Whose game is Barbosa's most like?

Yuma

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Watching Barbosa over the preseason and the first 5 games, his game really reminds me of Cuttino Mobley. The way Cuttino drives to the basket with his speed, and shoots flat threes. Barbosa looks like a younger Cuttino! :thumbup:
 
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Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Yuma said:
Watching Barbosa over the preseason and the first 5 games, his game really reminds me of Cuttino Mobley. The way Cuttino drives to the basket with his speed, and shoots flat threes. Barbosa looks like a bigger Cuttino! :thumbup:


except that i think cuttino is an inch taller.
 

Arizona's Finest

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well i watched that game last night and barbosa has a convert in me...i love james Jones too and you all know what i think about Boris. Jimmy and some picks will be traded to get a legit big like Wilcox, Ely, or some young incosistent and unproven big that the suns will develop and turn into a poor mans amare...


:koolaid: Yeah give me some more!


Barbosa has finally put it together....he might be the quickest player now that A.I. 's body has started to break down. i remember one play in particular where he went around a pretty quick Billups, by a lightning quick Rip and around McDyess who is probaly there best moving big man. And when i say around i mean he was at the cup and they were still looking at his back. If he keeps shooting that way too he is going to be a PLAYER...

But all i can keep thinking is.....What if we had Amare.....?????

we are better than the Spurs write it down....with Amare we would be 4-1 or 5-0 and the talk of the league. The biggest difference is that we have no big to go to when we need points....
 
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kaesile

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What about Bobby Jackson? Both are smallish pseudo point guards that can really shoot the ball. Back when Sac was near the top of the Western Conference, I remember he was a big part of that, being the sixth man that scored off the bench. If Barbosa can stay consistent, he can be really valuable.

I'm not sure how good of a rebounder Barbosa is, but Mobley rebounds pretty decently for a 2-guard. Definitely nowhere near the level of Jason Richardson or Jason Kidd, but a little above average.
 

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Arizona's Finest said:
well i watched that game last night and barbosa has a convert in me...i love james Jones too and you all know what i think about Boris. Jimmy and some picks will be traded to get a legit big like Wilcox, Ely, or some young incosistent and unproven big that the suns will develop and turn into a poor mans amare...


:koolaid: Yeah give me some more!


Barbosa has finally put it together....he might be the quickest player now that A.I. 's body has started to break down. i remember one play in particular where he went around a pretty quick Billups, by a lightning quick Rip and around McDyess who is probaly there best moving big man. And when i say around i mean he was at the cup and they were still looking at his back. If he keeps shooting that way too he is going to be a PLAYER...

But all i can keep thinking is.....What if we had Amare.....?????

we are better than the Spurs right it down....with Amre we would be 5-1 or 6-0 and the talk of the league. The biggest difference is that we have no big to go to when we need points....

wow, amare is so good that we would've won a game we haven't even played yet! (we've only played 5 games)
 

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Ouchie-Z-Clown said:
wow, amare is so good that we would've won a game we haven't even played yet! (we've only played 5 games)

:oops: ....He is THAT good though...













My bad
 

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Yuma said:
Watching Barbosa over the preseason and the first 5 games, his game really reminds me of Cuttino Mobley. The way Cuttino drives to the basket with his speed, and shoots flat threes. Barbosa looks like a younger Cuttino! :thumbup:

I've been watching pro hoops for 30 years and I'm not sure I've seen a player of Barbosa's stature(6'3") who is so fast, long of arm, and finishes at the hoop over/around shot-blockers. He was driving right down the heart of the Detroit defense. No, I never saw Mobley do that, though Mobley has many other talents. Barbosa's long arms and leaping ability also make him an under rated defender, if he can nail down fundamentals of team defense(he has to be a better thinker on defense). He just still so raw its hard to tell how big the upside is. You know, last year he looked really good against Tony Parker for 2-3 quarters in one game(20pts?). He still must adjust to the pro game and defensive schemes used against him, though.
 

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fordronken said:
On that same note, I'm starting to look at Diaw as a raw Kirilenko. Except he can dribble and pass.

This, of course, makes him the anti-Kirilenko. He is physically much more rugged than AK47 as well.
 

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some of you may laugh at me but i think barbosa is a rare kevin johnson, maybe with a better outside shoot then kj. both are players that drive to the basket without fear of what is in the way, and both are so quick that no one can stay in front of them. barbosa doesnt have kj's passing but he has shown a much greater willingness to be a passer this year.
 

