Why you fire Kingsbury now

[Totally_Red]

I think Keim and Kingsbury are attached at the hip. You don't fire one without firing the other. I think both are gone after the 2022 season barring a deep playoff run and dramatic improvement by Kyler Murray.

It is difficult to fire a coach after winning 11 games and making improvement over a 3 year run. Problem is the coaches have not really developed talent aside from Budda Baker and he was developed by the previous regime. Other teams in the division develop their draft choices; the Cardinals haven't.

This year's hot start was largely due to an infusion of veterans. That is unsustainable going forward.

The next regime in 2023 may have some high draft choices to rebuild with.

 

[Totally_Red]

It isn't troublesome. Right or wrong, how many coaches have been fired after winning 11 games that year? Very, very few.

Shottenheimer at SD is the only one that comes to mind.

 

[football karma]

After the injury, Murray came back different. He seemed to be pressing and as we all have noticed, he seems to mentally check out any time the team gets down initially.

Yards per pass attempt pre-bye: 7.91 [this includes Colt] K1 was 8.28
Yards per pass attempt post-bye: 6.22

for perspective: a QB with a 8.28 YPA is top 3 in the NFL / a QB with a 6.2 is close to last

in that regard, he literally went from one of the best QBs to one of the worst

for the two games he had Hop post bye: his YPA was 7. thats a bit below average
for the remaining games without Hop: YPA was 5.6. thats Josh Rosen territory


so what happened? i have my theories but need to research

 

[DaHilg]

its kinda uncharted territory here for Bidwill

how often in the NFL do coaches that turned in a .647 win % in the regular season --with no off field issues -- get fired?

I dont think you win 11 games by accident or fluke.

But that last 7 weeks weren't a fluke either: they deserved every one of those Ls.

if the team picks up next year where it left off -- its a 5 win team.

I do I wrote an entire post about it.. I believe this team had its success through roster additions.

Fact; Over the past 32 seasons 20 teams selected a QB with the #1 pick overall. 70% of those teams went to the playoffs with 3 years of that selection. 80% of the teams had a 9 win season within 3 years of that selection.

Thus history shows it likely doesn’t matter who your coach is. You are likely to go from worst in the league to playoffs within 3 years of you selecting at QB #1 overall unless you select a complete bust as QB.

 

[QuebecCard]

Shottenheimer at SD is the only one that comes to mind.

And he got fired after losing a 'power' duel.

 

[Totally_Red]

And he got fired after losing a 'power' duel.

Same as Flores.

 

[Chopper0080]

It isn't troublesome. Right or wrong, how many coaches have been fired after winning 11 games that year? Very, very few.

And yet many GMs have been fired for filtering through three HCs and no playoff wins. Yet, no local coverage that I have seen calling for Keim to be fired.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And yet many GMs have been fired for filtering through three HCs and no playoff wins. Yet, no local coverage that I have seen calling for Keim to be fired.

1 playoff win... in 9 seasons as GM. Only 3 playoff appearances. All ending with HUMILIATING losses.

How any GM could be safe with that lack of playoff appearances, success, and punctuated by record setting ineptitude once in the playoffs, is beyond me.

 

[football karma]

1 playoff win... in 9 seasons as GM. Only 3 playoff appearances. All ending with HUMILIATING losses.

if I'm the owner -- this on top of watching the #8 and #16 overall draft picks from the last two years spend most of their time on the sideline in the most important game in the last 5 seasons or so might do it

 

[Brian in Mesa]

It isn't troublesome. Right or wrong, how many coaches have been fired after winning 11 games that year? Very, very few.

In the last 21 years, 9 coaches have been fired after winning seasons. 2 won more than 11 games. 5 were coaches of playoff teams. 2 had won playoff games.

You must be registered for see images attach

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/will-the-cardinals-fire-kliff-kingsbury-another-late-season-collapse-spurs-questions-about-coachs-job-security/ar-AASU1vt#:~:text=Since 2000, nine coaches have been fired after,massive shock to see them make a change.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

It's just a loser mentality. Nobody demands excellence from any of the local teams, and we get mostly a crap product.

The notable exception these days is our Phoenix Suns. Watching the Suns last night made me think about how far away the Cards really are. We know EXACTLY what the Suns stand for, how they operate, and each player's individual role. We know all the players respect Monty, and that everyone steps in line. Does anyone have any idea what the Cards identity is at this point other than first half champs who collapse when games matter?

if people look at Kliff vs. Monty as a leader, is there even a discussion? Kliff is no doubt a smart guy, but a leader of men? I don't see it.

