Why I will stop posting to this board

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elindholm

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This post isn’t specifically related to the Suns, but since my contributions on this board have been almost exclusively in this forum, I request that it be permitted to remain here. I also request that my account be allowed to remain active, so that I can continue to use other features of the board, including private messages.

First of all, I need to state clearly how grateful I am to the administrators of this board for all of the time, money, and energy that they have put in over the years and continue to put in now. I have never enjoyed any internet family as much as I have enjoyed this one, and I will miss interacting with a great many of the posters here. Even though I’ve never met any of the other contributors, and in fact spoken on the phone with only one, I feel that I have many friends here. This Suns forum has been the top browser bookmark on every computer I’ve had over the last several years. It will be very hard to break the habit of checking it regularly, and in fact I doubt that I will -– I claim only that I will stop posting.

One of my most powerful memories of this board will be of what happened on September 11th, 2001. Soon after the news broke, posters flocked to this board to share their reactions. Naturally, the discourse got a bit heated at times, as everyone’s nerves were a bit frayed. But here was a group of people who, until that moment, had been united only by sports -– and electronically at that -– and who were now coming together in the face of the most terrifying national tragedy any of us had experienced. And what was most remarkable was that no one told us to assemble for this electronic town meeting: We all came on our own, driven by instinct to trust that we would be here for one another, even though there was no logical reason for us to do so.

The board was a true community then.

Recently, times have changed. A new group of moderators, surely meaning well (and, if their claims are genuine, simply following directives from above), have created an atmosphere of fear and intolerance. Posts deemed to be off-topic or raising unpopular issues get moved, reclassified, or deleted. Posters who fall out of step with the new order face censure, exile to other forums, or banishment. Where competing ideas once flowed freely, now they are compartmentalized, squelched, and systematically, aggressively devalued.

The difference is, at its heart, philosophical: Is diversity something to be embraced, or merely tolerated? A true community, in my opinion, recognizes the immeasurable value of competing ideas. It is only through having our beliefs challenged that we are forced to examine them critically, in a process that sharpens our thinking, expands our horizons, and brings us wisdom. In a pseudo-community, by contrast, everyone is already “in agreement,” content to recycle the same popular stances, in a vacuous dance that masquerades as the pursuit of true understanding but in reality is the antithesis of open-minded curiosity.

Several longtime posters have raised objections to the policy shift, and all have met with the same response: This is our board, we run it the way we want to, and if you don’t like it, leave. Well, okay. I will. I have spent thousands of hours contributing to this community in part because I believed that those contributions were appreciated. But welcoming any one voice means welcoming it in its entirety, not just to the extent that it harmonizes with what everyone else is already saying. Are the only desirable traits in any contributor limited to the things that he has in common with everybody else?

On a related note, I have become increasingly frustrated with persistent criticism from a few posters that I am uninformed, excessively pessimistic, or interested only in putting people down. I have, to be sure, often been very aggressive in pointing out what I believe to be sloppy or muddled thinking. But the fight has always been to preserve the proper relationship between evidence and conclusion, to focus properly on the substance of any debate, and to point out how far objective information can get you if you only give it a chance. The most likely explanation I can come up with for the attacks against me is that the posters responsible simply aren’t paying very careful attention; no one who has read my posts and really thought of them could reach those conclusions, even if they came away thinking that I was not a particularly nice person. Again, then, the board seems to have reached a stage where many posters want only to talk and not to listen, voices sailing right past one another, oblivious to their surroundings. Like the riddler’s tree alone in the forest, I have to ask myself: If my electronic words sail off into cyberspace without actually being read, can they really be considered communication? And if not, then why am I doing it?

It will sadden me not to share the joy of future Suns successes with this passionate, tightly knit family. But, just as on September 11th, there are issues in play that I believe go beyond sports and speak directly to our values and our sense of humanity. If this essay causes one person to open his mind just a bit more, it will have been worth the time to write. Whether that happens or not, however, I have reached the conclusion that it just isn’t appropriate for me to continue trying to do what I do in an environment that is becoming increasingly resistant and hostile.

Although I am leaving on somewhat unhappy terms, I again want to thank the board’s administrators for all they have done over the years. Overall, this site is an admirable success, and I wish you all the best.
 

jw7

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elindholm said:
One of my most powerful memories of this board will be of what happened on September 11th, 2001. Soon after the news broke, posters flocked to this board to share their reactions.

Umm, this board was not created until May of 2002. :shrug:
 

JS22

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We've had many differences, but I'm going to be sad if you actually do leave.
 

panfolk

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I just find myself hoping I'm not one of the posters driving you off. I've always tried to be respectful even when aiming to take you down a notch ;)
 

slinslin

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Let's be honest this board has gone downhill ever since I have stopped posting. ;)

Now seriously I agree with elindholm. Sucks how this board is now moderated. My post in the other thread got deleted, Post and topics I want to read are suddenly merged into other threads.... really annoying.
 