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scotsman13 said:
some of you may laugh at me but i think barbosa is a rare kevin johnson, maybe with a better outside shoot then kj. both are players that drive to the basket without fear of what is in the way, and both are so quick that no one can stay in front of them. barbosa doesnt have kj's passing but he has shown a much greater willingness to be a passer this year.

This one is much closer, though I wouldn't want to lay that one on LB right now. To be more like KJ, LB would have to be able to elevate over the defense (not need screens as much) for his jump shot, and pass ALOT better. The speed is there with LB, however.
 

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I can't imagine anyone saying Barbosa is similar to Kevin Johnson if he actually watched Johnson play. When healthy, Johnson was one of the pureset, most potent offensive forces in the league. You simply had to honor his pull-up jumper from 17 feet, but if you played him close, he would drive by you and dish to a teammate.

If we have to compare Barbosa to an All-Star, I would say Iverson. Both are quick as hell, undersized SGs with erratic outside shots, who can get to the basket seemingly at will and have a knack for finishing in traffic.
 

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elindholm said:
I can't imagine anyone saying Barbosa is similar to Kevin Johnson if he actually watched Johnson play. When healthy, Johnson was one of the pureset, most potent offensive forces in the league. You simply had to honor his pull-up jumper from 17 feet, but if you played him close, he would drive by you and dish to a teammate.

If we have to compare Barbosa to an All-Star, I would say Iverson. Both are quick as hell, undersized SGs with erratic outside shots, who can get to the basket seemingly at will and have a knack for finishing in traffic.

Barbosa is a much better shooter than iverson, who has a sloppy stroke. Inconsistencies in Barbosa's shot I believe are due to confidence and playing time, not a problem for iverson. As for KJ, I love KJ, but he was a shoot first point guard, not a true point. He was devastating passer in a two man game especially, but did not have the court vision of a Nash, Magic, Cheeks, or Stockton. Point taken though, the similarities between Barbosa and KJ are mostly physical.
 

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Inconsistencies in Barbosa's shot I believe are due to confidence and playing time, not a problem for iverson.

The inconsistencies in Barbosa's shot are due to mechanics. He has a two-handed push shot with a flat trajectory and minimal rotation. It is simply inaccurate to call him a much better shooter than Iverson.

As for KJ, I love KJ, but he was a shoot first point guard, not a true point.

If Johnson doesn't meet your standards of "true point guard," then I don't know what definition you're using. He is one of six players in NBA history to average at least 9 assists per game over his career. The others are Magic Johnson, Stockton, Robertson, Thomas, and Kidd.

Is any PG with a good shot automatically saddled with the "shoot first" label? The PG's job is to get the best possible shot for his team -- and if it ends up that he is the team's best option, so be it.
 

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elindholm said:
If Johnson doesn't meet your standards of "true point guard," then I don't know what definition you're using. He is one of six players in NBA history to average at least 9 assists per game over his career. The others are Magic Johnson, Stockton, Robertson, Thomas, and Kidd.

Is any PG with a good shot automatically saddled with the "shoot first" label? The PG's job is to get the best possible shot for his team -- and if it ends up that he is the team's best option, so be it.

I guess the true definition of a shoot first point guard is a guy who, if he had the option, would rather shoot than pass. A point guard who defaults to the pass no matter what is worse for the team. That's Diaw's biggest flaw right now. Even right under the basket, he always looks to see if there's someone to pass to before he decides whether or not he has a good shot. If you have a lay up, you should take it.
 

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elindholm said:
Inconsistencies in Barbosa's shot I believe are due to confidence and playing time, not a problem for iverson.

The inconsistencies in Barbosa's shot are due to mechanics. He has a two-handed push shot with a flat trajectory and minimal rotation. It is simply inaccurate to call him a much better shooter than Iverson.

As for KJ, I love KJ, but he was a shoot first point guard, not a true point.

If Johnson doesn't meet your standards of "true point guard," then I don't know what definition you're using. He is one of six players in NBA history to average at least 9 assists per game over his career. The others are Magic Johnson, Stockton, Robertson, Thomas, and Kidd.

Is any PG with a good shot automatically saddled with the "shoot first" label? The PG's job is to get the best possible shot for his team -- and if it ends up that he is the team's best option, so be it.

