why are people getting so mad that we have not signed warner

[Stout]

How can they have less than no separation? If Warner goes to the 49ers, what are the odds they make a real offer for Boldin? What would everyone think then? Warner, Boldin, Bruce, Gore, V. Davis and their young WR that I can't think of his name right now. The line is still an issue but that would certainly be an offense that is hard to sneeze at.

Not to mention how it would affect the Cardinals offense. Unproven Leinart with Breaston, Doucet and Fitz all working together for the first time, likely in Whis' "preferred" offense that has looked terrible every time we've seen it.

Ohmygodohmygodohmygodtheskyisfallingtheskyisfallingtheskyisfallingaaaaaah!

LOL

We have Boldin under contract for 2 years and, unless San Fran offers to trade us their entire draft, there is no way in hades that he's going there. With an old-man Bruce who might not even be there, with headcase Vernon Davis, with no offensive line and a run-first head coach, Warner would probably be the first QB to be killed on the field.

Oh, and to basically say that the 49ers receivers are just as good as Fitz is just plain pathetic.

 

[D-Dogg]

Oh, and to basically say that the 49ers receivers are just as good as Fitz is just plain pathetic.

Three things:

1) All their receivers TOGETHER aren't as good as Fitz.

2) You are right in that we would NEVER trade Boldin to SF...EVER. Whether we let Kurt go there or not. Completely different situations.

3) Weren't you one of the FO bashers from years past? It's wild to see the role reversals going on right now.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

2) You are right in that we would NEVER trade Boldin to SF...EVER. Whether we let Kurt go there or not. Completely different situations.

It would have to be a Hershel Walker type deal for that to happen.

 

[Buckybird]

It's not like the Niners were as bad as the Lions or Rams. They ripped our hearts out in 07 and played us very tough in both games last year. The idea that Warner would be completely helpless there isn't based on any logic that I can see.

I agree. They have already upgraded at WR with Brandon Jones who is very solid. And Josh Morgan is only gonna get better. The Niners will be much better with Warner and they could very well be better than us next season.

 

[JeffGollin]

I'll tell you why I'm upset.

Overall I'm upset because you'd be hard pressed to find another NFL team who has done zero to help itself in free agency thus far (I won't count Keith Lewis til he has a jersey # and McFadden remains a "hope").

Normally, you could make the case that the top two NFL teams don't need to do anything because they're already good; but you can throw that out the window should Warner join Antonio S and Arrington and jump ship.

Specific to Warner - the case can be made that without what I'd term "the multi-tentacled passing dragon" (consisting mainly of Kurt, Fitz, Q, Breaston and the O-line) we very well could have not won even our weak division and the franchise would remain in the NFL dustbin.

Instead, we were one play away from winning the Super Bowl and the team deservedly earned the reputation of at the very least being "formidable."

Remove Warner from this equation and the Cards would go right back to being "ordinary."

Cardinal management and ownership owe Warner for bringing the franchise to where it is and risk "seizing defeat out of the jaws of victory" by not getting the freakin' deal done.

As for Warner & Bartelstein "asking for too much" - if I were a betting man, I'd place all my chips on the Cardinals starting this game of chicken by "playing cute" thereby making it OK for Kurt and his agent to play cute right back.

It may very well cost us our QB. And the playoffs. (Playoffs?)

 

[Hopper15]

Sacks allowed by SF = 55 in a primarily running offense

Sacks allowed by AZ = 28 in a primarily passing offense

Logic enough for me

Mike Martz runs a primary running offense? You're logic is terrible lol.

 

[lobo]

Short Answer....bad poker players....no patience

If we woulda' won the big game they would still be ragging about something...but that makes it fun.

 

[Stout]

Three things:

1) All their receivers TOGETHER aren't as good as Fitz.

2) You are right in that we would NEVER trade Boldin to SF...EVER. Whether we let Kurt go there or not. Completely different situations.

3) Weren't you one of the FO bashers from years past? It's wild to see the role reversals going on right now.

I know, wild, isn't it? I've just seen too much factual evidence that shows building through the draft, getting bargains in FA, and maybe every once in a while splashing the dough for a bigger FA is the way to go.

