Who is the best pg ever to wear a Suns uni?

[Cheesebeef]

Well as far as the original question goes and looking at their entire respective careers, I say it's Kidd. Kidd is the better all around player when you take defense into consideration, and his offensive numbers are better than Nash's and right there with KJ's as far as career ppg, apg, and he blows them both away in rpg. As fars as career totals, Kidd again blows away both guys in assists and rebounds, and his points are right there with KJ. Steals and blocks are not even worth comparing, Kidd is on a whole different level there.

steals and blocks are not even worth mentioning? KJ averaged 1.5 and .2 per game versus Kidd's 2.0 and .3 - not that big of a discrepency. And as far as scoring, a 14.6 ppg scorer versus and 18 ppg scorer is a pretty big difference. Sure, Kidd has better numbers rebounding, but he wasn't anywhere close to the shooter/scorer and he was only equal as a PG... and don't get me started on the most overrated aspect of Kidd's game - his matador like defense which was just as bad as KJ's.

Also - we're talking about best for the Suns - KJ led the Suns to the Conference Finals 3X and went to an NBA Finals, whereas Kidd got us out of the first round... once. There's no comparison between the two as far as SUNS PGs - has Kidd had the better overall career? Probably, but that's only because injuries destroyed KJ career and he retired when he was only 31.

And the only reason Kidd got All NBA honors and KJ didn't is because KJ played during the era of Magic and Stockton and Isiah before injuries derailed his career, not to mention that he was on a dream team and brought home the gold (I don't think Kidd has done that, has he?). Kidd played in an era where the PG position was all but dead - that's why he got such pub - he had no competition.

 

[Big D]

steals and blocks are not even worth mentioning? KJ averaged 1.5 and .2 per game versus Kidd's 2.0 and .3 - not that big of a discrepency.

I said as far as career totals, neither are anywhere close to Kidd in total steals or blocks.

And as far as scoring, a 14.6 ppg scorer versus and 18 ppg scorer is a pretty big difference.

True

Also - we're talking about best for the Suns - KJ led the Suns to the Conference Finals 3X and went to an NBA Finals, whereas Kidd got us out of the first round... once. There's no comparison between the two as far as SUNS PGs - has Kidd had the better overall career? Probably, but that's only because injuries destroyed KJ career and he retired when he was only 31.

Read the original post, the thread starter specifically said NOT just what they did as a Sun, but as far as ther entire careers. Obviously KJ is the best of three as a Sun and I said that in my post.

If you want to bring up injuries, that only further's Kidd's case. He has been much less injury prone (especially as a Sun) over the course of his career than KJ, meaning he has been more durable. As a Cards fan, would you say Andre Wadsworth was not a bust because injuries forced him out of the league? I certainly wouldn't.

And the only reason Kidd got All NBA honors and KJ didn't is because KJ played during the era of Magic and Stockton and Isiah before injuries derailed his career, not to mention that he was on a dream team and brought home the gold (I don't think Kidd has done that, has he?). Kidd played in an era where the PG position was all but dead - that's why he got such pub - he had no competition.

Well ok, you can penalize Kidd for not having as great of players to compete with as far as all NBA/all NBA defensive honors, but check where he ranks all time (which include every player that ever played) vs KJ and Nash. He still is ahead of them in almost every category. And yes, J Kidd did bring home the gold for the US in 2000, he was a captain on that squad.

 

[jibikao]

I am new here so my vote is going to be biased.

All I know is Suns used to be pretty sucky after Barkley went to Rocket and Kidd/Penny couldn't really push Suns to WCF (against Lakers/Spurs?) and after Nash joined, Suns has become an elite team and has got tons of fame from it.