Mechanics "experts" have failed to explain how "poor mechanics" lead to good free throws and "good mechanics" lead to poor free throws. I expect that the reproducibility and not the hand positions are more important. And I also expect that LB's free throws are a better determiner of his shooting mechanics, not a defended jump shot. Marions critics called his shot "poor mechanics", but he shoots 83% free throws with it. Name fifteen players in the NBA who shoot better free throws than Marion over the last 3 years. Iverson takes off balanced shots alot, that causes his inconsistencies. He also shoots poor free throws fro a guy who spends so much time at the line. I just think that the comparison to iverson is even worse than the one to a young KJ. Sorry for the opinion if you dont like it.

As for standards and Johnson, I'll take a Kevin Johnson over 90% of the points in NBA history, but he tended to take things on himself in a pinch, and preferred it that way. A majority of his assists came off the two man game(Nance, Chambers, Barkley). A point who puts his head down alot when he drives gives up court vision and is more predictable. Its a choice, but, given KJ's one-on-one skills, it isn't a bad one, its just more predictable, more shooting guard-like. I dont use stats to eval point guards nature, they are unreliable. Wilt Chamberlain had 10+ assists in one season, but no one called him a point guard that year. Assist totals depend on the talents of complementary players. The question is, do savy veterans stand around and watch him when he drives? No sense in moving without the ball if he's probably gonna shoot. To some extent, this was true with KJ at certain times. In this way, Kevin was not like todays selfish points, but more so than Magic, Cheeks, Nash , Stockton and some other other less successful points whos first goal was to get other involved in the game. Pure points are quite rare, and skilled pure points are very rare.

Kevin Learned to play the point but came into the league with two guard skills( you remember?). Since leandro is just starting, I decided to compare him to the young kevin johnson, who was basically a very explosive one-on-one player. But if you insist on comparing the veteran KJ to the inexperienced Barbosa, it doesnt work. We can just disagree on the relevance of your assuming how LB will turn out as a veteran.
 

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elindholm said:
The PG's job is to get the best possible shot for his team -- and if it ends up that he is the team's best option, so be it.

I guess that makes Jordan, chamberlain point guards when they take the shot. I consider a point guards job to be to use the floor, stretch the defense, and keep everyone involved so that the highest percentage shots are taken when the game is on the line. This includes making the defense work so they are tired at the end of the game. One-on-One only makes one defender tired. And if then you are tired at the end of the game, and others on your team are cold from not being involved, you have not done your job!
 

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nowagimp,

btw, welcome to our jungle. i've enjoyed reading your posts, and can't say i've disagreed with much.

a breath of fresh air.
 

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nowagimp said:
A majority of his assists came off the two man game(Nance, Chambers, Barkley).

Kevin Learned to play the point but came into the league with two guard skills( you remember?). Since leandro is just starting, I decided to compare him to the young kevin johnson, who was basically a very explosive one-on-one player. But if you insist on comparing the veteran KJ to the inexperienced Barbosa, it doesnt work. We can just disagree on the relevance of your assuming how LB will turn out as a veteran.


point of clarification: kj never played with nance. they were traded for one and other.

kj was a point from the get-go. the suns acquired him midway through his rookie year and he immediately started putting up high assist numbers. i think the leandro to any incarnation of kj comparison is a poor one. leandro doesn't have the pg skills that did kj, at any point in kj's career.
 

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Mechanics "experts" have failed to explain how "poor mechanics" lead to good free throws and "good mechanics" lead to poor free throws.

That's just not correct. Simple physics tells you that (a) the ball has an easier time getting through the hoop if it is shot with good arc, because the hoop "looks" larger from a more vertical angle, and (b) gentle backspin is likely to cause the ball to "die" on the rim and fall through, compared to a knuckle-ball shot which is more likely to kick out.

Good mechanics don't guarantee that someone will be a good shooter, and someone with terrible mechanics might, through repetition, be able to compensate for them. You can think of it like typing: I type pretty quickly, but I've improvised a bizarre system that works fairly well for my particular hands and fingers. A true touch typist, properly trained, has the potential to be much faster and more accurate than I am.

Iverson takes off balanced shots alot, that causes his inconsistencies. He also shoots poor free throws fro a guy who spends so much time at the line.

Barbosa has a minimal edge over Iverson in career FT%, 79% to 77%. So I don't think this line of argument provides much insight in this case.

I agree that, in general, someone's FT accuracy is a good measuring stick for his overall skill as a shooter. However, it's just one measuring stick, not a guarantee, and someone like Marion provides a good counterexample.

