Would Dampier Be Worth The Price?

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by elindholm
You can make a case for Divac, I'll give you that one.

How about Detroit and Ben Wallace? Do sign-and-trades count?


(B) might wind up looking (personnel-wise) like the Barkley Suns, except those Suns didn't have an adequate center. I think there would be opportunities for that team under the right circumstances.


The other thing is, what about this year's draft pick? What if it turns into Okafor or Howard? There's your second superstar right there...

Even if the pick is lower, we've seen what the Suns can do with the #9 pick; maybe they'll get an even better player with the #7.

 

[elindholm]

How about Detroit and Ben Wallace?

You think Ben Wallace is overpaid?

I have nothing against getting a center upgrade for cheap. At his current salary, Wallace is a steal.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog

(B) might wind up looking (personnel-wise) like the Barkley Suns, except those Suns didn't have an adequate center. I think there would be opportunities for that team under the right circumstances.

What is your definition of adequate? Barkley's first two seasons in the league, we were clearly the best team in the NBA--we didn't lose the finals because we didn't have an adequate center, we lost because Michael Jordan was the best basketball player on the planet.

So, IMO, the comparison of centers between now and back then isn't very good.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
How about :

Amare becomes an elite player
Marion returns to his all-star form
JJ becomes a near all-star level player
Barbosa and/or Vujanic become a top ten PG
Cabakapa becomes sixth man of the year

and the Suns have Voskuhl at center

How about it? That team wouldn't be a title contender, and I still maintain that adding Bryant to it would help more than upgrading the center position.

Also, I don't know why you're so down on Voskuhl. He commits stupid fouls, but he should, eventually, be able to learn how to avoid that. I disagree with you that he is particularly weak or undersized -- he certainly looks at least as big as Camby or as strong as Divac. He moves well and even has a decent set shot from 12-15 feet. He is by far the best rebounder on the Suns from a technique standpoint, by which I mean he actually knows how to box out. In my opinion his hands are pretty good (even though he brings the ball down low more than he should) and he's a fairly reliable finisher around the basket -- he'd be in the top five in the league in FG% if he had enough attempts to qualify. It's true that he's not a shot-blocker, but neither is Brad Miller, of whom you seem so enamored. And he's still fairly young at 26.

In short, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Voskuhl gets to the level where, the next time he is a free agent (summer 2006), he's in a position to command MLE money.

I am not concerned about Jake's offensive, it's his defense. Jake's inability to block shots, to hold centers out of the lane, or defend without double team help are a major concern to me. He is a quality backup, but to assume he is physically capable of being a mid level center is being especially optomistic.

I am not the first person to suggest that offense wins during the regular season, but defense wins in the playoffs. The Suns rely too much on zones and traps because their man defense is so weak. All the players need to improve, but without a good defensive center the whole defense is vulnerable.

If White lost weight and became a lot quicker, he might actually meet the Suns needs. But unfortunately, he is too slow and fouls a lot because of it. (White's offensive skills are very poor, but they could be improved - but I have to wonder about his conditioning).

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I really dont understand the Dampier target at all. He has had 1 good half year, in a contract year.

Sounds kind of like Kandi to me. Remember when he was holding out for a max contract after his decent season? He didnt get it, but I would assume the clips might have agreed(well maybe not the clipps) if he was asking for 6-7 million a year.

Right now he isn't even worth the MLE.

 

[elindholm]

Jake's inability to block shots, to hold centers out of the lane, or defend without double team help are a major concern to me.

Do opposing centers tend to have especially big nights against the Suns? This is an honest question; I don't know the answer. It doesn't seem to me that the Suns have been getting blown away in the center matchup too often.

If, as you suggest, the problem is more that none of the Suns can play one-on-one defense, so that people are always open, then that's hardly Voskuhl's fault. My impression is that Voskuhl is a pretty effective double-teamer (when he's the second one coming over), because he can anticipate where the ball is going and is really pretty quick for someone his size. So that leaves his man open, but that's a fault of the defensive scheme, not his defensive shortcomings.

Edit: Regarding White, I seriously doubt that his offensive skills could be improved, short of innovative finger-lengthening surgery. This is his sixth year in the league and I think he is what he is.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by elindholm
How about Detroit and Ben Wallace?

You think Ben Wallace is overpaid?

I have nothing against getting a center upgrade for cheap. At his current salary, Wallace is a steal.

Of course he's not overpaid now. Neither is Vlade, or Brad Miller for that matter.

Back then, though, he was asking for too much for Orlando, and I don't recall any team banging on his door besides Detroit...I guess his salary back then would translate to little more than the MLE now, though...

 

[elindholm]

Of course he's not overpaid now. Neither is Vlade, or Brad Miller for that matter.

Wallace makes $5.5 million this season, Miller $7.0 million, and Divac $12.1 million. For the minutes that he is able to play, I think it's safe to say that Divac is overpaid.

Back then, though, he was asking for too much for Orlando, and I don't recall any team banging on his door besides Detroit.

I don't remember, so I'll trust you on this. You raise an interesting point, which is whether the Suns could "steal" a free-agent center for cheap (roughly MLE money) when no one else sees that player's potential. That's basically what Detroit did with Wallace, from your description of things.

