the cap & up to a certain dollar point. The cap increased what $10 mil a yr/per team a year if I'm not mistaken

2) I repesct the players putting their future well being on the line, especially in later years but they have a choice for another profession & income. I'm quite sure 95% of them couldnt find jobs in the everyday world that pays them what the NFL does.

3) A new stadium IMO is part of what the fans want & has helped grow the game, which adds $ to everyone associated with that team & at some point has to be addressed by every NFL team.

4) Tell me K9, how much financial risk is shared by the players? I'll tell you...zero!!!
 
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NJCardFan

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I don't side with either. And to tell the truth, I could care less about this lockout. Life will go on.
 

NJCardFan

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This is NOT negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate AGAINST what you've already negotiated in the past w/o some MAJOR concessions being made by owners and managers, towards players in other area's. Such as retirement benefits and health coverage guarantees.
Question: Why should anyone making a minimum 6 figure salary need retirement benefits and health coverage provided for them? I contribute to both my own health insurance and my own pension. If I want more of a retirement package, I'm free to do that on my own. And I don't make near the money they make. Am I any less important? I work in an environment that at a moment's notice I could be seriously injured or even killed but I don't scream, scratch, and cry for anything more than what I'm getting now and I feel fortunate for what I have. Point is, this is nothing more than millionaire players quibbling with billionaire owners over BS. This isn't the 50's, 60's, or 70's anymore where players were considered real blue collared workers, the kind who in the off season had to get actual jobs and any player who has any kind of a career should have a comfortable retirement if they aren't stupid with their money. If a player only manages a year or 2, then they should have a college degree to fall back on. If they don't, it's not the fault of the owners. There's plenty of greed to go around here.
 
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lobo

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It isn't that simple. Since 1890, there have been laws in place to prevent businesses from conspiring to prevent a free market. Businesses can not artificially fix prices or wages.

The NFL is 32 individual businesses. By locking out the players, they are automatically guilty of our Anti Trust laws. This is why the players are suing and it is why they will win.

The suit will not be against the league but against each team..no more demaurice smith as they will bring in the big labor lawyers...what is somewhat funny in a way is the top guns from the players in the suit each make about 18 million usd a year or more. they will have to testify. by the way the last time the union decertified it actually sped things up toward a settlement...SO maybe there is a little silver lining behind this debacle.
 

Chris_Sanders

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by the way the last time the union decertified it actually sped things up toward a settlement...SO maybe there is a little silver lining behind this debacle.

Yep that is the way I see it going as well. The NFL will likely be ordered to reveal it's books and then a settlement will magically happening benefitting one side or the other.
 

PACardsFan

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I will always side with Ownership over Unions. It's funny that Owners are being forced to open their books, yet the top brass of these unions are filthy rich beyond words. I feel bad for the rank and file, because the Union heads keep all the money. Let's force these unions to open their books!! Let the free markets work & good riddance to Unions period.
 

Chopper0080

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How is the current agreement "unsustainable"? This is not the NBA or NHL pre-lockout, where teams are actively losing money. The Green Bay Packers, the smallest-market team in the NFL, still made a profit last year in the face of historic financial collapse. Everyone makes money in the current arrangement; there's nothing in business law that says that businesses are guaranteed a certain level of growth in profit every year.

I think you should tell Kevin Everett who assumes the most risk in the NFL. Or Dave Duerson's family. I'm sorry that Jerry Jones elected to put up $1.2 billion of taxpayer-guaranteed money for his stadium, but no one required him to do that, either.

The real issue right now is between the small-market teams and the large-market teams. The NFL teams were unhappy with the revenue-sharing arrangements that were part of the last CBA, and so they canceled the damned thing rather than put their own houses in order. The Jerry Richardsons (Carolina) and Ralph Wilsons (Buffalo Bills) and Mike Browns (Cincy) of the NFL can't compete with the growth of their more profitable bretheren, and are trying to take that out on the players.

There's no working around the League trying to double their share of the spoils off the top, while also putting their players' bodies at risk for a longer schedule without decreasing the amount of time required for a full NFL pension.

I'm predisposed to side with labor because I used to be in a union, but I'm not sure how you can compare the financial risk of ownership where profits are essentially guaranteed under the current arrangement (just not as much as ownership would like) to the physical risks the players take every time they step on the field.

Anyone who thinks that the NFL can field replacement players and have close to the product that we as fans have enjoyed didn't see Max Hall play last season. He was an NFL player. Do you really want to see guys who couldn't make the roster ahead of Max Hall as starters?

