Why 76ers trade makes sense.

[jlove]

Check the 3-way with Philly/Miami/Phoenix I proposed in the Miami-Yahoo thread.....http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/miami-riley-hot-after-amare-per-yahoo-148056-4.html

 

[Folster]

Timing is everything when it comes to contracts in the NBA. Right now we are discussing Stoudemire for Iguodala, but next year we could probably get Iguodala for Richardson and second rounder. Large expiring contracts are like gold especially next year with a new and restrictive collective bargaining agreement on the horizon.

I'm still puzzled as to why we had to give up two unprotected first rounders to trade Kurt Thomas' expiring contract especially considering Seattle traded him a couple months later and received another first rounder for him.

 

[Chaplin]

Timing is everything when it comes to contracts in the NBA. Right now we are discussing Stoudemire for Iguodala, but next year we could probably get Iguodala for Richardson and second rounder. Large expiring contracts are like gold especially next year with a new and restrictive collective bargaining agreement on the horizon.

I'm still puzzled as to why we had to give up two unprotected first rounders to trade Kurt Thomas' expiring contract especially considering Seattle traded him a couple months later and received another first rounder for him.

I'm not supporting trading away 2 unprotected 1st rounders, but KT's contract was an albatross on our books. He wasn't earning anywhere near what his contract was. It was a good idea to try to shed that salary, but they ended up being completely wrong in what they did to do it.

 

[Folster]

I'm not supporting trading away 2 unprotected 1st rounders, but KT's contract was an albatross on our books. He wasn't earning anywhere near what his contract was. It was a good idea to try to shed that salary, but they ended up being completely wrong in what they did to do it.

The point being is we could have waited a few months and traded him for a first rounder. As we both know the luxury tax is calculated by the payroll at the end of the season not the beginning. My broader point is that we need to hold onto J Rich until mid-season next year when we can move him to a payroll crunched team for some real value or simply let him expire.

 

[Bufalay]

Iguodala's contract maybe have been an overreaction by the 6ers a year ago, but there is a reason he got it.

As opposed to Richardson who was given his contract for no reason at all.

 

[Sunburn]

Careful what you wish for. In the world of the new CBA, Iggy's contract could become a nightmare.

 

[elindholm]

As opposed to Richardson who was given his contract for no reason at all.

LOL

 

[Arizona's Finest]

As opposed to Richardson who was given his contract for no reason at all.

LOL

Yes this was funny.

Unless you were being sarcastic, because Richardson is WILDLY overpaid.

 

[Chaplin]

Yes this was funny.

Unless you were being sarcastic, because Richardson is WILDLY overpaid.

He wasn't when he was the 1st option and playing well in Charlotte.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

He wasn't when he was the 1st option and playing well in Charlotte.

Chap where are you going with this? He was traded from Golden State for a rookie draft pick who hasnt' seen the light of day since and then was traded here for 40 yr old Raja Bell and Fat Boris and his fat contract - another player viewed higher here then anywhere else.

You know guys like Mike Miller, Jim Jackson, Antoine Walker, and Rudy Gay were all seen as #1 options on their respective teams too? Does that mean they are good players?

Jesus J Rich has been seen as a "good" player in close to 7 years. Have you watched an NBA game since 2003?

 

[Chaplin]

Chap where are you going with this? He was traded from Golden State for a rookie draft pick who hasnt' seen the light of day since and then was traded here for 40 yr old Raja Bell and Fat Boris and his fat contract - another player viewed higher here then anywhere else.

You know guys like Mike Miller, Jim Jackson, Antoine Walker, and Rudy Gay were all seen as #1 options on their respective teams too? Does that mean they are good players?

Jesus J Rich has been seen as a "good" player in close to 7 years. Have you watched an NBA game since 2003?

Give me a break with your "my fandom is bigger than your fandom" stuff.

You overrate Igoudala because you are a UofA grad. Period. I'm also a UofA grad, and I do like him, but his contract is a deal-breaker for me. He's the #1 option on a bad team where he has to be the #1 option (just like JRich in Golden State and Charlotte). There is nothing that says he won't regress just like JRich did.

