Why didnt TJ do this in AZ?

Pariah

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At first I thought, "Emmitt is only 9 yards behinf TJ? That's strange, because I've watched a fair amount of the bears' games this year and TJ looks great, period and Emmitt has looked great for an over-the-hill RB. Seems odd they'd have the same yardage." Then I realized that Emmitt's stats reflect 5 games and TJ's reflect 4.

TJ also has 118 receiving yards to Emmitt's 29.

Jones is playing VERY well this season. To say otherwise is letting your feeling for the player show through.
 

red desert

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Pariah said:
At first I thought, "Emmitt is only 9 yards behinf TJ? That's strange, because I've watched a fair amount of the bears' games this year and TJ looks great, period and Emmitt has looked great for an over-the-hill RB. Seems odd they'd have the same yardage." Then I realized that Emmitt's stats reflect 5 games and TJ's reflect 4.

TJ also has 118 receiving yards to Emmitt's 29.

Jones is playing VERY well this season. To say otherwise is letting your feeling for the player show through.

Okay. So now what? Wanna trade for him?
 

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100%CardsFan said:
Well Ben or Leftwich never played or was drafted by the Cardinals. It was a simple question I asked. Do you have an answer?

bad coaching - bad O-line - immaturity. I was actually responding more to - actually - I don't know what I was responding to.

But for anyone to claim this kid STILL can't play is clearly clouded by personal feelings for him. He's beena stud this year and played very well at the end of the year for the BUcs. As to why Gruden didn't want him Skkorp - look at the mess that team is - they are no barometer of proper judges of talent at this point.
 
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cheesebeef said:
bad coaching - bad O-line - immaturity. I was actually responding more to - actually - I don't know what I was responding to.

But for anyone to claim this kid STILL can't play is clearly clouded by personal feelings for him. He's beena stud this year and played very well at the end of the year for the BUcs. As to why Gruden didn't want him Skkorp - look at the mess that team is - they are no barometer of proper judges of talent at this point.

:thumbup: couldnt agree more
 

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joeshmo said:
Skorp you might want to do a little homework first.

Here is YPC in the 5 games he has player:

3.2
6.6
5.0
2.5
4.0

Only one game where he averaged less then 3 YPC.

I think what he was saying is that outside of one good game the others combined have been mediocre. When looked at from that perspective Jones is getting like 3.8 per carry which is ok but nothing special.

Looking at his game by game YPC it looks like he has way to high a variance to be reliable, which is what I would rather have in a back. Also it's interesting to note that in his one stellar game 1/3 of his yards came on a single carry. So without that one single run in which it appears the line was stacked and he broke through his overall YPC would probably dip below 3.5, which is not very good.

joeshmo said:
Your first statement is a little skewed dont you think. Those numbers before this week for Emmitt Smith is for 5 games while those stats for Jones are for 4 games. Now that they are even with 5 games played Jones has 100+ yards more then Smith does.

I don't really see how this matters at all. When comparing two players all that matters is what they do with the opprtunity they are given. Despite the fact Smith had one more game than Jones prior to this week they were only five rushing attempts apart. Smith cannot be held responsible for getting less rushes per five games than Jones, especially when far more than the backs skill goes into determining how many attempts they get.

You could just as easily say that comparing Smith and Jones now, after this week is unfair because now Jones has like 20 more attempts. Obviously Jones is going to have more yards in five games when Smith is getting 80% of the carries Jones is. All that proves is that as carries goes up so does yardage.

By your definition, a back that carries it 370 times in a season for 1400 yards is better than a back that carries it 310 for 1275 yards because the first back "Has more yards in the same number of games (16)" even though the second back is clearly superior averaging over 4 YPC while the first one is running a league average 3.7 and got his yards through attrition. And just for reference, 370 to 310 is pretty much the same ratio as Jones carries to smith carries.

Now I know you'd take back #2 in my example above I'm just trying to illustrate that just because games played is not equal doesn't mean you can't compare the backs. Either way, I think stats like YPC mean jack for some of the reasons I said above. It's way too prone to big plays and big plays are as much a function of field position as they are the player.

I instead like the methods at footballoutsiders.com.

Looking at their ratings (not updated for today) Smith is league average in effcieny while Jones is 8.8% above league average. That's in DVOA which is a good measure of "who does what with the opportunity given". The stat which factors in stuff like getting more carries cause your the main guy is PAR. Jones win here as well being 11th in the league while Smith is 16th. I think Smith is doing quite well considering how much older he is than Jones. I don't expect Smith to stay as productive as he is but that's not the point of my post.
:p
 
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jerryp said:
I think what he was saying is that outside of one good game the others combined have been mediocre. When looked at from that perspective Jones is getting like 3.8 per carry which is ok but nothing special.

Looking at his game by game YPC it looks like he has way to high a variance to be reliable, which is what I would rather have in a back. Also it's interesting to note that in his one stellar game 1/3 of his yards came on a single carry. So without that one single run in which it appears the line was stacked and he broke through his overall YPC would probably dip below 3.5, which is not very good.



