Why you fire Kingsbury now

[QuebecCard]

Typically you first make the coaching decisions first. I would think Bidwill & his brain trust are discussing this now. This might include Keim, if secure. I’m expecting no changes. Next the head coach & DC meet with Keim. If there was an OC he’d be at that meeting. Then the GM meets with key influencers. That would be a guy like Fitz was. Between FA & Baker’s injury, it’s hard to ID a defensive player with whom to speak. That alone says volumes. If a coach is not involved, his job is in jeopardy. On offense I’d think they’d talk with Hopkins, Hudson and maybe Murray. The fact that the latter isn’t a certainty also says much. I’ve recommended a Bideill-Murray meeting without coaches takes place.

You do realize that this is simply conjectured, and is irrelevant to the process you outlined, right?

 

[QuebecCard]

In Bidwill vs Murray meeting, Keim will be under the desk. Bidwill doesn't sneeze at a football without Keim around. Keim in all likelihood will prevent a Bidwill Murray meet.

Sure, the day a tail wags a dog.

 

[Paso Fino]

I have been watching NFL football for several years starting with the Chicago
Cardinals. I cannot remember seeing two games as bad as the last two Cardinal's games. They alone are more than sufficient to terminate Kliff Kingsbury.

 

[slanidrac16]

I posted several of these but many on this board chose to count wins as more important than structural issues. In fact I got attacked for questioning how a team winning so much with an MVP QB could possibly have a bunch of issues. I’m impressed a player would speak out about this. I want to make it clear. These were just my opinions and I am not saying I have all the answers. In the movie Destry they talk about a guy that falls off a 5 story building and informs people on each floor he passes, “So far, so good.” I certainly could be wrong about some of my concerns. However, it’s important to keep in mind, wins can cover up deficiencies, but if you want to keep winning you have to fix those deficiencies. The Cards and many fans stayed worry-free until they paid the price.

This is why I don't understand some people saying we should never even consider changing head coaches. Based on the utter collapse over the last two years why would it be foolish to at least consider upgrading the head coach position? I have to believe there are some very uneasy moments with Kingsbury's end of year evaluation. It can't possibly be all candy and roses...or could it?

The White Sox made the playoffs two years ago. Everybody was happy. Suddenly they fire their manager , AFTER MAKING THE PLAYOFFS, and replaced him with Tony LaRussa.

If you knew a guy like Jim Harbaugh would push us over the top, why wouldn't we make that move or at least CONSIDER it? Of course one answer would be, Steve Keim. It ain't never going to happen. We will go into next year status quo hearing the same crap they been feeding us after the draft and free agent signings like last year. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[QuebecCard]

This is why I don't understand some people saying we should never even consider changing head coaches. Based on the utter collapse over the last two years why would it be foolish to at least consider upgrading the head coach position? I have to believe there are some very uneasy moments with Kingsbury's end of year evaluation. It can't possibly be all candy and roses...or could it?

The White Sox made the playoffs two years ago. Everybody was happy. Suddenly they fire their manager , AFTER MAKING THE PLAYOFFS, and replaced him with Tony LaRussa.

If you knew a guy like Jim Harbaugh would push us over the top, why wouldn't we make that move or at least CONSIDER it? Of course one answer would be, Steve Keim. It ain't never going to happen. We will go into next year status quo hearing the same crap they been feeding us after the draft and free agent signings like last year. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Well, you can't know!

What we do know is that under KK we've progressed from 5 to 8 to 11, and we don't know what year #4 will bring.

I don't think Bidwill and/or Keim have any reservations about considering changes after a proper post-mortem. However, they will likely conclude that in this case, KK deserves another season at the helm.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Well, you can't know!

What we do know is that under KK we've progressed from 5 to 8 to 11, and we don't know what year #4 will bring.

I don't think Bidwill and/or Keim have any reservations about considering changes after a proper post-mortem. However, they will likely conclude that in this case, KK deserves another season at the helm.

You're confusing correlation with causation. 5>8>11 could be a simple reflection of an improving roster and QB, and really is the only leg someone would have to stand on at this point.

Kliff has gotten 3 years, and his teams are consistently undisciplined and fall apart. This year was a failure -just ask JJ. Do you really think another year will fix Kliff's inadequacies as a head coach?