And JRich is still a good player. Not worth his contract, sure. But in two years if we got Igoudala, we'd probably be saying the exact same thing. So do you live with this for a year and half or 4 and a half years? I'll take the shorter time, thank you.

 

[Bufalay]

Chap where are you going with this? He was traded from Golden State for a rookie draft pick who hasnt' seen the light of day since and then was traded here for 40 yr old Raja Bell and Fat Boris and his fat contract - another player viewed higher here then anywhere else.

You know guys like Mike Miller, Jim Jackson, Antoine Walker, and Rudy Gay were all seen as #1 options on their respective teams too? Does that mean they are good players?

Jesus J Rich has been seen as a "good" player in close to 7 years. Have you watched an NBA game since 2003?

Its not that hard to look up a player's stats. Where are you coming up with "7 years"?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Give me a break with your "my fandom is bigger than your fandom" stuff.

You overrate Igoudala because you are a UofA grad. Period. I'm also a UofA grad, and I do like him, but his contract is a deal-breaker for me. He's the #1 option on a bad team where he has to be the #1 option (just like JRich in Golden State and Charlotte). There is nothing that says he won't regress just like JRich did.

And JRich is still a good player. Not worth his contract, sure. But in two years if we got Igoudala, we'd probably be saying the exact same thing. So do you live with this for a year and half or 4 and a half years? I'll take the shorter time, thank you.

THANK YOU! AZ is bordering on delusional in this thread.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Wow you guys have the Suns glasses on here big time. You realize that NO ONE else in the NBA values Jason Richardson the way that you guys are talking about him right?

Clearly you haven't been paying any attention at all to what I've been saying about Richardson. I've thought he's a dud for awhile. Unfortunately because you are mainlining the U of A kool aid, the thing you don't realize is that Richardson and Igoudala are comparable players. J Rich shoots better, Iggy is a bit better in rebounding/distributing, but they essentially bring about the same. There are tons of erratic swingmen in the NBA, and they're a dime a dozen. I sure as hell don't want to be committed to one that's making about 15 per the rest of his contract. Why in the hell would anyone want to pay Iggy that, when you could pay Amare around the same, who is much more valuable?

Iguodala's contract maybe have been an overreaction by the 6ers a year ago, but there is a reason he got it.

You can use that ridiculous logic to justify any contract. Well maybe Isaiah may have overreacted to the Jerome James/Eddy Curry/50 other contracts, but there is a reason they got it...classic logical fallacy. Iggy's contract is stupid, J Rich's contract is stupid, you're trying to justify money paid by Philly who also gave huge contracts to Dalembert and Elton Brand? Since you're the NBA expert here, and nobody has watched since 03, I figured you'd see, but if you hadn't noticed, the NBA is littered with horrible contracts. To take on one of these horrible contracts with a shrinking cap and limited resources would be beyond stupid, especially for a good but not great player.

His game is not a first rate scorer. But hes forced to be that because he is all Phily has. His game is more Lebron James then Kobe Bryant in that respect.

PLEASE don't ever mention Iggy ever again in the same breath of Lebron or Kobe. You call out people here for NBA knowledge, and make this kind of comment? Kobe and Lebron are transcendent players who turn average players into complimentary pieces and get to NBA finals. Iggy is a middling player on an average team whose greatest accomplishment is taking his team to one and done in the playoffs. To call him a poor man's version of Lebron/Kobe would be charitable, perhaps homeless man's version?

Let's play a game. Why don't you and Chap go ask you friends outside the state of Arizona who know the NBA, and see if they would rather have Iguodala or Jason Richardson? LOL its not even close.

For whatever reason, you still don't seem to get the point here. I don't know how to explain this more clearly to you. Most people would consider them comparable players. Even being charitable, I think most would say that Iggy is nominally better than J Rich. HOWEVER, once you consider their respective contract situations, (which you conveniently ignore at every turn) it's obvious that adding Iggy makes no sense to anyone with half a brain.

All these people wanting draft picks and cap space are the same that moan and complain about Sarver's/Kerr's trades these past two years. You can't have it both ways.

