Would you want Phil Jackson coaching this team next year?

[se7en]

Can you see it? Phil Jackson as new coach of your Phoenix Suns. I don't think it's out of the realm of plausibility. Especially with the new ownership in place. There's talk that Jordan is buying into the franchise as well (so they're saying on Los Angeles sports talk radio stations). Steve Kerr is already in.

The Lakers of course broke off contract negotiations with Phil during the season essentially making him a lame duck coach. I have a feeling that he'd see the Suns as a positive change with the young talent and new ownership. Especially considering the BS he's had to deal with this past season.

The only downside I can see is that we couldn't have both Phil and Kobe. Since they don't seem to have a very good relationship. Kobe has even stated in interviews that he doesn't like Phil as a person, only as a coach. Yes it's true that he said that. So if Kobe is not an option this off season I would take Phil instead.

Who wouldn't want to play for Phil and an up and coming young Suns team?

I think it's a solid idea. And I think it's in the realm of plausibility. Any takers?

 

[Ryanwb]

I hate the triangle offense

 

[se7en]

I hate the triangle offense

Yeah, I hate the idea of winning championships as well.

 

[Ryanwb]

Yeah, I hate the idea of winning championships as well.

Phil won't come here, he doesn't have a proven super star's coat tail he can ride on.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

I've always compared Phil Jackson to be the NBA's equivalent to Joe Torre... Would Jackson have achieved such greatness without the likes of Michael Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq?

 

[se7en]

Phil won't come here, he doesn't have a proven super star's coat tail he can ride on.

I think Amare fits the bill. Throw in Marion, JJ, top 7 draft pick and a 1st teir free agent and I'd say Phil would be looking at a pretty nice team to coach.

 

[Ryanwb]

He needs to go to Houston....Yao Ming has simply been wasted in Houston the last 2 years. He is the best passing center since Bill Walton and has some mad skilz, but they misuse him...pisses me off

 

[slinslin]

I don't like Phil Jackson, I don't like the triangle offense and I don't like Yao Ming.

But I would be all for Michael Jordan, especially if he doesn't have much control but a similiar position like Steve Kerr.

 

[Ryanwb]

But I would be all for Michael Jordan, especially if he doesn't have much control but a similiar position like Steve Kerr.

..because he did a brilliant job with Washington :roll:

 

[F-Dog]

Except for Amare, the Suns are the antithesis of a Phil Jackson team. And Amare is still a couple of years away.

IMO the Rockets are the main team that would interest him, if he gives up on the Lakers after this year.


Michael Jordan with the Suns? No thanks.

 

[fordronken]

You're all out of your minds.

 

[George O'Brien]

I can't see any possible reason why the Suns would want Jackson or Jackson would want the Suns.

BTW, today they announced a three year buyout that leaves the current management team in place. Brian and Jerry will be doing exactly the same things they have been doing, except now it will be with other people's money.

 

[Errntknght]

"BTW, today they announced a three year buyout that leaves the current management team in place. Brian and Jerry will be doing exactly the same things they have been doing, except now it will be with other people's money."

Don't be so doggone pessimistic George. Heck, if I bought the team I'd leave the management in place for a while. The new owner doesn't seem to consider himself a basketball genius which means he's going to talk to knowledgeable people - some of whom are bound to have noticed BC's choice of coaches has been horrible and that he acquires and dispenses with players with no concept of what kind of a team he is assembling. How could anyone miss the fact that three years ago he boldly announced a 'new direction' for the Suns and the only discernible direction the team went is down. BC's days are numbered... I doubt he'll last two years.

 

[Joe Mama]

"BTW, today they announced a three year buyout that leaves the current management team in place. Brian and Jerry will be doing exactly the same things they have been doing, except now it will be with other people's money."

Don't be so doggone pessimistic George. Heck, if I bought the team I'd leave the management in place for a while. The new owner doesn't seem to consider himself a basketball genius which means he's going to talk to knowledgeable people - some of whom are bound to have noticed BC's choice of coaches has been horrible and that he acquires and dispenses with players with no concept of what kind of a team he is assembling. How could anyone miss the fact that three years ago he boldly announced a 'new direction' for the Suns and the only discernible direction the team went is down. BC's days are numbered... I doubt he'll last two years.