I don't really see how this matters at all. When comparing two players all that matters is what they do with the opprtunity they are given. Despite the fact Smith had one more game than Jones prior to this week they were only five rushing attempts apart. Smith cannot be held responsible for getting less rushes per five games than Jones, especially when far more than the backs skill goes into determining how many attempts they get.

You could just as easily say that comparing Smith and Jones now, after this week is unfair because now Jones has like 20 more attempts. Obviously Jones is going to have more yards in five games when Smith is getting 80% of the carries Jones is. All that proves is that as carries goes up so does yardage.

By your definition, a back that carries it 370 times in a season for 1400 yards is better than a back that carries it 310 for 1275 yards because the first back "Has more yards in the same number of games (16)" even though the second back is clearly superior averaging over 4 YPC while the first one is running a league average 3.7 and got his yards through attrition. And just for reference, 370 to 310 is pretty much the same ratio as Jones carries to smith carries.

Now I know you'd take back #2 in my example above I'm just trying to illustrate that just because games played is not equal doesn't mean you can't compare the backs. Either way, I think stats like YPC mean jack for some of the reasons I said above. It's way too prone to big plays and big plays are as much a function of field position as they are the player.

I instead like the methods at footballoutsiders.com.

Looking at their ratings (not updated for today) Smith is league average in effcieny while Jones is 8.8% above league average. That's in DVOA which is a good measure of "who does what with the opportunity given". The stat which factors in stuff like getting more carries cause your the main guy is PAR. Jones win here as well being 11th in the league while Smith is 16th. I think Smith is doing quite well considering how much older he is than Jones. I don't expect Smith to stay as productive as he is but that's not the point of my post.
:p

Well after reading all of that I still say RIGHT NOW Thomas Jones is a better running back than Emmitt is.
 

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By "this" do you mean helping his team get off to a 1-4 start? Seems to me the Cards were fairly good at that when TJones was in Arizona. :D

Seriously, I think that TJones is a back that needs 20+ carries a game to be effective. In fact I remember posters saying that he'd be fine if he could just get 20-25 carries a game and thinking to myself that if that's the case he'd never be really good in AZ because Cardinal RB's seldom if ever got more than 15-17 carries per game.

The Cardinals offense AND defense were so pathetic during those seasons that there was just no way Jones was going to get the carries he needed to be successful.

But then just about anybody can be successful as a RB in the NFL. As long as they play for Denver. Rueben Droughns??????????????????????
 
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Pariah

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red desert said:
Okay. So now what? Wanna trade for him?
If we could, we probably should. But, you and I know that we can't.

I think it's friggin hysterical that people on this board can't talk about guys that either used to play for the Cards and are doing well, or guys we could have drafted and are doing well without throwing a hissy-fit.

TJ
Ben R
Leftwich
Jake

...and the list goes on.
 
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Pariah said:
If we could, we probably should. But, you and I know that we can't.

I think it's friggin hysterical that people on this board can't talk about guys that either used to play for the Cards and are doing well, or guys we could have drafted and are doing well without throwing a hissy-fit.

TJ
Ben R
Leftwich
Jake

...and the list goes on.

I still like Plummer for what he did for the Cards. He played his heart out and I appreciate that. What he did for Pat was great and when I saw his press conference with him wearing an ASU hat, I remembered alot of good times at SDS either the Cards or the Devils. Jake took out a full page newpaper article about how good AZ has been to him and how AZ will always be his home and he hopes that the Cards willl face the Broncos in the Super Bowl. Has Jake ever bashed AZ? Does anyone know?
 

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Has Jake ever bashed AZ? Does anyone know?

Only while he was there. Not since he left.
 

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i've actually got nothing against Jake anymore - the guy makes plays - does he make some REALLY bad mistakes? Yeah - but every QB does and since he's got to Denver - all he's done is win ball games and do what's right by Pat Tillman. DG probably could have done abetter job with him - but Shanny apparently knows EXACTLY how to use him. gOOD FOR JAKE - JUST AS LONG AS HE DOESN'T GET TO THE sUPER bOWL IN THENEXT FOUR YEARS - THAN i OWE SOMEONE DINNER! (sorry bout the caps - too lazy to switch back - man I wish there was a caps off button.)
 

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100%CardsFan said:
Well after reading all of that I still say RIGHT NOW Thomas Jones is a better running back than Emmitt is.

No disagreement here, but I don't think comparing what Emmitt did in x carries to what Jones did in a similar number of carries is invalid just because Emmitt got his in five games and Jones in four. That's why I think DVOA is a good system, it doesn't care if the runs came in one game or the entire season, all that matters is the context in which the yards were acquired and if those yards made the play successful.

Right now Emmitt Smith when handed a football on a running play is "successful" at about the same rate the league as a whole is. Jones is successful 8.8% of the time more often than the league as a whole. So right now Jones is doing more to make his team efficient. That to me is far more important than cute little figures like hundred yard rushing games.