In this way, Kevin was not like todays selfish points, but more so than Magic, Cheeks, Nash , Stockton and some other other less successful points whos first goal was to get other involved in the game.

Cheeks is before my time (meaning, before I started paying much attention to players who weren't on the Suns). But if you're disqualifying Johnson because so many of his assists came from the two-man game, you need to disqualify Stockton and Nash for the same reason.

Kevin Learned to play the point but came into the league with two guard skills( you remember?).

I remember that point being made before, by other Barbosa apologists. I can't claim to have a crystal-clear memory of Johnson's earliest years in the league, but I do know that from the first time I saw him, he looked much more like a point guard than Barbosa ever has.

I'll take a Kevin Johnson over 90% of the points in NBA history, but he tended to take things on himself in a pinch, and preferred it that way.

I don't see how you can claim to know what he "preferred." As far as the observation goes that he took things upon himself too much, I reject that as a criticism. You have to take what the defense gives you. If they are playing off of your shot and making it difficult or impossible to find an open teammate, then you have no choice but to step up and take the shot yourself. Even Kidd, the alleged consummate "pure PG" of our day, finds himself taking crunch-time shots quite often. Of course, in his case, it's because he can't shoot, making it an even more effective strategy for the defense.

A point who puts his head down alot when he drives gives up court vision and is more predictable.

If you are saying that Johnson was a less effective point guard than Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson, I agree. Those two players made excellent use of their height advantage.

We can just disagree on the relevance of your assuming how LB will turn out as a veteran.

We also seem to disagree on how quickly Johnson matured. Didn't the Suns acquire him in his rookie year? And didn't he lead the Suns to the WCF just a year or two after that? (These are honest questions; I can't remember and can't easily dig up the information.)
 

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I'm having a hard time comparing LB's game to any player.

I guess he has the flavor of multiple players.

- His first step is KJ-like.
- His set shot from deep reminds me of ???
- His D can become somewhat Sidney Moncreif-like? (Without the golf clubs.)
- His length is sort of like Michael Cooper???

Before we annoint LB the next-great-Suns-PG, I want to see him develop the consistency. If he can do that, this guy is going to light the league on fire for years to come.

His first step to the hole (going left) is cat-quick. He's now finishing strong, keeping the defender on his right hip. That's a pretty good combination.
 

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This includes making the defense work so they are tired at the end of the game. One-on-One only makes one defender tired.

Bull. If you have to go one-on-one because the defense is denying the ball to your teammates, then those defenders are working pretty damn hard. Guarding guys without the ball is just as hard, maybe even harder, than guarding the guy who has it.

If a PG is ignoring teammates in good position so that he can take shots himself, of course that's a mistake. But that's not what we're talking about.
 

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We're comparing LB to KJ???? I'm assuming that these are people who never saw KJ play during his prime. This has got to be one of the silliest discussions I've ever seen on this board. I'm mean we're talking about one of only 3 players in NBA history to average over 20 points and 10 assists for 3 consecutive years while shooting an astounding 50%. He's ranked 6th in NBA HISTORY with a career 9.1 assists per game. Would you like to know the 5 players who are better then KJ in that regard? Magic, Stockton, Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas and Kidd by a hair at 9.3. (KJ will be back to the 5 spot as Kidd's career winds down) In fact the only reason he didn't average closer to 10 assists for his career is because he was gracious enough to pass the batton during his retirement year and give his minutes to Jason Kidd and Steve Nash. This is crazy that we're comparing an unproven, quality bench warmer who scores 20 points in a single game to a guy of KJ's stature in NBA history. LB at his very best still isn't even half the player that KJ was in his worst year. Sorry for being harsh, but this is downright silly.
 
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sly fly said:
I'm having a hard time comparing LB's game to any player.

I guess he has the flavor of multiple players.

- His first step is KJ-like.
- His set shot from deep reminds me of ???
- His D can become somewhat Sidney Moncreif-like? (Without the golf clubs.)
- His length is sort of like Michael Cooper???

Before we annoint LB the next-great-Suns-PG, I want to see him develop the consistency. If he can do that, this guy is going to light the league on fire for years to come.

His first step to the hole (going left) is cat-quick. He's now finishing strong, keeping the defender on his right hip. That's a pretty good combination.

I agree with you, I can't put LB's stlye next to anyone in the league (past or present) that I have seen and say they are similar.
 
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