It will obviously take awhile to prove, but I'll bet you that Bryan Colangelo is still here as general manager in 4 years.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

The new owner doesn't seem to consider himself a basketball genius which means he's going to talk to knowledgeable people - some of whom are bound to have noticed BC's choice of coaches has been horrible and that he acquires and dispenses with players with no concept of what kind of a team he is assembling. How could anyone miss the fact that three years ago he boldly announced a 'new direction' for the Suns and the only discernible direction the team went is down. BC's days are numbered... I doubt he'll last two years.

I happen to like D'Antoni. I know you think that some NAME coach would do a wildly better job, but I don't. Bringing along young players is one of the hardest coaching tasks and D'Antoni seems to be able to do that yet get them to play hard.

IMHO, Phil Jackson would be a diaster in Phoenix. Pat Riley has no patience with young players and George Karl wears out his welcome rather quickly (his insistence on trading Ray Allen for Gary Payton and an expiring contract was insane).

I think the unfortunate part of the previous two coaches was happenstance. I think Skiles would do pretty well with a veteran team, but not with a young team (as he is showing in Chicago). Frank Johnson should have been an interum coach but was too successful at first to dump.

We can expect that Steve Kerr will have some imput into the coaching selection, but I doubt he will push for a change.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

BC's days are numbered... I doubt he'll last two years.

Dont forget he is now an investor/part of the management team. I think he will be safe for a while

 

[Joe Mama]

George, not to nitpick, but I totally disagree with your assessment of Scott Skiles. He would be a horrible fit for a veteran NBA team. In fact I do not think he is a good fit for nearly any NBA teams. He should be an assistant coach or a college/high school coach.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

George, not to nitpick, but I totally disagree with your assessment of Scott Skiles. He would be a horrible fit for a veteran NBA team. In fact I do not think he is a good fit for nearly any NBA teams. He should be an assistant coach or a college/high school coach.

Joe Mama

Skiles got the Suns to win 55 games by playing tough defense. But once the Suns got rid of Cliff Robinson and Jason Kidd, the team completely fell apart (sort of) as they were playing 500 ball but looking bad.

I'm not sure he would be a really good coach for any team, but I think he is especially poorly suited to dealing with young players.

 

[Errntknght]

George >>I happen to like D'Antoni. I know you think that some NAME coach would do a wildly better job, but I don't. Bringing along young players is one of the hardest coaching tasks and D'Antoni seems to be able to do that yet get them to play hard.<<

I think there are coaches that could do a much better job with the Suns than D'Antoni is doing. Some of them are NAME coaches, like Phil Jackson, but all of them would have a good number of years coaching in the NBA. You rarely see me listing names of coaches I'd like to have for a very good reason: I don't accept media reports of other peoples' opinions at face value and I don't think W-L records tell enough. It takes me watching many games before I can tell for myself how good a coach is - first of all I have to figure out what he's got to work with in terms of players and then see what he does and doesn't have them doing. Basically, a guy has to coach the Suns before I've seen enough as I don't watch many other games.

>>IMHO, Phil Jackson would be a diaster in Phoenix.<<

If Phil Jackson were to take the job in Phoenix, I would expect him to have evaluated the collection of players he'd inherit in light of how they'd fit into his plans and got committments from management to help him make the changes in personnel he needed to succeed. There is ample evidence he knows how to do that. Already he's two steps ahead of D'Antoni, who doesn't know what it takes and has no committment from management.

You and I may think these players on not a good fit for the triangle but if PJ thought they were, I'd not argue with him. I remember when he went to LA how media pundits were saying the team doesn't fit the triangle; it's so different from the guys he succeeded with; it'll take him years to reshape the team. The little bit I knew from reading about the theory of the triangle made me wonder how a dominating center wouldn't be a good fit. I think the problem the rest of us have with the triangle is we've seen two incarnations of it and we don't see the Sun's guys fitting into those prototypes. But PJ and Winter understand the thing and can adapt it much more than we imagine. So while we're stuck looking backward and wondering how Marion will be Pippen or Amare will be Shaq, they're off figuring what aspects of the triangle to emphasize this time and what adjustments need to be made.

I'd be interested to know how you see the disaster unfolding. I guess you could be the third person in the world who understands the triangle - there have been rumors about such a person's existence - and can grasp just how it cannot be adapted to the teams talents. Failing that and with Phil taking the job voluntarily under the conditions you'd expect him to negotiate, what history lesson are the rest of us missing?

 

[elindholm]

Errrntknght, I have one observation to make. You say,

I don't accept media reports of other peoples' opinions at face value and I don't think W-L records tell enough.

I'm in the same boat with you there. But if, by your own admission, you don't understand the holy triangle, then why do you buy into all of the hocus-pocus about how unfathomably complicated it is?