I know Kidd has been to Finals twice but he did that on the East. I dare say if Kidd's team is on the West, he will not pass Spurs just like how Nash hasn't done it yet. Kidd's offense is not good at half court 'cause he needs to become a spot-up shooter which isn't his strength. Defense-wise, Kidd is good at defending guys that are a bit slower. Quick guys like Parker and even Nash will still give him troubles. Not that Nash has good defense but I just don't think Kidd's defense is all that impressive. I don't watch too many Nets games but something tells me their centers/PFs play more of a boxout guys than grabbing the rebound guy. I know it's impressive for Kidd to grab rebounds as a PG but I won't expect my PGs to focus on grabbing rebounds in the first place anyway if I were the coach. I expect my center/forwards to do that. What I mean is I think Kidd's rebound is a bit inflated due to stats. I don't know the accurate stats but is Nets ranked one of the top defensive rebounding team? If Kidd's rebound ability is a real PLUS for the team, then Nets should rank the best rebounding team in NBA 'cause I don't think there is any PG that can have as many rebounds as Kidd consistently. Another thing is if Kidd has the ball earlier when the opposing misses, it is much easier for him to run fast-breaks. Too bad Nash just isn't strong enough to grab rebounds consistently.

I've only seen KJ a few times and he was always trying to dunk which was pretty impressive but I don't consider that a "must-have" for a PG. Tony Parker usually doesn't dunk but he is as hard to stop as any PGs I've seen.


I think when healthy, I will take Nash over Kidd and KJ. Part of the problem with Nash in playoffs is that he wears down due to age, pace of the game or whatever. I think when Nash is well rested, he is almost unstoppable in terms of scoring, distributing the ball and just being a great leader for the team. Even Nash's mind seems very sharp when he is well rested.

PS: Oops, as a whole career, I think I'll give it to Kidd because he instantly became the superstar-pg when he stepped into the league. Nash was pretty much buried under Kidd for the first 1-2 years and then he finally had the chance to shine. I also think Michael Finely was hurting Nash in many ways when Nash was in Dallas. Finely was the "soul" of the team and the coach always wanted him to finish the game. But now in Phx, Nash has TOTAL control of the game. He doesn't need to defer to Finely or to Dirk. When the game is on the line, Nash is expected to carry the team, not Marion or even Amare.

 

[Bufalay]

Also - we're talking about best for the Suns - KJ led the Suns to the Conference Finals 3X and went to an NBA Finals, whereas Kidd got us out of the first round... once. quote]

Wasn't KJ more responsible for the Suns getting out of the first round that year than Kidd?

 

[Bufalay]

I vote for KJ. Coming out of retirement was the coolest thing any player has ever done.

 

[Louis]

KJ -17.9 ppg, 49% fg, 30% 3pt, 9.1 apg, 1.5 spg, 3.3 rpg, 3 topg

Finals Team - Barkley, Majerle, Dumas, Ceballos, Chambers, Ainge, Knight, Miller, West, Mustaf, Frank Johnson, Tim Kempton

3 All Star Selections (all with Suns), 11 Playoff Appearances

Nash - 13.5 ppg, 47% fg, 42% 3pt, 7.1 apg, 0.8 spg, 2.8 rpg, 2.4 topg

WCF Team - Amare, Marion, JJ, Hunter, JJax, Q, LB, McCarty, Voskuhl, Outlaw, Shirley

2 MVPs, 4 All Star Selection (2 with Suns), 8 Playoff Appearances

-------------------------------

Career numbers comparison.

 

[BillsCarnage]

I think KJ's stats were actually better prior to coming out of retirement too.

 

[Ollie]

KJ single-handedly made me a Suns fan and Nash is my favorite player, so I won't pick between these two.

 

[slinslin]

You can make a case for Nash being the best PG of all time, can't make that case for KJ and you cant argue with 2 MvPs either..

 

[Cheesebeef]

You can make a case for Nash being the best PG of all time,

uh, no you can't. Nash has had two unbelievable years - Magic and Stockton had unbelievable CAREERS. I love Nash to death and he's the best PG of this era, but he in no way can hold a candle to Magic or Stockton.

 

[slinslin]

uh, no you can't. Nash has had two unbelievable years - Magic and Stockton had unbelievable CAREERS. I love Nash to death and he's the best PG of this era, but he in no way can hold a candle to Magic or Stockton.

Who cares about their career, Nash came in as a rookie behind KJ and Kidd..

The last 2 years and this he can easily compare to the best years of Magic and Stockton that's all that matters plus 2 MVPs and he isnt done yet.