 

[Stout]

Cardinal management and ownership owe Warner for bringing the franchise to where it is and risk "seizing defeat out of the jaws of victory" by not getting the freakin' deal done.

Jeff, you're disappointing me. You're overreacting the way I used to overreact.

Your statement above is patently outrageous. By that logic, we should tell Warner that we brought his career to where it is again and he owes us for that. No, we do not owe him for the past. Past is past; we and Warner need to look forward. He does not deserve a single penny for the past. He deserves a big contract for what he will be doing in the future. I have no problem giving him a nice sized contract with good guaranteed money--for a 38 year old QB--and all reports show that is exactly what we're doing. I have a big problem giving a huge contract with giant chunks of guaranteed money to Warner.

 

[red desert]

I'll tell you why I'm upset.

Overall I'm upset because you'd be hard pressed to find another NFL team who has done zero to help itself in free agency thus far (I won't count Keith Lewis til he has a jersey # and McFadden remains a "hope").

Normally, you could make the case that the top two NFL teams don't need to do anything because they're already good; but you can throw that out the window should Warner join Antonio S and Arrington and jump ship.

Specific to Warner - the case can be made that without what I'd term "the multi-tentacled passing dragon" (consisting mainly of Kurt, Fitz, Q, Breaston and the O-line) we very well could have not won even our weak division and the franchise would remain in the NFL dustbin.

Instead, we were one play away from winning the Super Bowl and the team deservedly earned the reputation of at the very least being "formidable."

Remove Warner from this equation and the Cards would go right back to being "ordinary."

Cardinal management and ownership owe Warner for bringing the franchise to where it is and risk "seizing defeat out of the jaws of victory" by not getting the freakin' deal done.

As for Warner & Bartelstein "asking for too much" - if I were a betting man, I'd place all my chips on the Cardinals starting this game of chicken by "playing cute" thereby making it OK for Kurt and his agent to play cute right back.

It may very well cost us our QB. And the playoffs. (Playoffs?)

As usual, you make your point quite eloquently.

Thank you for stating what I have been trying to say in my posts but doing a poor job of it compared to you, Jeff.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Seems to me just as many are angry at Warner and his agent.

Yep.

The number one thing that angers me is the 2 weeks wasted on trying to get this done, and neither side getting the job done.

It is the sheer stupidity of the situation.

The only thing that was getting under my skin about the Cardinals is that they hadn't done ANYTHING with the "CORE" of the team yet.

Thus reading about the Wilson extension talks makes RM, very happy.

:number1:

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Remove Warner from this equation and the Cards would go right back to being "ordinary."

Agreed. In order for the team to prosper without Warner, the team would need to substantially up the running game, and they have done nothing so far to do so. And based on the past they won't.

I'd place all my chips on the Cardinals starting this game of chicken by "playing cute" thereby making it OK for Kurt and his agent to play cute right back.

It may very well cost us our QB. And the playoffs. (Playoffs?)

And this is were my anger comes from. Playing it "cute" which I agree is happening. I stick by my belief that if the deal doesn't get done the Cardinals will have wasted cap room that will equal the amount that is causing the prevention of this deal getting done. AND NO, I am not talking about the money set aside for injuries and bonuses, I am talking about cap room to be used on players.

Either pay Warner or get to work on the running game. But doing nothing to help either situation will lead to.........

"Oh No, we suck again"

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I have no problem giving him a nice sized contract with good guaranteed money--for a 38 year old QB--and all reports show that is exactly what we're doing. I have a big problem giving a huge contract with giant chunks of guaranteed money to Warner.

And there is the gap that for some reason neither the agent or the front office could close in two weeks. That, IMO, is pretty pathetic on BOTH sides.

 

[moklerman]

Warner would probably be the first QB to be killed on the field.

How can you be so critical of what (you think) I said and then say stuff like this?

Oh, and to basically say that the 49ers receivers are just as good as Fitz is just plain pathetic.

Then why did you say it? I certainly didn't. But to claim that the Cardinals WR's are good at getting separation is completely missing the point of what they're good at.

Boldin and Fitz are masters at getting position and outdueling DB's for the ball. And if the Niners added Warner and Boldin they would have a good chance to be a good offense. I don't hope for it or predict it but "IF" it happened somehow let's not act like they would be terrible and Warner would actually die.