And I expect the DVOA/PAR gap to widen between Jones and Smith over the course of the season so please don't think I am trying to say Smith is better. I just think stats like YPC can be spun so many ways and stats like total yardage (and points per yard) are pointless without context. But saying "This person got the ball this many times, and according to a predefined set of rules on what we deam as acceptable results he was successful this many times." can't really be spun around.
 

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100%CardsFan said:
This isnt a thread about "Why did we get rid of Thomas Jones" but seriously I want to know what you guys think the factor of TJ running so well in Chitown is. Was our O line that bad? Did he just not want to play here even when he got the starting job? Is the Bears Oline that much better than ours? Did he just pick up his intensity playing in Chicago where the whole city is behind the team and some of the most passionate fans ever. These are things that come to mind but would love to hear some of your guys thoughts on this.

Bad O-line + bad coaching caused us to never like TJ. Same way as we started to hate Jake. Poor-Coaching. Mac- and his staff really sucked.

Babcat :wave: :thumbup:
 

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jerryp said:
I think what he was saying is that outside of one good game the others combined have been mediocre. When looked at from that perspective Jones is getting like 3.8 per carry which is ok but nothing special.

Looking at his game by game YPC it looks like he has way to high a variance to be reliable, which is what I would rather have in a back. Also it's interesting to note that in his one stellar game 1/3 of his yards came on a single carry. So without that one single run in which it appears the line was stacked and he broke through his overall YPC would probably dip below 3.5, which is not very good.



I :p

That's one of the oldest and least convincing arguments though. Good RB's break long runs, to subtract out the long runs is just not fair.

There are very few guys who play behind a line as good as Emmit's line was in Dallas where they can get 4 YPC. Droughns is doing it right now in Denver, of course Carolina and Oakland also happen to have HUGE problems stopping the run right now, Carolina due to injuries, Oakland because it's clear they overpaid for 2 past their prime DT's and aren't getting much bang for their buck in return. I watched the entire game and they said Sapp's name twice, and once was to mention they hadn't called his name very often.

Most RB's HAVE to break long runs to be effective. Jones had his problems here, it's apparent he didn't want to be here, it's also apparent we weren't using him the way he needed to be used to be effective.
 

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Here is the bottom line. T.J. was VERY inconsistant when he was here. He was expected to be our franchise player and tha did no pan out. He has matured into a back that is closing in on becoming the player that people expected from him coming out of the draft, he is not there yet. Tampa lket him go because Jon Gruden knew he was going to bring in Charlie Garner, whom he is in love with. My biggest issue is that we gave Jones away for a guy who is bagging groceries right now. Chicago signed him for far below his current value. I know his cap#, does anyone know how long his contract is? If he is a FA next year we could make a run at him, but weather he would want to come back remains to be seen.
 

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Sam Wise said:
Here is the bottom line. T.J. was VERY inconsistant when he was here. He was expected to be our franchise player and tha did no pan out. He has matured into a back that is closing in on becoming the player that people expected from him coming out of the draft, he is not there yet. Tampa lket him go because Jon Gruden knew he was going to bring in Charlie Garner, whom he is in love with. My biggest issue is that we gave Jones away for a guy who is bagging groceries right now. Chicago signed him for far below his current value. I know his cap#, does anyone know how long his contract is? If he is a FA next year we could make a run at him, but weather he would want to come back remains to be seen.

Good points....

P.S. I think you meant "whether" not weather.... :D
 

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I think it's safe to say TJ, two yrs. after we got rid of him is on the verge of breaking out in the NFL.

Where E. Smith is - is on his last legs.

Who would you rather have right now - Smith (B. Bidwells call to bring in cust.), or Jones? Or both. Smith would have been a good mentor! He could have sped up the curve.
 

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100%CardsFan said:
This isnt a thread about "Why did we get rid of Thomas Jones" but seriously I want to know what you guys think the factor of TJ running so well in Chitown is. Was our O line that bad? Did he just not want to play here even when he got the starting job? Is the Bears Oline that much better than ours? Did he just pick up his intensity playing in Chicago where the whole city is behind the team and some of the most passionate fans ever. These are things that come to mind but would love to hear some of your guys thoughts on this.

I think TJ was playing hurt much of the season. I personally thought we should have kept him at the time as we got nothing for him. This guy was one of the best running backs in the nation and you just do not go from that to a loser overnight. If you are a great running back in a major college program you have a good chance to make it in the NFL. RB's do not need a lot of experience they come with the ability to run. You do not coach speed,moves, or power. His loss looks even worse now with our RB situation. That is why we are the Cards. We have had a host of players leave here and labled as losers who went on to great carreers. A problem of our coaches and GM recognizing talent when they see it. Remember Garrison Hearst. Buddy labeled him a loser. He also was injured the year prior to leaving and he has had some great years. A 1000 yd rusher.
 

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