Just to put things in perspective this is from someone on realgm

Pace of the 06-07 Suns: 95.9
Pace of the 86-87 Lakers: 101.6

Understanding that 86-87 was generally considered Magic's best year, here are there two numbers, with non-% numbers adjusted for to modern pace:

Nash: P-21.3 A-11.5 R-2.9 FG%-52.5 3P%-51.9 TS%-65.6
Magic: P-22.6 A-11.5 R-5.9 FG%-52.2 3P%-23.3 TS%-60.1

Let me explain TS% for those not familiar with it. FG% is an immensely flawed stat. What we really want is how many points a guy is scoring per actual shot attempt, even including those not officially counted because of fouls. Formula for TS is Points/(FGA+0.44*FTA), where the 0.44 comes from heavy amounts of data collection. So as should be expected, it's a hell of a lot more impressive that Nash shoots 52% than that Magic did it, even if you forget about the general ease at which players in Magic's era got high FG%s, because of his role on the team as a shooter.

 

[Nasser22]

I don't care if the Kidd was boring but he was a much better defensive player, better passer in a slower offense, could rebound much, much better. The only thing Nash is better in is outside shooting. Give a Jason Kidd in his prime an Amare Stoudemire and a better overally supporting cast like Nash has and he would do great. The Suns team just wasn't as good back then. He did make the Finals twice even though it wasn't with us. Right now I think Nash is better than him but overall it is Kidd. Nash only had 2 good season's and it's still debatable about who is better now and Kidd has been a much better player all-time.

And no, two good years just barely puts him in the top 10.

 

[slinslin]

Kidd was DEFINATELY not a better passer, when Nash was in Dallas and Kidd in Phoenix Nash always averaged more assists per minute already.

Oh and Kidd had Antonio McDyess who was at that point very comparable to Amare.

It doesnt matter if Kidd made the finals, any Suns team in the last 10 years except one of the Marbury teams would have made the finals in the East those years, they made the finals and everyone knew they didnt stand a chance.

Do you know Kidd's record against Western Conference teams in the playoffs? 0-X. Technically he won one, but Duncan was out the entire series, Kidd was out as well and KJ came out of retirement and lead the team together with Penny over the Spurs.

Kidd has Carter, Jefferson, Krstic, Williams... and he is what? 7-11 in one of the worst conferences of all time, and the possibly the worst division of all time.

 

[Nasser22]

The only reason Nash is getting more assists is because of the fast paced offense we run and yes this team is obviously better than the ones of the past. In Kidd's years with us he played about 7 more minutes than Nash's years with Dallas but had about 3 more assists per game. Nash struggled to reach 8 assists a season while Kidd was regularly getting 9 and 10 with us.

Kidd with us, about 39 minutes and 10 assists.
Nash with Dallas, 33 minutes and 7.5 assists.

And they are not even remotly close in rebounding and defense. Nash only has shooting and they are pretty equal with winning. Getting to the Finals is getting to the Finals, Kidd was great in the playoffs. It's not like he ever choked. The team's we had just weren't that great. McDyess only played 1 season with Nash and only averaged 15 and 7. He may have looked good but he made a mistake and left to play with his friend before he really did anything for Phoenix.

 

[JCSunsfan]

uh, no you can't. Nash has had two unbelievable years - Magic and Stockton had unbelievable CAREERS. I love Nash to death and he's the best PG of this era, but he in no way can hold a candle to Magic or Stockton.

I agree with you on Magic, I don't on Stockton. Nash is much more creative with the ball than Stockton was. Stockton built an NBA assist record by dumping the ball to Karl Malone. Nash is a better shooter too. I would take Nash over Stockton.

You're right on Magic though. There's no way he can close to that combination of skills.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't care if the Kidd was boring but he was a much better defensive player, better passer in a slower offense, could rebound much, much better. The only thing Nash is better in is outside shooting. Give a Jason Kidd in his prime an Amare Stoudemire and a better overally supporting cast like Nash has and he would do great. The Suns team just wasn't as good back then. He did make the Finals twice even though it wasn't with us. Right now I think Nash is better than him but overall it is Kidd. Nash only had 2 good season's and it's still debatable about who is better now and Kidd has been a much better player all-time.