As far the current agreement being unsustainable, you are right the league isn't in trouble...yet. You can't have the increase in the salary cap from year to year that has been occurring and not run into some major financial issues down the line.

In regards to player safety, give me a break. They get paid incredible amounts of money to play football, and all players are well aware of the health risks involved. No one is forcing these people to play football. They can get a normal job at a car dealership if they are too worried about the health risks. This isn't an auto factory or lumber mill and these guys sure as hell aren't bringing in 40K a year.

I am ok with replacement players at this point because it is poor players vs. poor players. I like college football, and I can handle watching the same caliber of play on Sundays.
 

desertdawg

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IMO, it doesn't much matter. Owners planned this a while back and thought it would be a lot easier to pull off. Enter Smith and the Judge, things changed. Players got some leverage and Smith got his ego...then they didn't want to deal NO MO.

Now it's a who did what and who tried to make the Fans happy debacle. I was caring way back when they they should have set a two week deadline as far as negotiations (day after the Superbowl would have been nice).

It's like watching some WWF hype, and I am changing the channel. Fight over our money, screw us while trying to screw eachother, and then come ask how I feel about the this. (the NFL Players Union)
Don't care who's right, I don't support either, both have had the upper hand and chose to be swine. (IMO) As the power shifts, so does the problem.

Love you TJ, but I side with the fans homie. 100%
 
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PJ1

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How is the current agreement "unsustainable"? makes money in the current arrangement; there's nothing in business law that says that businesses are guaranteed a certain level of growth in profit every year.


Nothing in business law that says the employee has any say as to how the profits are split either. They are negotiating a new agreement and changes will be proposed.
 
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seesred

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I side with the fans. Ticket sellers, venders, ushers, parking guys. That's my side. I can't even think about 185 mil or 98 bil. If they don't fix it it's their problem and all the problems it will hurt so many people.

GBR
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ARZCardinals

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In a day where 10% of the population is out of work and many more struggling...they have a product making a lot of money and yet they still can't pull it together...

Players union and owners are wrong

They had a full year to negotiate and they never met till the season was over.

They pass all the fees to us and they still fight.

Cardinals raise ticket prices every year they win and simply hold prices when they don't. They can't lose...and dOnt give me the tiny drop they did in the upper deck.

Don't say your sorry to the fans...I don't want to hear it...they don't care about us one bit.
 

Cardiac

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Owners say the current/last CBA isn't substainable. Then they tell us that basically they gave the players everything they were looking for and more. That's a pretty stupid move to cancel the CBA and then give the players more. This tells me that the owners are spinning the offer they gave the players.

Players want to see the books so that they know they are getting their split that was agreed to. They want to see the books to make sure the owners have a point about needing to cut labor costs. The players have a shorter amount of time to make their money and owners like Bill Sr make money as long as they are alive. Does anyone really think that players like Manning and Brees are idiots. They have more then just D Smith whispering in their ears. This tells me that the owners aren't being totally honest about what they have offered. Why would Manning risk a year of salary unless there is more to the story.

No one ever complains about what Oprah or Harrison Ford or Lady Gaga or Dave Letterman makes but get upset about how much proffesional athletes make. All are in the entertainment industry and yet athletes are held to a different standard for some reason.

Wasn't it the owners who said they and the players were in a partnership. Well partners get to see the Profit and Loss statements and have access to all the books. If my partner wants to see the books for the last 10 years then they get to see them.

Why can't the players form their own league? It takes money but they have a bunch and could easily get investors. Who needs who? What skill do the owners bring to the table?

I am not all in on anyone side of this issue but I am more with the players then owners.
 

Mitch

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I think it was a very telling sign that this morning the owner of the Denver Broncos has stated that he would be willing to open up the Broncos' books to a third party who can then relay the information to the players.

What this says is that the Broncos' owner understands what is keeping the two sides apart...and what has created a breach of trust between the owners and the players.

This also says that there are some owners who want to solve the issues asap.

If more of the owners show this type of understanding and cooperation---the new CBA may be reached sooner than anyone expects.

Analogy: I had a girlfriend a few years ago who was always telling me how broke she was---and even though she owned her own successful business, I believed her. So, I basically paid for everything while we were seeing each other (almost a year), which incuded a $3,000 summer vacation trip that she asked me to arrange and pay for (because she needed to get away and couldn't afford to go)---only to discover a few months later at Christmas she bought her two daughters $750 watches.

So I called her on the carpet about the watches and she basically said that what she gave her daughters was irrelevant and that as far as we were concerned, the man should pay for everything anyway. That was it. I called it off. A week later she took a trip to Aruba and bought a new convertible.

