Why the Cards cannot/should not pay Dansby

[BigDavis75]

That's what Somers suggested a couple weeks ago. It wouldn't be too detrimental if there isn't a salary cap.

Probably not detrimental at all, but if we are going to franchise him again why not just give him a deal and frontload the uncapped year and drop most of the bonuses there?

 

[BigDavis75]

The idea is that we could get three or four players to improve more areas of the defense. The potential glitch with that idea is huge. Since we are a top 8 team, we are severely limited in free agency. It's far from certain we could actually land that many free agents at all, much less good ones.

Also, who are these potential defensive free agents? I'm speaking specifically about the LBs too, outside of the experiment that would be Peppers I can't think of any good ones off the top of my head.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Yup!

A horrible, horrible, plan.

Never, never, EVER draft for need.

You end up with Wendall Bryant, Levi Brown and Bryant Johnson when you do.

The only good thing Denny did when he was here was to instill a BPA philosophy. We're receiving the dividends of those drafts now.

As soon as we start drafting to fill specific holes on the roster, we'll start reaching for players, and we'll be back at 6-10 before you can Randell "the thrill" Hill.

And I agree with the OP. Dansby is very good, but he's not a superstar.

If you want 10 million a year Karlos, then just go on with your bad self.

In 2010 if you have 3 ints, 2 FF, 4 sacks and 110 tackles, I'll say I was wrong. But your stat line for 2009 is not worth that kind of money (109 tackles, 1 FF, 1 int, and one sack).

Not even close KD. Sorry. Eight million a year is generous.

Ray "making big plays like Ray always does" Thompson was the best player on a bad defense too. But in truth he was average compared to other LBs in the league, and we made a good decision to let him go, and not overpay him.

 

[MrYeahBut]

If you want 10 million a year Karlos, then just go on with your bad self.

In 2010 if you have 3 ints, 2 FF, 4 sacks and 110 tackles,

If he wants 10 mil in 2010, instead of Los we could just call him 10 10

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ray "making big plays like Ray always does" Thompson was the best player on a bad defense too. But in truth he was average compared to other LBs in the league, and we made a good decision to let him go, and not overpay him.

come on Crimson. There is ZERO comparison between No Play Ray and Dansby. Every year prior to this year Dansby made plays EVERYWHERE. Ray NEVER made ANY plays ANYWHERE. Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Dansby playing most of the season long with two completely banged up shoulders? Guy was and has been a play-maker every step of his career and to be honest, without a cap next year, a one year tag to make one more run is worth it IMO. Without him, the LBing core of No Play Ray is EXACTLY what we'll have here as we try to gear up for one more title run.

 

[cardsfanmd]

I would really love this explained. How would we be a better team next year after Dansby is gone? This isn't just directed at you, anyone can answer this.

I was simply saying that there are better ways to spend 10 million dollars than on an inside linebacker. That really shouldn't need much explaining.

Maybe this will help. Dansby made 1 million more dollars last year than DeMarcus Ware, Kirk Morrison, Jon Beason and Brian Cushing COMBINED!!!!!!! So you're telling me those 4 guys wouldn't have done a little more for us than the Almighty Dansby and his 1 pick and 1 sack???

 

[OmeneX]

I wonder what Dansby's reaction would be if we Franchised him yet again during this uncapped year? His big splash would go bye bye. Hmm..

 

[OmeneX]

I was simply saying that there are better ways to spend 10 million dollars than on an inside linebacker. That really shouldn't need much explaining.

Maybe this will help. Dansby made 1 million more dollars last year than DeMarcus Ware, Kirk Morrison, Jon Beason and Brian Cushing COMBINED!!!!!!! So you're telling me those 4 guys wouldn't have done a little more for us than the Almighty Dansby and his 1 pick and 1 sack???

 

[cardsfanmd]

I wonder what Dansby's reaction would be if we Franchised him yet again during this uncapped year? His big splash would go bye bye. Hmm..

No it wouldn't. He would get like 13 million for this year and then still get a big deal next season. This man is on top of his game from a financial standpoint. He is going to retire much richer than many players who were much better. Kudos to him in those regards.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was simply saying that there are better ways to spend 10 million dollars than on an inside linebacker. That really shouldn't need much explaining.

