Why is Tim Thomas so valued compared to Kurt Thomas?!

[cardsunsfan]

I just don't get it, am I missing something here? When Kurt Thomas and some of our other players got in synch with our system (about a quarter of the way through the season) It could be argued we were the best team in basketball.

I think it took Kurt Thomas awhile to adjust to our speed but when he did I think what he did for our defense was amazing. If I recall correctly we went from the top five in least field goal % allowed to the bottom five without him.

We only won about 50% of our games without him and with Tim Thomas as an addition. When we did hit our stride and everybody was used to our system we were winning about 80% of the time or higher if I recall.

Yes Tim Thomas helped save us several times against the Lakers and Clippers, but I think if we had had Kurt Thomas we would have never been in that situation in the first place. I would be willing to bet we would have beat the Lakers in 5 and possibly the Clippers too.

Tim Thomas is a terrible defender, and I didn't see he helped us much in the regular season. I know our coach loves his style of play and has never seemed to really care about defensive centers much. I hope he looks at the statistics and realizes how important he is.

I'm surprised how many of you don't seem to see that.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

We only won about 50% of our games without him and with Tim Thomas as an addition. When we did hit our stride and everybody was used to our system we were winning about 80% of the time or higher if I recall.

Well, if we had lost Kurt and not picked up Tim, we may have won only about 35% of our games and we certainly wouldn't have made it out of the first round....

 

[jbeecham]

The great thing about KT is that he doesn't need help when defending the other teams best PF or C so it stops all of our double-teaming & switching crap that makes our defense bad. The bad thing about KT is that he pretty much sucks on offense. Sure he'll hit 40% of his P&R jumpers, but he isn't going to win you games offensively. Next year with Amare back, Amare will be double teamed by his man & KT's man probably every play and they'll just leave KT wide open 15-18 ft from the basket. Probably the biggest reason everyone is down on KT is because he missed the 2nd half of the season and the playoffs (except for a few minutes in 1 game). That creates a lot of questions about KTs durability and age and how well he'll be able to do with our running style. I think he was playing about 25 mpg last year and ended up with a stress fracture in his foot after 4 months (and missed the next 3-4 months).

TT has had moments of pretty decent defense and moments of poor defense (but he's been a SF his whole career now being asked to guard strong PFs & Cs like Brand, Kwame Brown, Nowitzki, Dampier, Diop, Etc). I thought he played Dirk better than Marion most of the time because his height gave Dirk more problems. The best thing about TT is that he wants to shoot that game winning shot (like Horry) and he hit a couple of them in the most important games of the season in the playoffs (which KT missed almost completely). TT also spaces the floor better by being a 3pt threat, which opens up the middle for Nash drives and cutters because TT is being guarded by their PF or C and they can't leave him.

I liked both guys and they both bring good options to the team. We were definately a slower team with KT playing and there will be questions on how well he can play with Amare on the floor offensively (defensively they'll be fine).

 

[Mad Psyentist]

I think that if Tim Thomas resigns and we also decide to keep Kurt Thomas this summer, JJ is more than likely gone. Not just for cap space, but also minutes. I dont see how they can spread the minutes for Marion, Diaw, Kurt, Amare and Tim otherwise without Diaw and Tim taking some of the backup sf mins away from JJ.

Im also not too excited about the idea of spending anything more than the minimum on injury-prone guys like Bobby Jackson if we arent able to spend the money on Tim.

 

[arthurracoon]

I would like to keep them both this year.

TT can spread the floor with his shooting while KT can play D

 

[Gaddabout]

Tim Thomas is not a terrible defender. He will stay in front of his man and doesn't jump at every fake. He's just not someone who changes how everyone else plays.

 

[George O'Brien]

Suns fans love offense and KT is not really about offense. He can't make his own shot and doesn't shoot a lot (most he scored in one game was 18). This season he averaged 8.6 ppg in 26.6 minutes. What KT does do is shoot 48.6% taking mosting mid range jumpers and doesn't just clog up the lane.

What Suns fans don't value much is defense. I'm serious. Look at all the trade proposals.

 

[HooverDam]

I agree w/ the OP 100%. TT and KT are much different players, but if I had to pick one, it would be KT. I think the reason he doesnt seem as appreciated is because his affect isn't as obvious. He doesnt hit game saving 3's, he just does the little things that lead to wins.

 

[F-Dog]

What Suns fans don't value much is defense. I'm serious.

I can't speak for others, but my problem is that he'll be 34, an age when a lot of good-but-not-great players are out of the league already, and his body broke down last year after 50 games at 27 mpg.

Also, there's still no guarantee he'll work well with Amare.



Of course, I also think KT's contribution to the team's defense is seriously overrated by a lot of people. It's the same error that had people voting Nash for MVP in 2004--the team's better, and the new guy gets all the credit.

IIRC, the Suns had the same pattern with their defense the previous year--stronger at first, then a gradual decline as the season wore on. IMO that pattern is tied to team effort more than any individual factor.

 

[Goldfield]

I actully dont value TT much. He hit some important shots last year at the end but This team has alot of guys that can hit shots. We need defenders & Rebounders.

With Amare, KT, Marion, Diaw & JJ we have enough big;s IMO other than a shot blocker.

Next year the focus will be on Amare if he returns to form. We need more role players around him like a Raja Bell & Kurt Thomas. Tim Thomas is more like a Q Richardson type, who will take big shots but also take alot of shots away from Amare while not defending or rebounding much...

Last year we NEEDED TT, but this years Amare led team I dont think will need him.