 

[DVontel]

It's just a loser mentality. Nobody demands excellence from any of the local teams, and we get mostly a crap product.

The notable exception these days is our Phoenix Suns. Watching the Suns last night made me think about how far away the Cards really are. We know EXACTLY what the Suns stand for, how they operate, and each player's individual role. We know all the players respect Monty, and that everyone steps in line. Does anyone have any idea what the Cards identity is at this point other than first half champs who collapse when games matter?

if people look at Kliff vs. Monty as a leader, is there even a discussion? Kliff is no doubt a smart guy, but a leader of men? I don't see it.

I don’t watch Suns ball, but how does the GM of the Suns compare to Keim as well?

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's just a loser mentality. Nobody demands excellence from any of the local teams, and we get mostly a crap product.

The notable exception these days is our Phoenix Suns. Watching the Suns last night made me think about how far away the Cards really are. We know EXACTLY what the Suns stand for, how they operate, and each player's individual role. We know all the players respect Monty, and that everyone steps in line. Does anyone have any idea what the Cards identity is at this point other than first half champs who collapse when games matter?

if people look at Kliff vs. Monty as a leader, is there even a discussion? Kliff is no doubt a smart guy, but a leader of men? I don't see it.

For the team to have literally ZERO identity after three years is pathetic.

The only thing this team IS known for is when the heat is on in the second half of the season, they completely meltdown.

 

[DaHilg]

In the last 21 years, 9 coaches have been fired after winning seasons. 2 won more than 11 games. 5 were coaches of playoff teams. 2 had won playoff games.

You must be registered for see images attach

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/will-the-cardinals-fire-kliff-kingsbury-another-late-season-collapse-spurs-questions-about-coachs-job-security/ar-AASU1vt#:~:text=Since 2000, nine coaches have been fired after,massive shock to see them make a change.

And I bet of those, none finished the season 1-5 with a blowout playoff loss.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I don’t watch Suns ball, but how does the GM of the Suns compare to Keim as well?

Ha, couldn't be more different? He's drafted well, and has had success in free agency (which immediately differentiates him from Keim)

No criminal record for reckless behavior, check.

He's built a team that makes sense, where players fill specific roles, and rarely are players asked to do things to do outside of their position/role. The Suns offense/defense is a thing of beauty as well - everyone works in harmony, they all cover for each other, and the sum is greater than the parts. (Which are pretty good)

Character is a huge part of the players that the Suns bring in, and the leadership from CP to Book to everyone else falling in line is obvious. The fellas even hang out as friends - it's seriously old school "ubuntu" but real.

Do the Cards look like they enjoy themselves? Is this an enjoyable team to watch? Between Kyler's pouting/bad body language, to the marked lack of effort from the team overall from the 1st half to the 2nd, it's a team that failed massively, and completely fell apart. By the end of the year, the offense could barely move the ball, and the D was somehow even worse. That HAS to be on the leadership.

You could hear the anger in JJ's voice, a guy who put himself in danger to kill himself and get back, just to see the team roll over from the first play. JJ was the ONLY one who showed up and put in the necessary effort, even with half an arm. The rest of the team is clueless and rudderless, and Kyler was incredibly disappointing. Good teams have an identity, and good teams fight. There's a reason we went 1-5 in our last six games. THIS ISN'T PROGRESS!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ha, couldn't be more different? He's drafted well, and has had success in free agency (which immediately differentiates him from Keim)

No criminal record for reckless behavior, check.

He's built a team that makes sense, where players fill specific roles, and rarely are players asked to do things to do outside of their position/role. The Suns offense/defense is a thing of beauty as well - everyone works in harmony, they all cover for each other, and the sum is greater than the parts. (Which are pretty good)

Character is a huge part of the players that the Suns bring in, and the leadership from CP to Book to everyone else falling in line is obvious. The fellas even hang out as friends - it's seriously old school "ubuntu" but real.

Do the Cards look like they enjoy themselves? Is this an enjoyable team to watch? Between Kyler's pouting/bad body language, to the marked lack of effort from the team overall from the 1st half to the 2nd, it's a team that failed massively, and completely fell apart. By the end of the year, the offense could barely move the ball, and the D was somehow even worse. That HAS to be on the leadership.

You could hear the anger in JJ's voice, a guy who put himself in danger to kill himself and get back, just to see the team roll over from the first play. JJ was the ONLY one who showed up and put in the necessary effort, even with half an arm. The rest of the team is clueless and rudderless, and Kyler was incredibly disappointing. Good teams have an identity, and good teams fight. There's a reason we went 1-5 in our last six games. THIS ISN'T PROGRESS!