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NastyOne

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I don't post alot, but i've been reading these boards for a couple of years, and it would be a shame if you stoped posting Eric.

You're a dedicated Suns fan and well informed about all sun related topics.

Don't let anyone drive you off this board.

Plus what will become of your ASFN basketball league if you stop posting here. :(
 

NastyOne

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slinslin said:
Let's be honest this board has gone downhill ever since I have stopped posting. ;)

Now seriously I agree with elindholm. Sucks how this board is now moderated. My post in the other tread got deleted, Post and topics I want to read are suddenly merged into other threads.... really annoying.

Yeah deleting and moving post are pretty weak

I was wondering what happend to my PHX/TOR/MIN thread, then it hit me that someone merged it into the trade thread.
 

JS22

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slinslin said:
Let's be honest this board has gone downhill ever since I have stopped posting. ;)

Now seriously I agree with elindholm. Sucks how this board is now moderated. My post in the other thread got deleted, Post and topics I want to read are suddenly merged into other threads.... really annoying.

I do agree with you that it's pretty annoying. But I have to get my Suns fix somehow.
 

Mainstreet

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Eric, I admired your quality posts. If it you quit posting it will be a huge loss to this board. This Board needs quality, informed posters with different views... and the willingness to examine those divergent views. You were one of the few willing to do just that and give an intelligent response.

I even changed my most recent signature just for you to the one below. :)

There needs to be more acceptance of different ideas and less hating on this board.

Your quote below is so true and well said:

"The difference is, at its heart, philosophical: Is diversity something to be embraced, or merely tolerated? A true community, in my opinion, recognizes the immeasurable value of competing ideas. It is only through having our beliefs challenged that we are forced to examine them critically, in a process that sharpens our thinking, expands our horizons, and brings us wisdom."

Eric, please reconsider your decision. I know you are open-minded enough to do so. Individual people really do make a difference and you have impacted my life in a positive way. Isn't making a difference in one person's life enough to change your decision?

Also, who will be my "soul brother" when talking about Antonio McDyess?

Your Friend,

Mainstreet
 

boisesuns

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Is there a way we can have a community discussion about that we like and what needs improvement from the moderators?
 

Skkorpion

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If Eric feels, he must leave, so be it. I ban myself from this board more than you will ever know. Kool-aid and ignorance runs rampant here. I always thought Eric had his eyes open.

The Suns run is over. Amare is dogmeat and I blame Sarver for not giving him a physical before signing him.

I'll miss elindholm and I hope he will reconsider.
 

Ryanwb

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I'm just going to throw this out there. I have been with the core of these posters since 1999 I have followed 3-4 different boards until finally landing here. I think there is a certain underlying elitism that exists in all facets of this board. This occurs in the Suns forum, Cardinals forum, etc.... People who have been long time posters feel territorial like there is a certain general understanding on opinions. For example if a subject like Marion being traded has been talked to death for a year or so and a new poster joins the board and brings up the subject, often this person is met with ill will and negativity and posts like, "Here we go again" or "This has been talked to death". Basically I think a "post predjudice" exists.... in every single forum on here (except the Arizona Sting because nobody reads that forum anyway)

This is just my observation and I have met so many other people from this board in the "real world" and they all echo that general opinion.
 

Mainstreet

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Skkorpion said:
If Eric feels, he must leave, so be it. I ban myself from this board more than you will ever know. Kool-aid and ignorance runs rampant here. I always thought Eric had his eyes open.

The Suns run is over. Amare is dogmeat and I blame Sarver for not giving him a physical before signing him.

I'll miss elindholm and I hope he will reconsider.


Well said Skkorpion.

Even so, I have no problem with people expressing differing ideas whether I agree or disagree.

What I would like more on this Board is posters that understand that not one person has the correct and only answer. Disagreements should be countered with intelligent discussion and not by demeaning remarks and hatred.

I like the quote below:

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only
way, it does not exist.” - Friedrich Nietzsche
 

Chaplin

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Skkorpion said:
If Eric feels, he must leave, so be it. I ban myself from this board more than you will ever know. Kool-aid and ignorance runs rampant here. I always thought Eric had his eyes open.

The Suns run is over. Amare is dogmeat and I blame Sarver for not giving him a physical before signing him.

I'll miss elindholm and I hope he will reconsider.

I think posts similar to this led to this unfortunate thread. Opinions given as fact with NO EVIDENCE to support such a claim.

For my .02...

Eric has a very strong point here. As for jw7's moronic response above... this "board" existed before arizonasportsfans.com was ever created, starting with Chandler Mike's Rivals site, of which I (and a few others including Yuma) were the original members.