The Cardinals o-line isn't exactly stellar in protecting Warner from harm and is downright mediocre in the running game. The Niners may or may not be able to provide something similar in '09. With TE support and a non-Martz offense are you really willing to say that they won't be any better next year? Regardless of who their QB is.

 

[perivolaki]

The Cardinals o-line isn't exactly stellar in protecting Warner from harm and is downright mediocre in the running game.

The Cardinals were 6th in sacks allowed per pass attempt. That sounds stellar to me.

 

[Buckybird]

I'd place all my chips on the Cardinals starting this game of chicken by "playing cute" thereby making it OK for Kurt and his agent to play cute right back.

Thats what I think happens and Kurt will be signed by either the Niners or Cards sometime Monday. I know most think the Niners thing is crap, but I think it's legit. We will see!!!

 

[PJ1]

The Cardinals were 6th in sacks allowed per pass attempt. That sounds stellar to me.

Not to mention Kurt's lack of mobility. Herman Munster moved faster.

 

[Buckybird]

The only thing that was getting under my skin about the Cardinals is that they hadn't done ANYTHING with the "CORE" of the team yet.



:number1:

Thats what has me so mad also. I understand the Warner situation, but to have to franchise Dansby 2 years in a row is ridiculous. How about the Fitz fiasco last year? Graves always talks a good game but never gets things done in a timely fashion which usually costs the team more money!!! The snail strikes again.

 

[moklerman]

The Cardinals were 6th in sacks allowed per pass attempt. That sounds stellar to me.

I didn't say anything about sacks. We were talking about whether or not Warner might stay healthy in SF and regardless of the sack numbers, Warner has taken a ton of hits behind the Card's o-line. I don't think he would take any more hits if he was in SF. More sacks perhaps but not more hits.

 

[overseascardfan]

Thats what has me so mad also. I understand the Warner situation, but to have to franchise Dansby 2 years in a row is ridiculous. How about the Fitz fiasco last year? Graves always talks a good game but never gets things done in a timely fashion which usually costs the team more money!!! The snail strikes again.

I'll agree with you about Fitz and Dansby but when a 38 year old QB that came off ONE really good year is trying to weasel $14.5M out of you and say its not about the money then I agree with what Graves is doing. Kurt has said he wants Anquan back but his salary demands would mean we would not be able to give Boldin a raise, further giving him something to cry about and eventually lead to a trade. Kurt should take the $10M let AZ use the other $4M to extend Boldin and everyone would be happy, I know I would.

 

[Buckybird]

Agreed. In order for the team to prosper without Warner, the team would need to substantially up the running game, and they have done nothing so far to do so. And based on the past they won't.



And this is were my anger comes from. Playing it "cute" which I agree is happening. I stick by my belief that if the deal doesn't get done the Cardinals will have wasted cap room that will equal the amount that is causing the prevention of this deal getting done. AND NO, I am not talking about the money set aside for injuries and bonuses, I am talking about cap room to be used on players.

Either pay Warner or get to work on the running game. But doing nothing to help either situation will lead to.........

"Oh No, we suck again"

Rugby, I always enjoy your posts and your common sense behind them. I nominate you and Mitch for new GM of the Cards after Graves is fired.

 

[JeffGollin]

Can We Talk Dollars and Sense, Please?

I don't have inside info on the economics of the un-made deal, and you'll have to buy into my assumptions to accept the following; but for what it's worth:

Assumptions

1. Without Warner, the Cards might not have made the playoffs and most likely wouldn't have gotten very far into the playoffs if they had.

2. Getting to the playoffs and the Super Bowl made money for the Cardinals (a) in ticket sales and tv revenue from the 3 playoff games and the Super Bowl, (b) increased merch sales nationwide and (c) no doubt an increased backlog on their waiting list for ticket sales (i.e. an economic security blanket for the Bidwills).

3. Some bright marketing mind could put a dollars & cents number on what this has meant to the Cardinals' bottom line.

4. I'm guessing that the revenue Warner is bringing in for the Cardinals will turn out to be much greater than the compensation he is asking.

Let's say Kurt seeks $30-mill over 2 years (of which $15-mil is guaranteed). The question we all should be asking is: "Will Kurt's presence - and his impact on our success - be worth $15-mil a year ($7.5-mil guaranteed) to the Cardinals for the next two years?"