 

[QuebecCard]

You're confusing correlation with causation. 5>8>11 could be a simple reflection of an improving roster and QB, and really is the only leg someone would have to stand on at this point.

Kliff has gotten 3 years, and his teams are consistently undisciplined and fall apart. This year was a failure -just ask JJ. Do you really think another year will fix Kliff's inadequacies as a head coach?

I never confuse correlation with causation and offered the increase in wins as an illustration of a factor that could enter into the decision regarding KK immediate future.

Do I think another year will fix KK shortcomings? Don't know, but will certainly attempt to address that question when the results are in after season four.

 

[Harry]

You do realize that this is simply conjectured, and is irrelevant to the process you outlined, right?

Educated conjecture. I have been exposed to previous real patterns.

 

[slanidrac16]

Well, you can't know!

What we do know is that under KK we've progressed from 5 to 8 to 11, and we don't know what year #4 will bring.

I don't think Bidwill and/or Keim have any reservations about considering changes after a proper post-mortem. However, they will likely conclude that in this case, KK deserves another season at the helm.

Of course we can’t know. Yes the wins have increased. But if your going to use that as your only measuring stick then you have to include the record of the team in the second half of the season.
We are 0-8 in game clinching situations. 0-8! If we won one of our last two games last year we would have been in the playoffs. If we on 2 of our last 5 games this year we would have won the division. Do you see the trend? Losses to the Lions, Panthers, Colts and Seahawks, all teams that are not playoff teams.
We lost Hopkins and our offense goes to hell. Is that lack of talent or lack of adjustments? I understand Hopkins value but it’s not like you’re forced to play with 10 guys. I can understand a little drop off but a total collapse has seriously got to evaluated.
If you had a boxer that always won the first 7 rounds but gets knocked out in the 10th is that successful? After a few times you would have to change your strategy or keep watching him to get knocked out.
Eight meaningful games in two year and we couldn’t win one. And then we are told the playoff game is what Kyler lives for. Then we hear Kliff claim inexperience in playoff games.
I respect your opinion Q, but I am no longer going to let this organization piss on me and tell me it’s raining. Every decision made here on out that includes Keim and Kingsbury will be defined by me as the wrong decision until proven otherwise. That’s all they deserve from me.

 

[DaHilg]

You're confusing correlation with causation. 5>8>11 could be a simple reflection of an improving roster and QB, and really is the only leg someone would have to stand on at this point.

Kliff has gotten 3 years, and his teams are consistently undisciplined and fall apart. This year was a failure -just ask JJ. Do you really think another year will fix Kliff's inadequacies as a head coach?

There is plenty of facts that support causation...I fully feel this team has improved more so based on the talent and not selecting a bust as QB with our number 1 pick in 2019. The roster has elevated VASTLY from what it was in 2018 - even with Kiems blunders in the draft. I don't think it would have mattered if we had CoachBro or Coach JoeSchmo, this team had a good odds of being a playoff team within 3 years.

Fun fact.. From 1989 to 2020, 20 teams selected a QB as their #1 overall pick. 14 of those teams made the playoffs within 3 years from selecting their QB as the #1 overall pick. 70% of the teams went from worst in the league to being a playoff team within 3 years.

The 6 teams that did not make the playoffs, selected Quarterbacks that most would probably deem being colossal busts or had extenuating circumstances;

1. Jeff George - Bust...But actually took the team from 1 win to 9 wins in year 2.
2. Tim Couch - Bust...although almost qualified for the above fact in taking the Browns to playoffs in year 4.
3. David Carr - Not sure if you can consider him a bust or more of a factor of Texans being a brand new franchise.
4. Jamarcus Russell... perhaps the biggest bust of all time?
5. Sam Bradford...injury riddled.
6. Jameis Winston... Bust.. although led the Bucs to 9 wins in his second season.

Point being, I highly doubt coaching was the correlation of 70% of the teams making the playoffs like us within 3 seasons selecting a QB #1 overall in the last ~30 years. Strong evidence suggest your team and roster will improve enough within that 3 year span to improve enough to make the playoffs - baring you selected a colossal QB bust as your #1 pick. Heck, history suggest that you have an 80% chance of having at least a 9 win season within 3 years of selecting a QB #1 overall.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I never confuse correlation with causation and offered the increase in wins as an illustration of a factor that could enter into the decision regarding KK immediate future.