This is a Glenn Beck style leap, I'm impressed at your ability to connect the dots! Most savvy fans realize that this current group ain't gonna sniff a championship, so I believe most would prefer a coherent direction. If that direction is to rebuild, then do it the right way, and picking up a bad contract that handcuffs you is clearly not the way to do it. Hence the desire for young talent/draft picks/cap space, not decent players with bad contracts. I hope you can grasp that.

 

[elindholm]

He was traded from Golden State for a rookie draft pick who hasnt' seen the light of day since

Richardson is perceived, probably correctly, to have something of an attitude problem, and his off-court record isn't exactly stellar. But Iguodala has a pretty poor personal reputation as well.

and then was traded here for 40 yr old Raja Bell and Fat Boris and his fat contract - another player viewed higher here then anywhere else.

That's just completely incorrect and I can't even believe you wrote it with a straight face. Charlotte genuinely wanted Diaw and was, originally, very excited to get him. You'll recall that, after the trade, Charlotte went on a bit of a run, and Diaw got a lot of the credit. Charlotte saw Richardson as a slight negative asset and wanted to get rid of him -- which is exactly how Philadelphia sees Iguodala right now.

You know guys like Mike Miller, Jim Jackson, Antoine Walker, and Rudy Gay were all seen as #1 options on their respective teams too? Does that mean they are good players?

Historically, Richardson has been more effective as a first-option scorer than Iguodala has been. That is a statistical fact. Iguodala fills up the box score in more categories, but that doesn't automatically make him a better player.

Jesus J Rich has been seen as a "good" player in close to 7 years. Have you watched an NBA game since 2003?

Wasn't it just a few years ago that the Warriors upset the top-seeded Mavericks in the playoffs?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Okay guys - You are all right. I would rather have Jason Richardson then the younger, better defending, better rebounding, more athletic, Andre Iguodala.

I am obviously a devout UA homer and I must be crazy to think Richardson is a washed up gunner and that Iggy might ya know, still be getting better.

Happy?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Clearly you haven't been paying any attention at all to what I've been saying about Richardson. I've thought he's a dud for awhile. Unfortunately because you are mainlining the U of A kool aid, the thing you don't realize is that Richardson and Igoudala are comparable players. J Rich shoots better, Iggy is a bit better in rebounding/distributing, but they essentially bring about the same. There are tons of erratic swingmen in the NBA, and they're a dime a dozen. I sure as hell don't want to be committed to one that's making about 15 per the rest of his contract. Why in the hell would anyone want to pay Iggy that, when you could pay Amare around the same, who is much more valuable?

I guess will just have to disagree. I think you underate Iguodala and making arguments like "Jason Richardson is better shooter" when he plays with Steve Nash on this team and gets the opponents worst premeter defender on a nightly basis is pretty silly to me. Again the only thing you can point to is a higher shooting % while Iguodala is a better defender, much better passer and function within the offense we have here, a better rebounder (which we need with our current bigs) and IS YOUNGER AND GETTING BETTER.

So no. I don't think they are comprable as players, make sense? Is Joe Johnson a "dime a dozen" swing man too? I think Iguodala is closer to Joe career arc then Richardson's for sure.

You can use that ridiculous logic to justify any contract. Well maybe Isaiah may have overreacted to the Jerome James/Eddy Curry/50 other contracts, but there is a reason they got it...classic logical fallacy. Iggy's contract is stupid, J Rich's contract is stupid, you're trying to justify money paid by Philly who also gave huge contracts to Dalembert and Elton Brand? Since you're the NBA expert here, and nobody has watched since 03, I figured you'd see, but if you hadn't noticed, the NBA is littered with horrible contracts. To take on one of these horrible contracts with a shrinking cap and limited resources would be beyond stupid, especially for a good but not great player.

I am not going to argue that Iggy's contract is more then I would like. But my point is I think he has a much better chance to GROW into contract then players who you listed and are wildly overpaid with little to no production. You notice a theme here? It's not magic that players all of a sudden look a lot better once on the Suns. You can agree with that, no? So presumably Iggy will get better here, right? Maybe ALOT better, right? And Iguodala is a young guy - I think like 26 IIRC. He is on the upswing to be sure.