And no, two good years just barely puts him in the top 10.

Kidd is/was a better passer (and is probably faster) in the open court, but he doesn't hold a candle to Nash in the half court. Nash is way better in his decision-making. Does anyone remember how frustrating it was to watch Kidd drive to the rim for an open layup, only to kick it out to someone else at the last second? It seemed like he was trying to pad his assist stats. Nash doesn't do that. If he has the open layup or shot, he takes it, and he usually makes it.

Or how about all those defenders sliding below the pick when Kidd was on the perimeter because they knew he couldn't/wouldn't shoot it.

Kidd is a great defender, and rebounder, but a pg has to be able to shoot to be effective. We have big guys to rebound.

Also. Whose hands would you rather have the ball in on your last possession? Its not even close. Thursday night was a perfect illustration.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Nash - 2 time MVP

KJ - Desert Flower

Nuff said

 

[slinslin]

Kidd was great in the playoffs. It's not like he ever choked..

Oh I clearly remember Jason Williams abusing Kidd in Kidd's last playoff series with Phoenix.

And the Suns were simply not that good? They won like 55 games in the regular season every season didn't they? He had Marion ,Robinson, Gugliotta, Penny, Rogers etc etc , lack of supporting cast can hardly be your excuse for Kidd's failures.

 

[Billy Bob]

I agree with Bufalay, it was a tough choice but I voted for KJ, When Kidd went down and KJ said "My team needs Me" that was the coolest thing ever.
Was Nash on that team too or had He been traded already?

 

[Sunsin2007]

Nash...better than KJ?

My two cents:

He's definitely better than KJ. KJ could drive and score with the best of them, but his defense always left a lot to be desired. Plus, Nash gets everyone involved, whereas KJ was more concerned with scoring.

Also, KJ never won NBA MVP, which Nash has done twice now.

KJ may have led us to the NBA Finals alongside Barkley, but Nash and Co. will take us to the top, where we've never been.

An NBA Championship.

 

[boondockdrunk]

I think that you wanted to place this in the poll about who was the better PG...

 

[KingofCards]

I think the reason for saying this is because of the way KJ got his assists. Typically, he would come down along the right elbow, then stop and pop, or turn on the after-burner toward the rim. He would get up in the air and either lay it up or dish it off to whoever was moving toward the hoop. He did the same thing over and over again.

Nash is much more creative. He moves the ball around so much better than KJ did, and he gets more people involved that KJ did.

These three are all hall-of-fame worthy (but I don't think KJ will make it) and they were so different.

For me, at this point, I give Nash the nod--but boy is it close.

I think most of KJ's assists were involved with the two man game with Tom Chambers and later with Barkley.

 

[Nasser22]

My two cents:

He's definitely better than KJ. KJ could drive and score with the best of them, but his defense always left a lot to be desired. Plus, Nash gets everyone involved, whereas KJ was more concerned with scoring.

Also, KJ never won NBA MVP, which Nash has done twice now.

KJ may have led us to the NBA Finals alongside Barkley, but Nash and Co. will take us to the top, where we've never been.

An NBA Championship.

You try to support why Nash is better than KJ but you bring up defense? The one thing that can never be argued for Nash? Can't disagree with anything else, hopefully Nash CAN take us to the top.

 

[Romp]

KJ was my favourite player growing up and the reason I started supporting the Suns. But even the most biased onlooker has to say that Nash (looking at his best years vs KJ's best) is better. KJ was quicker, more athletic, a better defender and probably a better scorer than Nash but Nash controls the entire game when he's on the court. You need to look far beyond Nash's stats to see what he brings to the table. He makes everyone better.

KJ was a great point guard but nowhere close to the MVP level of Nash, in fact KJ was only a borderline all star, he was considered maybe the 4th or 5th best point guard in the league when he was playing.

 

[JCSunsfan]

KJ and Nash played defense at nearly the same level.

The difference is that KJ was capable of playing better defense, but seldom did.

I hated it when the ball was in KJ's hands at crunch time. He would drive and try to get a foul called--the refs swallowed their whistles, and everyone in purple and orange would cry we wuz robbed.