Throughout the years, I have been accused by several people, including moderators such as Chris Sanders and Chandler Mike of many things. There have been ups (I raised my post count by thousands in the few weeks following the Jason Kidd trade), and there have been downs (purplepalace--which for some stupid reason, SOME morons still bring up to this day). Mike himself will tell you that is all water under the bridge, and Skkorp will tell you he doesn't give a crap about it one way or another.

And yet, I continued to post, just as much as usual. In fact, I know I recently passed the 10,000 mark, which isn't very much in the scheme of things, but I had a lot more than that in the years before my post count was reset.

Eric gets a few things right in his post. This has consistently been a very sophisticated and intelligent board. Of course, there has been issues over the years--no doubt about that. But most of us regulars have been able to overcome them. These range from dumb threads posted by trolls (as we have seen this playoff season) to people that post--and post--and post--simply because they can. And those threads they continually post usually say the same thing as the threads before.

But now we have an overall issue, and since the Everything Else board never seems to be policed, it's up to the mods to look at the other boards. I'm not sure it is the same on every subforum, but the Suns forum to me seems to be the most heavily censored and policed board on the site.

It is well known that I hate trade threads. They serve no real purpose except for a way for people to further complain and cry about financial issues. It's only during the couple weeks of the playoffs do we see a halt in threads that concern basketball, rather than the bottom line. Like I said, I hate trade threads, but merging them into a bigger thread is not only pointless by stupid. How can anyone carry on a conversation when the mods are free to take out their eraser and do whatever they want whenever they want and not tell anyone about it?

True, it is their prerogative to do that. It is not a "public" forum, it is private. But not to the loyal base of posters that frequent this site. Personally, I support their right to do what they're doing, but as a big contributor on this site, I think it's tantamount to a slap in the face for them to do what they are doing without so much as a bye or leave to their loyal constituence. Like Eric, at times I have felt like we are less than nothing--ESPECIALLY on the Suns board. Let's not even get into the Suns vs. Cardinal fans debate, which would be a lively one, to be sure. Understand, that is NOT a slam against Cardinal fans, who easily constitute a majority on this site, but there are certain formalities that are and are not observed and the Suns people appear to be taking the brunt of this policing and the only answer we get when we ask about it is, "it's our board, we can do whatever we want."

Clearly, it has gotten out of hand. It is one thing to ban trolls and prohibit trolling behavior. It is quite another to extend that iron fist of control to posters who are Suns fans and are not trolls. Where does it end, and where is the line? How do the mods know to cross it or not? Why merge trade threads? What's the point other than to a) anger posters who were posting on those threads, and b) flex the mods muscles to show they are in control? We understand the rules of the board--we have for several years. Why is this place seemingly heading towards a dictatorship?

I'll get off my soapbox now. There are plenty of reasons to stay on this board, and right now, there are reasons to leave (God knows, I've tried a couple times myself, to no avail). But Eric is one of the guys on this board that keeps me coming back. I only hope he will, and that this board doesn't continue on its downward spiral. I will try to do my part, but hope the mods do theirs as well.
 

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Eric stop taking yourself so seriously and enjoy posting on the internet. You're gonna miss out next season when the suns dominate!
 

Mainstreet

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Treesquid said:
Eric stop taking yourself so seriously and enjoy posting on the internet. You're gonna miss out next season when the suns dominate!

:thumbup:

However, I always liked Eric being serious.
 

Cheesebeef

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good lord some of you guys take a message board WAYYYYYY too seriously. But, I guess if you're not having fun on it anymore, there's good reason to leave.
 
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Eric, please don't leave. I rarely post here but yet read it every day. Quite often I skip a lot of posts until I get to Eric's which I sometimes read over and over again to get at some subtle point he is trying to make. He is sometimes controversial but always has excellent points to make. Please stay.
 

playstation

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seattle_sunsfan said:
Eric, please don't leave. I rarely post here but yet read it every day. Quite often I skip a lot of posts until I get to Eric's which I sometimes read over and over again to get at some subtle point he is trying to make. He is sometimes controversial but always has excellent points to make. Please stay.

LOL

are you serious?

eric's posts = gospel...

eric, all that stuff you talked about might make sense bro, but make no mistake, you're not leaving with a bang, you're leaving with a whimper...
 

Mainstreet

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playstation said:
LOL

are you serious?

eric's posts = gospel...

eric, all that stuff you talked about might make sense bro, but make no mistake, you're not leaving with a bang, you're leaving with a whimper...


Perhaps Eric would respond like his signature...

The American exploded: "Vos who sos to say to me what I must do. Andate to the excrement and enjoys the triumph well because the Dream Team is going to them to break the ass", was disorientated.

