Why did the Mavs trade for Walker?!

[cardsunsfan]

I really don't understand it. Walker has always been a lover % guy. I don't care how many points a player gets, if he has a low % he is hurting the team, actually that should mean he scores less! Now the only guy who I can think of that that might not be true with is Iverson because his teams in the past have been good even with his low % Not exactly sure why? Is it because he takes all the difficult shots and lets his teammates have the easy ones?

 

[elindholm]

Role players have the luxury of shot selection (if they choose). It's somewhat easier for them to shoot a high percentage, because if they aren't open or where they want to be on the floor, they just pass it off to one of the team's leaders.

Every team has one or two players who take(s) a lot of difficult shots, mainly because they wind up as the best option when the shot clock is winding down and nothing more promising has materialized, but also because they are trusted with the ball when the game is on the line. With defenses as sophisticated and as physical as they are today, I think the days of first-option guards who shoot 50% are over. Even 45% is exceptional under those circumstances. Lofty shooting percentages are mainly the territory of inside players and guys who shoot only when they're open.

Finally, in Iverson's specific case, he draws so much defense when he penetrates that his teammates often have easy follow-up opportunities. So his low shooting percentage doesn't hurt his team as much as it might otherwise.

None of that applies to Walker, of course. I have long felt he was overrated. At the beginning of this season, he was playing terrifically, and I was forced to retract many of the bad things I said about him. But now he is reverting to form. I think his minutes will continue to get cut (in general, leaving open the option for a great game here and there) as Dallas gets more serious about winning.

 

[slinslin]

Walker has been Dallas' best player for this entire season.

 

[scotsman13]

Originally posted by slinslin
Walker has been Dallas' best player for this entire season.

slin please tell me that you are joking here? walker is one of the single more overrated players in nba history. i wouldnt trade a second round pick for him.

 

[slinslin]

Yeah, whatever.

I am watching many Mavs games and if you can't see what Walker is contributing in terms of creating scoring opportunities for teammates and all the other intagnibles I can't help you.

I wonder how many players are not overrated in your opinion and you wouldn't want them at any cost...

Kobe Bryant, Antoine Walker....

 

[George O'Brien]

Walker's problem in Dallas is the same as it was in Boston. He is more interested in filling his stat sheets than in making his team better. He loves to shoot the three and he is bad at it, he rarely passes and puts up bad shots when teammates are open, and he does not do the dirty work on the defensive end.

That being said, he is actually very smooth at the low post when he stays inside and has a world of talent. Unfortunately, teams tend to pay big bucks for guys who can score and don't pay much for guys who do the dirty work.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Walker's problem in Dallas is the same as it was in Boston. He is more interested in filling his stat sheets than in making his team better. He loves to shoot the three and he is bad at it, he rarely passes and puts up bad shots when teammates are open, and he does not do the dirty work on the defensive end.

That being said, he is actually very smooth at the low post when he stays inside and has a world of talent. Unfortunately, teams tend to pay big bucks for guys who can score and don't pay much for guys who do the dirty work.

George, Antoine Walker does have problems, but he is a very good passing big man. He's averaging almost 5 assists per game for the Mavericks. He is shooting 33% from beyond the arc for his career, but only 27% this season. His biggest problems or his infatuation with outside shooting, and probably more importantly his soft as butter defense.

That said, if you think that was a bad trade for the Dallas Mavericks you are just crazy. They unloaded Raef LaFrentz's long-term contract and got him return of player that is just much better than him with a shorter contract.

Joe Mama

 

[fordronken]

Regardless of how great a player he is, can't we all agree that he's better to have on your team than Raef LaFrentz? He has a shorter contract, and the Mavs are a team trying to win now, and last I checked, Raef isn't exactly playing basketball right now.

Imagine hearing that Antoine Walker is on the block. As a joke, you say, "I'll give you Raef LaFrentz." Then, for some unfathomable reason...they accept. You'd be an idiot not to make that trade.

 

[F-Dog]

The problem with 'Toine on the Mavs is that he gives them what they need least (playmaking) but not anything else.

You can argue back and forth about his stats, but if the end result of Walker being out there is more shots for him and fewer shots for Nowitzki and Nash, then Walker is hurting the team on offense. It's clear enough already that he kills them on defense.

The more Walker minutes are taken by Najera or Josh Howard, the better the Mavs will be, IMO. By the playoffs, Walker might find himself riding the bench full-time.


To me, it looks like the Mavericks took a one-year hit by bringing in 'Toine for LaFrentz (who was a better fit, even though he wasn't a real center or good enough to solve the team's problems). What they've gotten back is an expiring contract for next year--the trade deadline in 2005 is when we'll see whether the Walker trade was worth it for Dallas.

 

[scotsman13]

Originally posted by slinslin
I wonder how many players are not overrated in your opinion and you wouldn't want them at any cost...