I'd be enthusiastic about that possibility, but I don't think giving Dampier $8-$10 million per year would qualify. I guess the Suns would be setting their sights more at the Chris Mihm level (he's a RFA this summer), which I have to say doesn't thrill me at all.

 

[George O'Brien]

There are a bunch of guys that MIGHT be good, but aren't yet: Curry, Diop, and Mihm come to mind. Mihm and Diop havne't shown much and would be cheap.

The other category includes Okur who is likely to get a big contract more on his potential than what he has proven. Three years from now he could ranked in the overpaid group or as a steal.

One of the weird things is how many big men have to change teams before they produce: J'O'Neal (orignially Portland), Brad Miller (originally Chicago), Ben Wallace (originally Washington), Kevin Cato (originally Portland), Dampier (originally Indiana), to name a few. Some guys take four, five, even six years before they become productive.

Others never do.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm watching the Cleveland Cavaliers right now. I wonder what it would take to get Diop out of Cleveland. Every time I've seen him he seems to ooze untapped potential. I will admit I've only seen him a few times however. I also know that he has had some injury problems with his feet.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Some guys take four, five, even six years before they become productive.

All the more reason not to declare Voskuhl a lost cause.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Some guys take four, five, even six years before they become productive.

All the more reason not to declare Voskuhl a lost cause.

The big difference is "tools". Diop is 7'0" 285 and very mobile. His problem is conditioning and skills development - and maybe desire.

Jake will become more skillful, but he will never become more athletic. He will never be a great jumper, his arms will never get longer, his hands will never get bigger, and he will only become marginally stronger. He has a big heart and that counts for a lot, but only up to a point.

Jake is in his 4th season and it is his best. But he has only 4.9 rpg in 24.1 minutes and blocks a tiny .4 per game. His minutes are limited because he makes 4.2 fouls per game.

I'm glad he's on the Suns, but people are dismissing Dampier who has 11.4 rpg, 1.61 blocks per game in 32.1 minutes.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien


I'm glad he's on the Suns, but people are dismissing Dampier who has 11.4 rpg, 1.61 blocks per game in 32.1 minutes.

Which has been pointed out as sort of a "fluke" because it is a contract year. He's always been an underachieving player, and after being in the league as long as he has, there is no reason to think that he has changed.

 

[elindholm]

Diop is 7'0" 285 and very mobile. His problem is conditioning and skills development - and maybe desire.

Oh, good. As long as it's nothing serious.

Jake will become more skillful, but he will never become more athletic. He will never be a great jumper, his arms will never get longer, his hands will never get bigger, and he will only become marginally stronger.

That's all true. I disagree with you about Voskuhl's mobility, which I think is above average, and there are plenty of good centers who can't jump. But you're right that he will never be a star.

I'm glad he's on the Suns, but people are dismissing Dampier who has 11.4 rpg, 1.61 blocks per game in 32.1 minutes.

Come on. No one is saying that Dampier wouldn't be an improvement. The question is whether he'd be an improvement worthy of a huge investment. If Dampier wants to come to the Suns for Voskuhl-level money, I'm all for that.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Which has been pointed out as sort of a "fluke" because it is a contract year. He's always been an underachieving player, and after being in the league as long as he has, there is no reason to think that he has changed.

A fluke or a guy who has been slow to develop?

I'm not really comfortable with the amount of money he would command. Unfortunately, I think the same could be said aboutn most other centers.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
A fluke or a guy who has been slow to develop?

I'm not really comfortable with the amount of money he would command. Unfortunately, I think the same could be said aboutn most other centers.

Don't forget about his age either. I think out of all positions, the worst one to have an aging player is center.

 

[PhxGametime]

I don't want to go through every single Yearbook but Dampier has had season's of 1.8 blks and 2.0+ and last year had a decent rebound per 48 min, along with this year... 6-7 Million for Dampier isn't too bad IMO...

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

Jake will become more skillful, but he will never become more athletic. He will never be a great jumper, his arms will never get longer, his hands will never get bigger, and he will only become marginally stronger. He has a big heart and that counts for a lot, but only up to a point.

The only real problem with Little Jake is that he is undersized. There is nothing wrong with his jumping ability. In fact he is one of the better centers in the NBA as far as athleticism is concerned.


Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by BbaLL_31
I don't want to go through every single Yearbook but Dampier has had season's of 1.8 blks and 2.0+ and last year had a decent rebound per 48 min, along with this year... 6-7 Million for Dampier isn't too bad IMO...

Sorry, but I don't think a 2.0 block per game average is worth overpaying a 30-year-old center 2-3 million dollars.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Sorry, but I don't think a 2.0 block per game average is worth overpaying a 30-year-old center 2-3 million dollars.

How much would you pay?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
How much would you pay?

For what? A center that blocks 2 shots a game for probably a year or two, or a center that blocks more than one shot a game and will continue to do so for 6 more years?

I'd pay for the 2nd one.

Unfortunately, you're basing all this on a market that fluctuates more than the stock market. Dampier will undoubtedly ask for 7-8 million a year. And you're willing to pay that?? How much would I pay for him? Not much--3-4 mil AT MOST for only 1 or 2 years. He's just not a good fit with this team. Why? 2 reasons: 1, his age, and 2, he has not proven that he is worth more than 4 million dollars a year.

You are definitely a guy that is more than willing to overpay for a center that is just slightly more than mediocre. I, however, am not willing to do that.