Maybe this will help. Dansby made 1 million more dollars last year than DeMarcus Ware, Kirk Morrison, Jon Beason and Brian Cushing COMBINED!!!!!!! So you're telling me those 4 guys wouldn't have done a little more for us than the Almighty Dansby and his 1 pick and 1 sack???

and now I remember why I rarely visit this place. what a completely specious argument this is... unless of course you're saying we can actually get ALL of those guys (who are still on their rookie contracts) or four of those guys who play at that level for the price of one dansby?

bottom line, the above doesn't help because we couldn't spend 10 million dollars on those 4 players because, unless I'm mis... eh forget it. like i said, there's a reason i rarely post here anymore and probably won't be missed when i disappear again.

but before I leave...

watch Jerry Bruckheimer's MIAMI MEDICAL when it premieres on April 2nd on CBS. That's the show I'm writing for now! (and yes, it's ANOTHER medical drama, but until the viewing public decides they want to watch something besides cops, lawyers and doctors, we'll keep writing 'em! Screw Leno. Go Coco - cheesebeef out!)

 

[Duckjake]

I was simply saying that there are better ways to spend 10 million dollars than on an inside linebacker. That really shouldn't need much explaining.

Maybe this will help. Dansby made 1 million more dollars last year than DeMarcus Ware, Kirk Morrison, Jon Beason and Brian Cushing COMBINED!!!!!!! So you're telling me those 4 guys wouldn't have done a little more for us than the Almighty Dansby and his 1 pick and 1 sack???

You are only looking at salary with a prorated signing bonus amount.

Ware signed a new contract last year with a $20 million signing bonus and a $6million dollar salary. So he cost $26 million last year.

Morrison and his $2.5 million, sounds like he would fit right in with the guys in Arizona:

In four NFL seasons, Kirk Morrison has three sacks, 498 total tackles and seven picks. If only they counted how many times Morrison was blocked out of a play or whiffed when going to make a tackle, someone in the Raiders organization would realize he's not been playing good.

His inability to shed blocks and make open-field tackles just makes him painful to watch sometimes. Morrison is an average, at best, middle linebacker.

Cushing is a rookie who signed a contract with over $10 million guaranteed last season. (He was a first round pick so any first round guy we could get would cost at least $6-$7 million in guaranteed money).

Beason made $2.3 million.

So those 4 guys would have cost the Cards $41 million.

 

[BirdMan21]

Dansby is an above average player but not someone you build your defense around. He is not an anchor. Put him on a team with a group of good linebackers ala Ravens, 49ers, etc. and he will shine like a star because he will be surrounded by a cast of LBers that will make him look better.

Then everyone will be saying we should have kept him. Not true as here he would have remained a good solid LBer with flashes of greatness. Nothing more.

Agree 100%. He is a very good player, but he is not a game changer. He doesn't need amazing LBers around him, would just need a great defense around him and he is such a freak athlete that he would look like a monster and everyone would think the Cards were crazy for letting him leave. But if he goes somewhere like KC and signs a huge deal and is forced to lead that D he will be a solid player that will make the D better but one make a huge change right away. Just look at the number of Pro-Bowls and All-Pros the guy has made while here vs the amount we have paid him. Just doesn't add up.

But I do agree with Cheese, if Kurt decides to come back for another run I dont mind tagging him another year, paying him too much, drafting a bunch of middle backers and hope that we are in a positions to let him leave after next season without a huge gaping hole that him leaving now will leave. But if Kurt retires then I think we won't have a chance to win it all next year, and can start rebuilding that defense a year earlier.

 

[Totally_Red]

The problem with franchising Karlos is that his franchise tag number is north of $15 million. As I understand it, he would receive the average of the 5 highest PLAYERS, not the 5 highest linebackers or +20% from last years salary. Something about the third year being franchised drives up the cost exponentially.

That is Julius Peppers type money. I think the choices are a new deal or letting him go. Another franchise tag is extremely expensive.

 

[Duckjake]

Agree 100%. He is a very good player, but he is not a game changer. He doesn't need amazing LBers around him, would just need a great defense around him and he is such a freak athlete that he would look like a monster and everyone would think the Cards were crazy for letting him leave. But if he goes somewhere like KC and signs a huge deal and is forced to lead that D he will be a solid player that will make the D better but one make a huge change right away. Just look at the number of Pro-Bowls and All-Pros the guy has made while here vs the amount we have paid him. Just doesn't add up.