Kobe Bryant, Antoine Walker....

slin, i didnt say i wouldnt want kobe at any cost. the point that i have tried to make through this whole thing is that no matter what kobe isnt the end all be all of this team, and he has never proven that he can make a team win by himself. now if bring in kobe for max salery and him and amare clash and this team starts loosing what is going to happen? remember this team will be build around amare not kobe. build around big not small. the only thing i have been trying to say about hope of bring in kobe is that first dont place all your eggs in one basket (if the others arnt ready then kobe wont win it all for us.) and if you do bring him in then is he going to be ready to be the second man on this team behind amare?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by scotsman13
slin, i didnt say i wouldnt want kobe at any cost. the point that i have tried to make through this whole thing is that no matter what kobe isnt the end all be all of this team, and he has never proven that he can make a team win by himself. now if bring in kobe for max salery and him and amare clash and this team starts loosing what is going to happen? remember this team will be build around amare not kobe. build around big not small. the only thing i have been trying to say about hope of bring in kobe is that first dont place all your eggs in one basket (if the others arnt ready then kobe wont win it all for us.) and if you do bring him in then is he going to be ready to be the second man on this team behind amare?

Don't be such a homer. If Kobe were here, he would be the #1 guy on the team, and Amare would be #2. That's a given.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by scotsman13
slin, i didnt say i wouldnt want kobe at any cost. the point that i have tried to make through this whole thing is that no matter what kobe isnt the end all be all of this team, and he has never proven that he can make a team win by himself. now if bring in kobe for max salery and him and amare clash and this team starts loosing what is going to happen? remember this team will be build around amare not kobe. build around big not small. the only thing i have been trying to say about hope of bring in kobe is that first dont place all your eggs in one basket (if the others arnt ready then kobe wont win it all for us.) and if you do bring him in then is he going to be ready to be the second man on this team behind amare?

kobe wouldn't be the second player behind any team except Duncan and Shaq - and hell he shouldn't even be the second guy behind Shaq right now - but Shaq's ego won't let that happen.

It pains me to say this, because I hate the Lakers - but Kobe is the best player in basketball right now - can you honestly tell me there is anyone else in the league you'd rather have the ball in their hands down one with a minute left? Kobe's awesome and put on THIS Suns team would be like Jordan - him and Amare would win championships together for a long time to come.

 

[elindholm]

It pains me to say this, because I hate the Lakers - but Kobe is the best player in basketball right now - can you honestly tell me there is anyone else in the league you'd rather have the ball in their hands down one with a minute left? Kobe's awesome and put on THIS Suns team would be like Jordan - him and Amare would win championships together for a long time to come.

Yep.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
kobe wouldn't be the second player behind any team except Duncan and Shaq - and hell he shouldn't even be the second guy behind Shaq right now - but Shaq's ego won't let that happen.

It pains me to say this, because I hate the Lakers - but Kobe is the best player in basketball right now - can you honestly tell me there is anyone else in the league you'd rather have the ball in their hands down one with a minute left? Kobe's awesome and put on THIS Suns team would be like Jordan - him and Amare would win championships together for a long time to come.

I agree that the Phoenix Suns should make every effort to sign Kobe Bryant this summer. I do not agree that he is the best player in basketball right now. He's a great clutch player, but given the choice I would rather have Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan.

But that's neither here nor there since Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett are not going anywhere.

Joe Mama

 

[scotsman13]

for last second shoots sure kobe can take those and he will be the main person on this team for those shoots if the suns get him. but dont fool yourselfs into believing anything other then amare is number 1a and kobe maybe 1b on this team. you always go big to small and at 6'7" kobe is small.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by scotsman13
for last second shoots sure kobe can take those and he will be the main person on this team for those shoots if the suns get him. but dont fool yourselfs into believing anything other then amare is number 1a and kobe maybe 1b on this team. you always go big to small and at 6'7" kobe is small.

Kobe would be #1 on this team, and Amare #2. There is no basis for argument on this point.

 

[tommcnabb]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Don't be such a homer. If Kobe were here, he would be the #1 guy on the team, and Amare would be #2. That's a given.

Honestly, I'm not sure about that.

I think given the current situation, the offense would go through Amare first, but when the game is on the line, it would be Kobe taking the shot or dishing off for the game winner.

In the future, though, that may be different.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by tommcnabb
Honestly, I'm not sure about that.

I think given the current situation, the offense would go through Amare first, but when the game is on the line, it would be Kobe taking the shot or dishing off for the game winner.

I can't believe I read that...

You actually think with Kobe Bryant here, he'd be the 2nd option?? Seriously? If that were the case, I'd guarantee you that Kobe wouldn't even sign here.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I can't believe I read that...