PLEASE don't ever mention Iggy ever again in the same breath of Lebron or Kobe. You call out people here for NBA knowledge, and make this kind of comment? Kobe and Lebron are transcendent players who turn average players into complimentary pieces and get to NBA finals. Iggy is a middling player on an average team whose greatest accomplishment is taking his team to one and done in the playoffs. To call him a poor man's version of Lebron/Kobe would be charitable, perhaps homeless man's version?

Bro I know you are not this dumb so don't pull out the dumb kids argument. Did you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY think I was comparing Iguodala to Lebron or Kobe? Or was I maybe using an analogy to describe the type of game Iggy plays? You know you can compare players games without saying they are as good as somebody right? Right? Just because someone was listed in a paragraph, doesn't mean I was comparing anybody. Try reading what I actually wrote please.

For whatever reason, you still don't seem to get the point here. I don't know how to explain this more clearly to you. Most people would consider them comparable players. Even being charitable, I think most would say that Iggy is nominally better than J Rich. HOWEVER, once you consider their respective contract situations, (which you conveniently ignore at every turn) it's obvious that adding Iggy makes no sense to anyone with half a brain.




This is a Glenn Beck style leap, I'm impressed at your ability to connect the dots! Most savvy fans realize that this current group ain't gonna sniff a championship, so I believe most would prefer a coherent direction. If that direction is to rebuild, then do it the right way, and picking up a bad contract that handcuffs you is clearly not the way to do it. Hence the desire for young talent/draft picks/cap space, not decent players with bad contracts. I hope you can grasp that.

Dude I want to get a piece back for Amare. I don't want to count on Kerr or Sarver swinging a FA or draft pick. I think in terms of young talent, Iguodala has room be ALOT better TEAM player then JRich ever was or ever will be. I don't love his contract. But I feel ,AGAIN, that he will get better once he comes here. I wish we could get Iggy without trading Amare because I think, the three of Nash, Iggy, and STAT would be alot better then people think. Maybe Top 3 in West better.

Obviously you don't. That's okay. I guess we evaluate players differently. But don't try to call me out as a homer because I like Iggys game and think his career is being killed in Philly. I also like guys OJ Mayo and think he would be viewed as a MUCH better player if he was on a better team with better complementry parts. He went to USC, am I a Pac-10 homer now?

 

[jagu]

I don't see a trade happening anymore but Iguodala is not a bad fit like so many people here are complaining.

One thing is that he doesn't suck. He is a good finisher at the rim and he is a really good defensive player. I think with him and Dalembert, along with Grant Hill and Lopez, the Suns can actually be "decent" on defense. However, inside scoring immediately becomes a concern as Amare is the primary inside weapon which Dalembert or Lopez cannot be. Teams can press the 3 point line and relax on the inside without double teaming anyone. I still think the Suns can score at will with Nash running the point though. However, when teams press Nash late in games he will have problems if the Suns don't have someone to just post up and drop easy high percentage buckets. Who knows what will happen but now I am leaning towards Kerr resigning Amare Stoudemire and continuing our "good but not championship good" path of life.

If the Suns can get Speights, Iguodala for Amare...that my friends is a really good move.

 

[jagu]

What about Amare to the Nets for the #1, and whatever other garbage they want to give us. Then we can put Wall at the SG spot and Nash as PG and then just let Wall become the next Lebron. Wall is ridiculously awesome.

 

[elindholm]

What about Amare to the Nets for the #1, and whatever other garbage they want to give us.

Remind me why the Nets would trade their unprotected pick for Stoudemire?

 

[jagu]

Remind me why the Nets would trade their unprotected pick for Stoudemire?

All the losing has made Kiki a little wacko and he signs off on the deal? Or he gets a brain transplant and receives Steve Kerr's brain as the replacement?

 

[Mr. Boldin]

1. Iggy is not that great of a defensive player. He is good, not great, nothing special.

2. To say Richardson has a comparable game to Iggy is just as crazy as saying Iggy is in the LeBron James mold.

3. Richardson is by far the better shooter, while Iggy is by far the better rebounder, ball handler, and passer.

Its a valid debate if the Suns should take on that contract or not. However, the next best option is to keep Amare, because the Suns arent going to receive a better offer than this. Amare isnt thrilled about going to Philly and that is the main reason why this deal isnt going to happen.