(And, I also feel that - if both sides feel that Kurt was underpaid for his success during the past 2 years, including playing at a high level with a brace on his elbow 2 years ago - this should be considered as well. "Not being grateful" (& possibly reneging on "we'll take care of you later" commitments appears to be a Cardinal ownership/mgt. trait and one that might cost us Q and other players as well).

That's how I see it - Accountants, start your engines!!!!!!

 

[Buckybird]

I don't have inside info on the economics of the un-made deal, and you'll have to buy into my assumptions to accept the following; but for what it's worth:

Assumptions

1. Without Warner, the Cards might not have made the playoffs and most likely wouldn't have gotten very far into the playoffs if they had.

2. Getting to the playoffs and the Super Bowl made money for the Cardinals (a) in ticket sales and tv revenue from the 3 playoff games and the Super Bowl, (b) increased merch sales nationwide and (c) no doubt an increased backlog on their waiting list for ticket sales (i.e. an economic security blanket for the Bidwills).

3. Some bright marketing mind could put a dollars & cents number on what this has meant to the Cardinals' bottom line.

4. I'm guessing that the revenue Warner is bringing in for the Cardinals will turn out to be much greater than the compensation he is asking.

Let's say Kurt seeks $30-mill over 2 years (of which $15-mil is guaranteed). The question we all should be asking is: "Will Kurt's presence - and his impact on our success - be worth $15-mil a year ($7.5-mil guaranteed) to the Cardinals for the next two years?"

(And, I also feel that - if both sides feel that Kurt was underpaid for his success during the past 2 years, including playing at a high level with a brace on his elbow 2 years ago - this should be considered as well. "Not being grateful" (& possibly reneging on "we'll take care of you later" commitments appears to be a Cardinal ownership/mgt. trait and one that might cost us Q and other players as well).

That's how I see it - Accountants, start your engines!!!!!!

Think the Cards will get grilled nationally and locally by the media if Kurt gets away or decides to retire over money? I'm on the fence either way, but the perception in the media and future players could get ugly!!!

 

[Stout]

How can you be so critical of what (you think) I said and then say stuff like this?
Then why did you say it? I certainly didn't. But to claim that the Cardinals WR's are good at getting separation is completely missing the point of what they're good at.

Boldin and Fitz are masters at getting position and outdueling DB's for the ball. And if the Niners added Warner and Boldin they would have a good chance to be a good offense. I don't hope for it or predict it but "IF" it happened somehow let's not act like they would be terrible and Warner would actually die.

The Cardinals o-line isn't exactly stellar in protecting Warner from harm and is downright mediocre in the running game. The Niners may or may not be able to provide something similar in '09. With TE support and a non-Martz offense are you really willing to say that they won't be any better next year? Regardless of who their QB is.

Mokler, just STOP with the silliness, will you? San Fran IS NOT GETTING BOLDIN. Stop adding lunatic impossibilities to try and make your point better. And yes, our receivers are built around positioning more than separation, but I'll take their lack of separation over the 49ers lack of...er...quality starting receivers any day off the week.

 

[moklerman]

Mokler, just STOP with the silliness, will you? San Fran IS NOT GETTING BOLDIN. Stop adding lunatic impossibilities to try and make your point better.

So in a thread where someone claims the 49ers' line is so horrendously bad that Warner will literally die on the field you find the remote, yet possible hypothetical of Boldin being traded to SF to be the inconceivable statement? Pennington went to the Dolphins. Curtis Martin went from the Patriots to the Jets. Bruce went from the Rams to the 49ers. Division trades happen all the time. Familiarity and all that. Not to mention Boldin has demanded a trade and said he won't play for Arizona, the 49ers are in real need of a WR and have the cap space/draft picks to make a deal. I don't think it will happen but please take these things in the spirit that they're offered. The whole point was based on the remote chance of Warner going to SF.

And yes, our receivers are built around positioning more than separation, but I'll take their lack of separation over the 49ers lack of...er...quality starting receivers any day off the week.

Good for you. What's your point? I never said their receiving corps was better or even preferable to the Cardinals. Only that the Cardinals receivers aren't know for their ability to seperate from coverage. If anything it's the contrary.