But I do agree with Cheese, if Kurt decides to come back for another run I dont mind tagging him another year, paying him too much, drafting a bunch of middle backers and hope that we are in a positions to let him leave after next season without a huge gaping hole that him leaving now will leave. But if Kurt retires then I think we won't have a chance to win it all next year, and can start rebuilding that defense a year earlier.

He sure changed the Green Bay playoff game. He was involved in 3 game altering plays in that contest alone. Without Dansby the Cards lose that game like they did at New Orleans.

But Dansby's gone. He won't stay in Arizona now unless the Cards offer him a huge contract. So it makes the Senior Bowl more interesting as it is highly likely the Cards take his replacement in round one. Just like they took Wells to replace Edge and Levi to replace BIG.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

i've resigned to the fact that people aren't going to realize how good Dansby was until he's gone. It's crazy to think some rookie is going have anywhere near the impact of that "non-game changer" Dansby had. The first 2 people the QB looked to find on the Cards defense were Wilson and Dansby. Teams game planned for Dansby. I doubt they're going to be too concerned with AJ Edds, Sean Lee, or whatever rookie you think is going to be thrwon in there.

If you think about he can be paid 12 mill and the Cards are still better off financially than last year at the LB position. Last year you had Okeafor making 5mill and Berry making 1 or 2 mill. That's 6 mill coming off the books. Brown and Dvais make next to nothing in the NFL. If you pay KD, you're still spending less on the LB position than you did last year.

 

[ajcardfan]

Maybe this will help. Dansby made 1 million more dollars last year than DeMarcus Ware, Kirk Morrison, Jon Beason and Brian Cushing COMBINED!!!!!!! So you're telling me those 4 guys wouldn't have done a little more for us than the Almighty Dansby and his 1 pick and 1 sack???

This argument is a classic "straw man". It's a totally ridiculous comparison.

 

[BigDavis75]

I was simply saying that there are better ways to spend 10 million dollars than on an inside linebacker. That really shouldn't need much explaining.

Maybe this will help. Dansby made 1 million more dollars last year than DeMarcus Ware, Kirk Morrison, Jon Beason and Brian Cushing COMBINED!!!!!!! So you're telling me those 4 guys wouldn't have done a little more for us than the Almighty Dansby and his 1 pick and 1 sack???

Others have addressed it already, but this really isn't a legitimate argument you could probably make 95% of players seem like they are overpaid with this argument. We will not be getting any of those guys anytime soon. What I wanted to know was exactly how having Dansby leave and saving that money would help this team next year.

I just don't see it right now with the weak FA crop and the inevitability that a rookie will make the D worse in his spot, but I'm certainly willing to listen.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I look at it this way. It all depends on Kurt. If he comes back, we have one more title run in us, thus i'd tag him for one more year while we draft defense (and more importantly LBers) like there's no tomorrow for the future. That gives us hopefully one last shot. At the same time, I'd jettison Q (we have a running game and WR is our greatest position of depth) and use whatever we get from that trade, plus our own pick to go heavy on D. Add in whatever Cody Brown/Will Davis are ready to provide and maybe, just maybe, we have a defense that has a little more depth to go along with an offense that should be even better than it was last year and the year before. I mean, if Kurt stays and we don't sign Dansby for the one year, we're looking at a Mackage-like LBer core who would probably be the worst in the NFL... in a defense wholly dependant on LBers. It doesn't make sense to bring Kurt back if the D is going to be the worst in the NFL and considering there's no one we can bring in to replace Dansby, as mediocre as the D already is, you take away it's QB/2nd or third best player and they will be atrocious. just my two cents.

in a year where FA mobility will be limited and we've only got one year left, tag him again and let him walk next year. that's the way I see it... unless Kurt retires, then he's not worth the long-term investment.

This.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

So glad there was another thread on this...

If the Cards aren't going to sign another impact free agent this offseason (and there aren't any besides Dansby, I'm not sure why they oughtn't re-sign him. There IS NO SALARY CAP THIS SEASON.