Yeah though football and basketball are such different beasts you make really good points.

Monty is a leader of men. And he holds players accountable without being the jerk that some posters have intimated has to be the case if your a coach that holds players accountable. In fact, monty’s players would run through walls for him. He has a very specific identity for the team, clear philosophies that his players can even repeat, and specific assignments for players within their individual skill sets. I can’t say any of that for kliff.

And James jones is also as far removed from keim as possible. Soft spoken, and humble. Has played on championship teams. Has a template for the types of players and skills he targets. Not afraid to take a risk, but it’s always a calculated risk. Players also seem to be big fans of his. And he seemingly works well with Monty. Again, I think he’s a far cry from keim.

 

[football karma]

For the team to have literally ZERO identity after three years is pathetic.

if there is one single reason why i would justify replacing Kliff --- its this

i suspect Kliff is a good offensive football tactician: he can design plays, attack Ds. I think he runs an program that players appreciate ( "he treats us like men" is a quote you hear a lot) --- doesnt mean its a country club, etc -- but he is even keeled, isnt a martinet, etc.

the problem is culture and identity -- what is it? could Kliff describe the team's identity or culture? With both SF and LAR -- the common theme on why they surged during the back half "they got back to who they were" Im not sure if the Cardinal players know "who they are."

as said earlier: it could be that Kliff is one of those "transition coaches" -- can get you from terrible to winning, but not championship level.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

if there is one single reason why i would justify replacing Kliff --- its this

i suspect Kliff is a good offensive football tactician: he can design plays, attack Ds. I think he runs an program that players appreciate ( "he treats us like men" is a quote you hear a lot) --- doesnt mean its a country club, etc -- but he is even keeled, isnt a martinet, etc.

the problem is culture and identity -- what is it? could Kliff describe the team's identity or culture? With both SF and LAR -- the common theme on why they surged during the back half "they got back to who they were" Im not sure if the Cardinal players know "who they are."

as said earlier: it could be that Kliff is one of those "transition coaches" -- can get you from terrible to winning, but not championship level.

I strongly believe this.

 

[football karma]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

this is true

on the other hand: Mike B has two guys in the building who have been developed for the role in Quentin Harris and Adrian Wilson

 

[Harry]

Well, I guess it's the time of year where we break out the tin foil hats and keep an eye out for black helicopters.

Kirby Smart is in town recruiting. I got a look at his helicopter. It’s black!

 

[Harry]

ESPN headline, JIC you haven’t seen it, “Has Arizona Cardinals coach Kliff Kingsbury reached his ceiling?” Couldn’t capture the link.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

ESPN headline, JIC you haven’t seen it, “Has Arizona Cardinals coach Kliff Kingsbury reached his ceiling?” Couldn’t capture the link.

Has Arizona Cardinals coach Kliff Kingsbury reached his ceiling?

Kingsbury's teams have made steady progress since he took over, but an embarrassing playoff loss is the latest red flag.

www.espn.com

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

this is true

on the other hand: Mike B has two guys in the building who have been developed for the role in Quentin Harris and Adrian Wilson

Man I really understand loyalty, but what that means he’s never been exposed to the way any other team does things. He hasn’t worked for an organization that’s recognized for prolonged success. So he doesn’t have that experience or influence.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Man I really understand loyalty, but what that means he’s never been exposed to the way any other team does things. He hasn’t worked for an organization that’s recognized for prolonged success. So he doesn’t have that experience or influence.

Bidwill needs to pay attention to my username.

 

[Stout]

if there is one single reason why i would justify replacing Kliff --- its this

i suspect Kliff is a good offensive football tactician: he can design plays, attack Ds. I think he runs an program that players appreciate ( "he treats us like men" is a quote you hear a lot) --- doesnt mean its a country club, etc -- but he is even keeled, isnt a martinet, etc.

the problem is culture and identity -- what is it? could Kliff describe the team's identity or culture? With both SF and LAR -- the common theme on why they surged during the back half "they got back to who they were" Im not sure if the Cardinal players know "who they are."

as said earlier: it could be that Kliff is one of those "transition coaches" -- can get you from terrible to winning, but not championship level.

Very well said. I think it's pretty clear KK has reached his ceiling with this team. I and most others don't see us getting better under him. You can easily commend him for righting the ship, per se, while still recognizing he has to go.