I always got a kick out of this newspaper comment being translated to English. :)
 

Chris_Sanders

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elindholm said:
This post isn’t specifically related to the Suns, but since my contributions on this board have been almost exclusively in this forum, I request that it be permitted to remain here. I also request that my account be allowed to remain active, so that I can continue to use other features of the board, including private messages.

First of all, I need to state clearly how grateful I am to the administrators of this board for all of the time, money, and energy that they have put in over the years and continue to put in now. I have never enjoyed any internet family as much as I have enjoyed this one, and I will miss interacting with a great many of the posters here. Even though I’ve never met any of the other contributors, and in fact spoken on the phone with only one, I feel that I have many friends here. This Suns forum has been the top browser bookmark on every computer I’ve had over the last several years. It will be very hard to break the habit of checking it regularly, and in fact I doubt that I will -– I claim only that I will stop posting.

One of my most powerful memories of this board will be of what happened on September 11th, 2001. Soon after the news broke, posters flocked to this board to share their reactions. Naturally, the discourse got a bit heated at times, as everyone’s nerves were a bit frayed. But here was a group of people who, until that moment, had been united only by sports -– and electronically at that -– and who were now coming together in the face of the most terrifying national tragedy any of us had experienced. And what was most remarkable was that no one told us to assemble for this electronic town meeting: We all came on our own, driven by instinct to trust that we would be here for one another, even though there was no logical reason for us to do so.

The board was a true community then.

Recently, times have changed. A new group of moderators, surely meaning well (and, if their claims are genuine, simply following directives from above), have created an atmosphere of fear and intolerance. Posts deemed to be off-topic or raising unpopular issues get moved, reclassified, or deleted. Posters who fall out of step with the new order face censure, exile to other forums, or banishment. Where competing ideas once flowed freely, now they are compartmentalized, squelched, and systematically, aggressively devalued.

The difference is, at its heart, philosophical: Is diversity something to be embraced, or merely tolerated? A true community, in my opinion, recognizes the immeasurable value of competing ideas. It is only through having our beliefs challenged that we are forced to examine them critically, in a process that sharpens our thinking, expands our horizons, and brings us wisdom. In a pseudo-community, by contrast, everyone is already “in agreement,” content to recycle the same popular stances, in a vacuous dance that masquerades as the pursuit of true understanding but in reality is the antithesis of open-minded curiosity.

Several longtime posters have raised objections to the policy shift, and all have met with the same response: This is our board, we run it the way we want to, and if you don’t like it, leave. Well, okay. I will. I have spent thousands of hours contributing to this community in part because I believed that those contributions were appreciated. But welcoming any one voice means welcoming it in its entirety, not just to the extent that it harmonizes with what everyone else is already saying. Are the only desirable traits in any contributor limited to the things that he has in common with everybody else?

On a related note, I have become increasingly frustrated with persistent criticism from a few posters that I am uninformed, excessively pessimistic, or interested only in putting people down. I have, to be sure, often been very aggressive in pointing out what I believe to be sloppy or muddled thinking. But the fight has always been to preserve the proper relationship between evidence and conclusion, to focus properly on the substance of any debate, and to point out how far objective information can get you if you only give it a chance. The most likely explanation I can come up with for the attacks against me is that the posters responsible simply aren’t paying very careful attention; no one who has read my posts and really thought of them could reach those conclusions, even if they came away thinking that I was not a particularly nice person. Again, then, the board seems to have reached a stage where many posters want only to talk and not to listen, voices sailing right past one another, oblivious to their surroundings. Like the riddler’s tree alone in the forest, I have to ask myself: If my electronic words sail off into cyberspace without actually being read, can they really be considered communication? And if not, then why am I doing it?

It will sadden me not to share the joy of future Suns successes with this passionate, tightly knit family. But, just as on September 11th, there are issues in play that I believe go beyond sports and speak directly to our values and our sense of humanity. If this essay causes one person to open his mind just a bit more, it will have been worth the time to write. Whether that happens or not, however, I have reached the conclusion that it just isn’t appropriate for me to continue trying to do what I do in an environment that is becoming increasingly resistant and hostile.

Although I am leaving on somewhat unhappy terms, I again want to thank the board’s administrators for all they have done over the years. Overall, this site is an admirable success, and I wish you all the best.

I haven't posted, moved a thread, banned someone, or done anything of the sort since game 4 of the Dallas game. Not sure what brought this on.
 

Chris_Sanders

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Chaplin said:
Throughout the years, I have been accused by several people, including moderators such as Chris Sanders.

Would you care to give some examples because I do nothing but defend you and your right to post here.

In the last year I believe I have said one unkind word to you, and that was in the middle of some dumb thread that I don't even recall.
 

Folster

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This thread needs to be moved to the proper forum or deleted.
 
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