The players that we're currently starting on our defense make probably far below their current NFL value were they free agents (Dockett, Campbell, C. Brown, DRC). Wilson just signed a new deal, and Rolle will likely be re-signed to a reasonable contract in March or April (thanks for being crappy, Rashard Johnson).

The question is, when this team is probably not going to be able to spend big money on either their players (because besides Dansby, none are worth it) or on free agents (because free agency rules will not permit it), why wouldn't you pay Dansby 5 yrs, $40 million, $27 guaranteed? You're actually SAVING money in the first three years of the deal, which is probably when you'll either cut him or renegotiate?

He's alive! Welcome back.

 

[Duckjake]

This argument is a classic "straw man". It's a totally ridiculous comparison.

Especially when Dansby didn't make 1 million more than just 3 of those guys.

Morrison, DeWare and Beason made over $10 million last year.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I think all the jumping down on MD is shortsighted. The point he is making is (or maybe that I will make for him) is that what Dansby THINKS he is worth is no where comensurate with what he is. Maybe we have him out of position but to be honest we can draft a guy in the third round who can cover as a ILB and make the "plays" Dansby made. Kudos for that playoff game but again, I think he is the trend setter for the "turn it on and off" mentality this team and specifically this defense has.

I am not saying he is a mediocre player. Far from it. But to be honest I would rather have paid Calvin Pace what he got then Dansby what he wants. OLB is a much more important position and I think for a ILB, Hayes was much more in line with the ideal as the guy flowing to the ball and taking out ball carriers.

Karlos was a good second round pick. But he doesn't deserve top LB money which is what he wants, and what he will likely get because someone will get stupid with their cap room and give it to him.

I like the FO plan as it stands. Draft well, sign depth possible starters in FA, and retain the core. Karlos isn't the core. Give his money to DRC, Dockett, Campbell, and get a LB who IS part of the core.

Everyone wants to throw around Bidwill money like its nothing and there are no future ramifications. Screw that. You don't give 25 million guaranteed to a coverage LB'er who doesn't turnover the ball as much as every one seems to think.

Let someone else pay for what he brings to the table. If I am going to lock up long term money into my LB corps, its going to a passrushing OLB simple. And just becasue there isn't one to give the money to this offseason doesn't mean you give it to Dansby. You make long term decisions when giving up that much money.

That will be a decision you regret 2,3, and 4 years down the road.

Besides, manning up in your contract years isn't the guy I want to pay. I want guys who bring it always. Dansby might be a star somewhere else, but for 25 million, thats a bet I am willing to take.

And cheese i like your posts, but singling out one person and saying "this is why I don't come here" is pretty lame.

Just Sayin.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think all the jumping down on MD is shortsighted. The point he is making is (or maybe that I will make for him) is that what Dansby THINKS he is worth is no where comensurate with what he is. Maybe we have him out of position but to be honest we can draft a guy in the third round who can cover as a ILB and make the "plays" Dansby made. Kudos for that playoff game but again, I think he is the trend setter for the "turn it on and off" mentality this team and specifically this defense has.

I am not saying he is a mediocre player. Far from it. But to be honest I would rather have paid Calvin Pace what he got then Dansby what he wants. OLB is a much more important position and I think for a ILB, Hayes was much more in line with the ideal as the guy flowing to the ball and taking out ball carriers.

Karlos was a good second round pick. But he doesn't deserve top LB money which is what he wants, and what he will likely get because someone will get stupid with their cap room and give it to him.

I like the FO plan as it stands. Draft well, sign depth possible starters in FA, and retain the core. Karlos isn't the core. Give his money to DRC, Dockett, Campbell, and get a LB who IS part of the core.

Everyone wants to throw around Bidwill money like its nothing and there are no future ramifications. Screw that. You don't give 25 million guaranteed to a coverage LB'er who doesn't turnover the ball as much as every one seems to think.

Let someone else pay for what he brings to the table. If I am going to lock up long term money into my LB corps, its going to a passrushing OLB simple. And just becasue there isn't one to give the money to this offseason doesn't mean you give it to Dansby. You make long term decisions when giving up that much money.

That will be a decision you regret 2,3, and 4 years down the road.

Besides, manning up in your contract years isn't the guy I want to pay. I want guys who bring it always. Dansby might be a star somewhere else, but for 25 million, thats a bet I am willing to take.