Do I think another year will fix KK shortcomings? Don't know, but will certainly attempt to address that question when the results are in after season four.

If the same thing happens again, I'm sure there will be people who see nothing wrong, and want to give KK another shot.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

It reminds me of the shot they had during the game showing Murray and Kirk chatting on the sidelines when the game was basically over. I wish I could have read their lips. It appeared as they were kind of being quiet about what they were talking about.

Spoiler

Kirk: "Unlimited lives? No way."
Murray: "Way, man. Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start"

 

[slanidrac16]

Spoiler

Kirk: "Unlimited lives? No way."
Murray: "Way, man. Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start"

Lol!

 

[QuebecCard]

Of course we can’t know. Yes the wins have increased. But if your going to use that as your only measuring stick then you have to include the record of the team in the second half of the season.
We are 0-8 in game clinching situations. 0-8! If we won one of our last two games last year we would have been in the playoffs. If we on 2 of our last 5 games this year we would have won the division. Do you see the trend? Losses to the Lions, Panthers, Colts and Seahawks, all teams that are not playoff teams.
We lost Hopkins and our offense goes to hell. Is that lack of talent or lack of adjustments? I understand Hopkins value but it’s not like you’re forced to play with 10 guys. I can understand a little drop off but a total collapse has seriously got to evaluated.
If you had a boxer that always won the first 7 rounds but gets knocked out in the 10th is that successful? After a few times you would have to change your strategy or keep watching him to get knocked out.
Eight meaningful games in two year and we couldn’t win one. And then we are told the playoff game is what Kyler lives for. Then we hear Kliff claim inexperience in playoff games.
I respect your opinion Q, but I am no longer going to let this organization piss on me and tell me it’s raining. Every decision made here on out that includes Keim and Kingsbury will be defined by me as the wrong decision until proven otherwise. That’s all they deserve from me.

I share your frustration.

But, I'm a glass-half-full kind of guy and don't think that they'll walk away from KK just yet.

 

[QuebecCard]

If the same thing happens again, I'm sure there will be people who see nothing wrong, and want to give KK another shot.

I doubt I'll be joining them unless we make the playoffs and get a win.

 

[THESMEL]

Again james Conner was not evaluated to be the starter, made pro bowl as a back up, 2nd stringer. Never seen a carry until the game was over, 5- 3 and outs an interception and another pick 6 in the first 1/2. this was against the 2 best pass rushers in history and top pass defense in the NFL. Cards were utterly obliterate, players and coached report they don’t know why? Above their pay grade!

Keim got the talent under the cap, but has not supervised any corrections to this over multiple coaches, he is a yes man Not a boss, he is Staffs only boss. We do not run early in most losses , winning teams do! we lose big games, without running, most teams do.
ain’t not secret rocket science. trick is none have corrected or even had he insight to recognize this fatal flaw. In public or private. Gotta go, get GM and staff that knows why they collapse, you know during the collapse! Not balls out lie to fans, media. Not really AZ media never asked, or even mention it until this Bickly piece, that gave it 1/3 of sentence.

Bickley: Kingsbury has to go after Cardinals' embarrassing loss to Rams

It’s time for a change. A new plan. A new head coach. And to complete the reboot, the team should unveil a host of brand new uniforms.

arizonasports.com

Too often, Kingsbury gets swallowed by these moments. And on Monday, he failed to get his quarterback in a comfort zone, failed to get James Conner rolling early, failed to get Zach Ertz involved in the offense.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Too often, Kingsbury gets swallowed by these moments. And on Monday, he failed to get his quarterback in a comfort zone, failed to get James Conner rolling early, failed to get Zach Ertz involved in the offense.

The problems I'm seeing with Kyler, I don't think anyone can fix that other than Kyler.

He has as much potential as I've ever seen in a QB, but it's on him to make plays and plenty are available for him to make.

 

[THESMEL]

The problems I'm seeing with Kyler, I don't think anyone can fix that other than Kyler.

He has as much potential as I've ever seen in a QB, but it's on him to make plays and plenty are available for him to make.