 

[dcsunsfan]

Durability

I'm weary of betting on KT's health next year. He's spent a large chunk his career out with injury, including the bulk of several seasons: 96-97, 97-98, 98-99, and 05-06. He only played five games in 97-98!

There's a strong risk that either this season or next he will only be making a Brian Grant-level contribution. He will be 34--the same age as Grant this past season--by the time of training camp in October. $7 million is a lot to have tied up in that sort of liability.

 

[Goldfield]

Lets just say the Suns keep all our bigs min's rotated pretty equally without TT.

Amare(33mpg), Marion(33mpg), Diaw(33mpg), KT(25mpg)

That leaves only 20mpg left to share between JJ & Bell at SF.

JJ averaged just as good stats as TT did in the regular season, while costing alot less & is a very active defender/shotblocker/rebounder. He did struggle with his shot but he is a pure shooter who earned from Reggie Miller how to be a tuff allmst dirty player and even draws fouls on his 3pt shots...

IMO we should save the MLE for a player that can either play center & blockshots or play backup PG like a Bobby Jackson(who would fit in perfectly here)

 

[Evil Ash]

I'm weary of betting on KT's health next year. He's spent a large chunk his career out with injury, including the bulk of several seasons: 96-97, 97-98, 98-99, and 05-06. He only played five games in 97-98!

There's a strong risk that either this season or next he will only be making a Brian Grant-level contribution. He will be 34--the same age as Grant this past season--by the time of training camp in October. $7 million is a lot to have tied up in that sort of liability.

Tim Thomas has had just as many injury plagued years as Kurt has and Kurt has had a longer career.

The answer to the question though is short memory IMO. Kurt Thomas didn't help in the playoffs but Tim Thomas did. Its that simple really

 

[Goldfield]

The answer to the question though is short memory IMO. Kurt Thomas didn't help in the playoffs but Tim Thomas did. Its that simple really

Thats 100% correct. I "ment" to say that...

 

[George O'Brien]

Of course, I also think KT's contribution to the team's defense is seriously overrated by a lot of people. It's the same error that had people voting Nash for MVP in 2004--the team's better, and the new guy gets all the credit.

IIRC, the Suns had the same pattern with their defense the previous year--stronger at first, then a gradual decline as the season wore on. IMO that pattern is tied to team effort more than any individual factor.

At the time KT went down, the Suns were holding opponents to under 44.2% shooting. Over the last two months their overall stats fell to 45.4% and in the playoffs opponents shot 47.5% and were out rebounded by roughly 9 rpg.

Now if you were proposing that the Suns find another strong defender rebounder who can shoot, I'm with you 100%. But if you think the Suns are going to win the championship letting opponents shoot 47.5%, I have a major problem with that theory.

 

[Cheesebeef]

the answer to this question SHOULD be irrelevent. BOTH should be back next year, especially considering we mvoed our entire draft to save money.

 

[George O'Brien]

the answer to this question SHOULD be irrelevent. BOTH should be back next year, especially considering we mvoed our entire draft to save money.

If reports are correct, that is no longer an option.

 

[Joe Mama]

I can't speak for others, but my problem is that he'll be 34, an age when a lot of good-but-not-great players are out of the league already, and his body broke down last year after 50 games at 27 mpg.

Also, there's still no guarantee he'll work well with Amare.



Of course, I also think KT's contribution to the team's defense is seriously overrated by a lot of people. It's the same error that had people voting Nash for MVP in 2004--the team's better, and the new guy gets all the credit.

IIRC, the Suns had the same pattern with their defense the previous year--stronger at first, then a gradual decline as the season wore on. IMO that pattern is tied to team effort more than any individual factor.

the Phoenix Suns were not just okay defensively prior to Kurt Thomas' injury. They were one of the best in the NBA on opponents points per possession. Last year I think I remember that the pattern was that they were poor defensively, but they were capable of playing good defense the last few minutes of the game to win the close ones.

It will be interesting to see what players the Phoenix Suns bring in now that Tim Thomas is gone.

Joe

 

[Chaplin]

the Phoenix Suns were not just okay defensively prior to Kurt Thomas' injury. They were one of the best in the NBA on opponents points per possession. Last year I think I remember that the pattern was that they were poor defensively, but they were capable of playing good defense the last few minutes of the game to win the close ones.

It will be interesting to see what players the Phoenix Suns bring in now that Tim Thomas is gone.

Joe

The problem is that a lot of fan opinion is based on recent events. Even without Amare, if Kurt Thomas had been around until the end of the season and not injured, we would have seriously been in contention for the #1/#2 seed in the West. We were actually a very well-rounded team at the time. Tim Thomas was a luck signing, which worked well. But we add Kurt back (and no Tim, of course), we have a great team again--and then throw in Amare Stoudemire, and we still are a favorite for the title. Easily.

 

[panfolk]

The problem is that a lot of fan opinion is based on recent events. Even without Amare, if Kurt Thomas had been around until the end of the season and not injured, we would have seriously been in contention for the #1/#2 seed in the West. We were actually a very well-rounded team at the time. Tim Thomas was a luck signing, which worked well. But we add Kurt back (and no Tim, of course), we have a great team again--and then throw in Amare Stoudemire, and we still are a favorite for the title. Easily.

I guess TT was too much of a luxury to have for depth.

 

[George O'Brien]

I guess TT was too much of a luxury to have for depth.

For the price, yes. If TT was a lot better defender, I'd say go for it and try to move someone like KT. But while I think he tried (which was not his reputation), he is not a particularly good defender and rebounder. For the right price, his ability to hit the three and drive the basket was great. But the Suns offer reflected his limitations as well.