And cheese i like your posts, but singling out one person and saying "this isn't why I don't come here" is pretty lame.

Just Sayin.

no personal offense was meant and if you'll notice, i never said MD was the reason i'm not around much anymore but i can see how one might take it that way since I gave up trying to express what i wanted to say. my thought was more about the type of post that was made as opposed to the poster himself. just not a fan of straw man/hyperbolic arguments that seemingly serve very little other purpose than to derail previously substantive discussions.

 

[BigDavis75]

I think all the jumping down on MD is shortsighted. The point he is making is (or maybe that I will make for him) is that what Dansby THINKS he is worth is no where comensurate with what he is. Maybe we have him out of position but to be honest we can draft a guy in the third round who can cover as a ILB and make the "plays" Dansby made. Kudos for that playoff game but again, I think he is the trend setter for the "turn it on and off" mentality this team and specifically this defense has.

I am not saying he is a mediocre player. Far from it. But to be honest I would rather have paid Calvin Pace what he got then Dansby what he wants. OLB is a much more important position and I think for a ILB, Hayes was much more in line with the ideal as the guy flowing to the ball and taking out ball carriers.

Karlos was a good second round pick. But he doesn't deserve top LB money which is what he wants, and what he will likely get because someone will get stupid with their cap room and give it to him.

I like the FO plan as it stands. Draft well, sign depth possible starters in FA, and retain the core. Karlos isn't the core. Give his money to DRC, Dockett, Campbell, and get a LB who IS part of the core.

Everyone wants to throw around Bidwill money like its nothing and there are no future ramifications. Screw that. You don't give 25 million guaranteed to a coverage LB'er who doesn't turnover the ball as much as every one seems to think.

Let someone else pay for what he brings to the table. If I am going to lock up long term money into my LB corps, its going to a passrushing OLB simple. And just becasue there isn't one to give the money to this offseason doesn't mean you give it to Dansby. You make long term decisions when giving up that much money.

That will be a decision you regret 2,3, and 4 years down the road.

Besides, manning up in your contract years isn't the guy I want to pay. I want guys who bring it always. Dansby might be a star somewhere else, but for 25 million, thats a bet I am willing to take.

And cheese i like your posts, but singling out one person and saying "this isn't why I don't come here" is pretty lame.

Just Sayin.

This idea that is going around that MLB is not an important position is severely flawed IMO. MLB is the heart of your defense and is the guy that makes the most tackles on your D. He is also often the guy that calls the plays and carries the most influence on a defense. Willis, Harris, Lewis, Beason, and so on are excellent players and constitute a large part of their respective defenses, just like Dansby does in ours.

Also, this concept of what positions deserve what money is stupid also. Alan Faneca was the best player on the last few Steelers SB teams, they let him go because of money issues now look at what he did to the team he went to. Safety was considered a position that shouldn't be paid or drafted high and now Ed Reed, Polamalu, and (soon) Eric Berry have changed these perceptions and now everyone realizes the value of safeties.

We have the money, if Warner comes back we have one more shot and we need Dansby as a piece on this defense. If we let him go, we are forced to draft for need and our ILB position immediately becomes the weakest on the roster.

All the posturing about the cap sounds great right now but when opening day comes and we see some sloppy coupling of a 3rd rounder and a hobbling Hayes we will be crying for Dansby.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

no personal offense was meant and if you'll notice, i never said MD was the reason i'm not around much anymore but i can see how one might take it that way since I gave up trying to express what i wanted to say. my thought was more about the type of post that was made as opposed to the poster himself. just not a fan of straw man/hyperbolic arguments that seemingly serve very little other purpose than to derail previously substantive discussions.

It was unnecessary, although I do agree the level of discourse has degenerated over the years. Still, taking pot shots is poor form, and you're better than that. More of you, Ouchie, K9, Krang among other deserters would help. All in all, the board has ebbs and flows, but is still worth sticking around.

One thing we can all agree on is how much we miss Jim. His loss is more acute as time goes on.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Also, this concept of what positions deserve what money is stupid also. Alan Faneca was the best player on the last few Steelers SB teams, they let him go because of money issues now look at what he did to the team he went to. .

Speaking of strawman arguments