You do understand cards didn’t run and Rams raced at him like cards were behind by 21 to start the game? With von Miller and AAron Donald! We went for 5 3 and outs and 2 picks in the first 1/2! No QB had a chance! no oline! No defense! No special teams! That was their game plan and we knew it! They knew ours also!

no excuse for that in the payoffs, or any game for that matter. None

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Level of Cardinals head coach Kliff Kingsbury’s job security troublesome​

Bickley: Cardinals' Kliff Kingsbury's level of job security troublesome

Arizona Cardinals head coach Kliff Kingsbury is receiving a level of job security that is extremely rare in the NFL.

arizonasports.com

 

[Crimson Warrior]

In Bidwill vs Murray meeting, Keim will be under the desk. Bidwill doesn't sneeze at a football without Keim around. Keim in all likelihood will prevent a Bidwill Murray meet.

Well, I guess it's the time of year where we break out the tin foil hats and keep an eye out for black helicopters.

 

[football karma]

its kinda uncharted territory here for Bidwill

how often in the NFL do coaches that turned in a .647 win % in the regular season --with no off field issues -- get fired?

I dont think you win 11 games by accident or fluke.

But that last 7 weeks weren't a fluke either: they deserved every one of those Ls.

if the team picks up next year where it left off -- its a 5 win team.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

if the team picks up next year where it left off -- its a 5 win team.

And if we start the year strong -- we'll all be waiting for it to fall apart again.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Level of Cardinals head coach Kliff Kingsbury’s job security troublesome​

Bickley: Cardinals' Kliff Kingsbury's level of job security troublesome

Arizona Cardinals head coach Kliff Kingsbury is receiving a level of job security that is extremely rare in the NFL.

arizonasports.com

It isn't troublesome. Right or wrong, how many coaches have been fired after winning 11 games that year? Very, very few.

 

[Arz101]

And if we start the year strong -- we'll all be waiting for it to fall apart again.

It only happened like 10 consecutive times under Kliff and you are doubting him? SMH

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think I'm in the minority here:

I would definitely bring back Kingsbury. Do I think there are some levels of dysfunction on this team? Probably, but the end result was an 11-6 campaign.

The team DID fall apart down the stretch, but I think this is a function of Kyler Murray. Murray seems to alternate between being captain checkdown, or holding the ball too long waiting for the big play. During the initial stretch to start the year, Murray was actually playing QB the right way for the most part, alternating between taking what the defense gave him and sometimes holding the ball a little longer to hit a big play down the field. After the injury, Murray came back different. He seemed to be pressing and as we all have noticed, he seems to mentally check out any time the team gets down initially.

It can be argued that Kingsbury has to fix Murray's proclivities. I get that, but I don't think we can reasonably expect a coach, with limited time weekly to fix these issues. I blame Kyler Murray for these issues; these issues are related to his lack of preparation. One of the life lessons I've learned in the Army is that better prepared people tend to perform better.

Hard work often beats natural talent. Growing up, I was always the most intelligent kid in every class I was in. I didn't have to study or work hard at all. I was just always really good at retaining and processing information. But when I came into the military, I quickly learned that people that worked harder than I did, often performed better.

Murray is the most explosive talent I've ever seen play QB. He can out run nearly anyone on the field and he can throw a deep ball better than all but a few QBs I've ever witnessed. But this talent isn't enough. It never will be. His lack of preparation is even more exacerbated by his lack of starts in college. Murray, development wise, is closer to a QB that just completed year two than a QB that completed year three.

There is a reason that HOF caliber coaches and talent evaluators like Bill Parcells, Gil Brandt, and Bill Walsh all highly valued QBs that had lots of college starts. Talent + preparation + experience is the recipe for a good NFL QB. The Cardinals witnessed the tail end of two highly talented QBs over the past two decades in Warner and Palmer. If I'm the Cardinals, I'm reaching out to both Palmer AND Warner and I'm trying to get both of them to talk with Murray, to work with him a bit, to mentor him.

I think it was @Chopper0080 who pointed out that Kingsbury won two of three games that Colt McCoy started. We all have probably seen Colt McCoy as a starting QB in the past, so we have a pretty good baseline of his talent level. McCoy probably had two of his best games ever and I don't think it was a coincidence. Kingsbury schemed great games for a QB that lacks talent a bit, but has experience and prepares the right way.

I think if you flipped Murray and Stafford around, the Cardinals likely win 14 games this year. And I say this as a guy who would still prefer Murray. I just think that Murray cost the Cardinals a number of games this year that a pro's pro would have won.