I sh-- you not.

The point is---some people will tell you they are broke---and quite often it is a ploy to feather the proverbial nest.
 
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kerouac9

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1) Then why should the players get guaranteed growth in their piece of the pie every year? They were supposedly doing that in the last CBA if I'm not mistaken with teams having to spend a minimum amount on the cap & up to a certain dollar point. The cap increased what $10 mil a yr/per team a year if I'm not mistaken

2) I repesct the players putting their future well being on the line, especially in later years but they have a choice for another profession & income. I'm quite sure 95% of them couldnt find jobs in the everyday world that pays them what the NFL does.

3) A new stadium IMO is part of what the fans want & has helped grow the game, which adds $ to everyone associated with that team & at some point has to be addressed by every NFL team.

4) Tell me K9, how much financial risk is shared by the players? I'll tell you...zero!!!

1) The players don't get a guarateed increase in "their slice of the pie every year." The percentage of revenue doesn't increase every year; when the revenue increases, so does the salary cap. But it's not like owners get 45% of revenues, then 42%, then 40%, then 38%. That's the slice of the pie increasing every year. That's not what happens.

2) Well, I'm sure that 99.9% of the population can't complete a deep out with Dwight Freeney bearing down on him. I'm sure that 99.9% of the population can't run a 4.50 40 while looking over their shoulder for the ball and hand-fighting a cornerback. This argument never makes any sense to me.

3) I agree with you, but if the owners get the financial benefit from new stadiums, why do they want money back from the players? If it's really bad for them (And the Green Bay books suggest it's not) then open your books and tell us how you're in trouble.

Question: Why should anyone making a minimum 6 figure salary need retirement benefits and health coverage provided for them? I contribute to both my own health insurance and my own pension. If I want more of a retirement package, I'm free to do that on my own. And I don't make near the money they make. Am I any less important? I work in an environment that at a moment's notice I could be seriously injured or even killed but I don't scream, scratch, and cry for anything more than what I'm getting now and I feel fortunate for what I have. Point is, this is nothing more than millionaire players quibbling with billionaire owners over BS. This isn't the 50's, 60's, or 70's anymore where players were considered real blue collared workers, the kind who in the off season had to get actual jobs and any player who has any kind of a career should have a comfortable retirement if they aren't stupid with their money. If a player only manages a year or 2, then they should have a college degree to fall back on. If they don't, it's not the fault of the owners. There's plenty of greed to go around here.

That's what collective bargaining is all about. It was a mistake of the middle class to be conned into giving up employer-sponsored pensions in exchange for 401Ks with potentially higher growth but also much much higher risk. You're not less important, but you have less leverage. Because people stupidly allowed the unions to be dismantled over the last 30 years and gave up financial security doesn't mean that people who didn't do that shouldn't have the rights that they asked for.

Are you less important? I don't know. Do you have a skill set that the market deems less valuable? Certainly. Sorry, but that's the way free enterprise works.

As far the current agreement being unsustainable, you are right the league isn't in trouble...yet. You can't have the increase in the salary cap from year to year that has been occurring and not run into some major financial issues down the line.

In regards to player safety, give me a break. They get paid incredible amounts of money to play football, and all players are well aware of the health risks involved. No one is forcing these people to play football. They can get a normal job at a car dealership if they are too worried about the health risks. This isn't an auto factory or lumber mill and these guys sure as hell aren't bringing in 40K a year.

I am ok with replacement players at this point because it is poor players vs. poor players. I like college football, and I can handle watching the same caliber of play on Sundays.

Why can't you have a yearly increase in the salary cap if revenues keep increasing every yet? The salary cap is tied to revenues. If revenues go down, then so does the salary cap. If the league is in trouble (which they're clearly not), then open the books and show the union. The real issue is that small-market teams are in trouble and the big market teams are not, and instead of increasing revenue-sharing, the League wants to take the difference out of the players' pockets.

No one is forcing NFL owners to take the risk that they're taking for guaranteed profit every year. If they're not happy with their return on their investment, then they can sell the team. See how easy this is to work in both directions? No one is paying money to see Jerry Jones's team; they're paying money to see the Dallas Cowboys. No one is paying money so that Bill Bidwill can make money; they're paying to see Larry Fitzgerald.

I hate the college game and can't watch it because the quality is low--even for good teams. I can't tell you the number of fans I've talked to who want no part of players who not only aren't good enough to play in the NFL right now, but also are so bad that they aren't worried about being scabs and being barred from the NFLPA whenever the labor issues are settled.
 

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