You actually think with Kobe Bryant here, he'd be the 2nd option?? Seriously? If that were the case, I'd guarantee you that Kobe wouldn't even sign here.

And, as we all know, Kobe signing here is a 100% sure thing.


If Kobe signs with Phoenix, it creates the same dynamic as Shaq/Kobe, except Kobe has the upper hand (Kobe/Amare) and neither player is the best player in the league, much less head and shoulders above the competition (as prime Shaq was).

How long will it take for Amare to get fed up? To me, that's the real question if Kobe deigns to sign with the Suns...

 

[elindholm]

When Stoudemire is clearly a top-five player in the league, and most likely top-three, then this discussion might make sense. Until then, it's a whole lot of ado about nothing.

 

[Chaplin]

Amazing, I can't believe that more people aren't in support of Kobe Bryant here. I thought we all wanted a championship. I guess not. Instead, people are whining because Amare won't be the #1 option.

The chances of Kobe signing here are beside the point in this discussion.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Amazing, I can't believe that more people aren't in support of Kobe Bryant here. I thought we all wanted a championship. I guess not. Instead, people are whining because Amare won't be the #1 option.

I guess you think that fans who prefer to root for players they like (instead of the most talented players possible) are crazy, right? And if your hero spurns the Lakers and Spurs to sign with a less-talented team, what does that make him? Just a little 'eccentric', I suppose.


It's a good thing the Suns aren't going after Karl Malone, or we'd have constant diatribes in every thread saying that Malone isn't really dirty or a complete jackass, he's just a consummate team player who plays hard and physical, sticks up for his teammates and wears his heart on his sleeve, with follow-up posts about how the Suns would be lucky to have him, and how only an idiot would think otherwise...

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog
I guess you think that fans who prefer to root for players they like (instead of the most talented players possible) are crazy, right? And if your hero spurns the Lakers and Spurs to sign with a less-talented team, what does that make him? Just a little 'eccentric', I suppose.


It's a good thing the Suns aren't going after Karl Malone, or we'd have constant diatribes in every thread saying that Malone isn't really dirty or a complete jackass, he's just a consummate team player who plays hard and physical, sticks up for his teammates and wears his heart on his sleeve, with follow-up posts about how the Suns would be lucky to have him, and how only an idiot would think otherwise...

Do you even comprehend what you are typing? Kobe my hero? You have some problems man, and not just with basketball it seems.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I really can't understand how people are against the hypothetical aquisition of Kobe.

You have a chance to add a top 5 player, at no cost, you do it. Especially when that player is just about to ENTER his prime. You got that right? Kobe Bryant is still very young (26 I believe), he is just starting to enter the prime of his career.

Kobe Bryant would be the #1 option on offense, unless for some reason he wanted the ball to go inside out (unlikely for sure). Your best offensive player (and one of the best offensive players in the league) dictates the offensive strategy. Not the 21 year old with amazing promise.

The reason Kobe would spurn the Lakers and the Spurs to sign with the "less talented" team (outside of Duncan, the spurs are not more talented btw) is because he would want to be the man, not because he is eccentric. He would be the #2 on both the Lakers and Spurs, which he really doesnt want.



Furthermore, if the suns were going after Karl Malone, there would be a huge uproar. He wouldn't help this team, and would be forced to play behind Amare. Also, he is coming off a major injury, and is at the very end of his career. Kobe Bryant does not play a dirty game. I have never once heard a person insinuate that. He plays selfishly at times, but he has the ability to do so. And for as many times as he demands the ball, he makes plays for his teammates and equal amount.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr

Furthermore, if the suns were going after Karl Malone, there would be a huge uproar. He wouldn't help this team, and would be forced to play behind Amare. Also, he is coming off a major injury, and is at the very end of his career. Kobe Bryant does not play a dirty game. I have never once heard a person insinuate that. He plays selfishly at times, but he has the ability to do so. And for as many times as he demands the ball, he makes plays for his teammates and equal amount.

And it's not like there's never been a Phoenix Sun who had even a little bit of selfishness in him. (Cliffy, Barkley) Heck, even JJ has shown that in the past. (Howard Eisley certainly does right now as well)

I just cannot for the life of me see any justification for someone not being excited about the hypothetical signing of Kobe Bryant. The only thing I can think of is just because they don't like the guy personally. And frankly, that is a weak and naive stance to take unless you don't care about championships.

Karl Malone doesn't fill a need. But Kobe Bryant does. Even if we had a solid 2 guard like Brent Barry, Kobe Bryant can still make a team a lot better. JJ or no JJ, if the opportunity to acquire Kobe Bryant exists, it MUST be attempted. I have no doubt that every team under the cap will at least make some kind of offer, and probably at least 90% of the remaining teams will try some kind of sign-and-trade. It's a forgone conclusion--he's THAT good.