I'm not saying it is or is not more complicated than other offensive schemes, but don't you think it's possible that Phil Jackson, always looking for ways to appear wiser than the next guy, exaggerates the triangle's intricacies -- and that writers for the media, 95% of them incapable of independent thought, shroud the triangle in mystique because it's a hell of a lot less work than figuring out anything about it?

Let's be realistic for a moment. We ain't talking general relativity. If the championship Bulls and Lakers teams won by using the triangle, didn't those players understand it adequately well? And if they didn't, but won anyway, then what difference does the offense make?

 

[Errntknght]

"But if, by your own admission, you don't understand the holy triangle, then why do you buy into all of the hocus-pocus about how unfathomably complicated it is?"

Is it hocus-pocus... several NBA teams, including the Suns, attempted to implement the triangle offense and failed. A cited reason in the Suns case and others was that the offense was too complicated. I suspect if one really understands it then it doesn't seem so complex.

By the way do you understand it well enough to explain to the rest of us why your characterization as 'hocus pocus' is accurate?

I can tell you why I believe it's possible that it is very intricate. What I've read and heard about it is that whenever the offense makes some move the possible countering moves by the defense are catalogued and for each of them there is a prescribed counter-counter move in response. These counter-counter moves are not just for a single player but are coordinated for several players. This is the well known 'read and react' principle - read the counter move and react with appropriate counter-counter move. This certainly looks to me as though it could become complex.

My understanding is further that while Winter knows everything that follows from a large set of base moves, he and PJ select only a few base moves to implement and the selection depends on what players are on the team. The players therefore do not have to understand the entire offense, just the portion the gurus have chosen to use. Jackson said when he went to the Lakers that because of the makeup of the team - presumeably because of Shaq's interior dominance - he was able to implement much less of the triangle than he did in Chi.

I imagine the reason others have much trouble installing the triangle is that they have to select the right set of base moves to use and they have no experience with any of them so they have a big problem right away knowing what to pick. Unsure of having made the right choice they can't convincingly tell the players that what they're teaching them will produce. Now the players aren't sure what they're learning is useful so they find it very hard to apply themselves diligently. When it comes to making minor adjustments they would be at sea with no experience so the uncertainly piles up... the result is quite predictible...

I've found in teaching mathematics when someone doubts the correctness of what they've done up to a certain point they can't apply all their attention to the next step, which raises their uncertainty for each step higher. At about four steps mental paralysis sets in - adding 1 plus 1 becomes difficult. (Becoming a mathematician is largely becoming used to proceeding as though you were certain when you have doubts.)

 

[elindholm]

(S)everal NBA teams, including the Suns, attempted to implement the triangle offense and failed. A cited reason in the Suns case and others was that the offense was too complicated.

But according to you, the Suns' coaches have all been incompetent and can't implement anything. So that hardly distinguishes the triangle.

By the way do you understand it well enough to explain to the rest of us why your characterization as 'hocus pocus' is accurate?

Statistical likelihood. Based on the media's mindlessly regurgitated "reports," we don't know anything about how complicated the offense is. So it is most logical to presume that it lies somewhere in the middle of the spectrum of complicated-ness, rather than at an extreme. Add to that the fact that Shaquille O'Neal, not exactly the brightest bulb in the chandelier, seems to understand it adequately well, and the evidence points to the offense being rather less complicated than reputed.

My understanding is further that while Winter knows everything that follows from a large set of base moves, he and PJ select only a few base moves to implement and the selection depends on what players are on the team.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. The triangle offense, then, is basically a catalog of possible thrust and parry combinations, rather like a manual of chess openings. Is it that Winter is one of the few who understands it, or is it that he's one of the few who has it more or less memorized?

I imagine the reason others have much trouble installing the triangle is that they have to select the right set of base moves to use and they have no experience with any of them so they have a big problem right away knowing what to pick.

In other words, the difficulty is trying to find an offense (or a version of it) that fits the players, rather than players to fit a "system"? That sounds about right. I've always wondered why more coaches don't try to design their offenses around the talent they have, instead of the other way around.

(Becoming a mathematician is largely becoming used to proceeding as though you were certain when you have doubts.)

Heh! That could be said for a lot of professions.

 

[minercon]

Baloney and more baloney....Bryan has now solidified himself as GM and will only leave when he wants to. He now owns part of the dang team.....Phil Jackson will stay in Laker land...he is married to the owner's daughter and why would Houston get rid of their coach????? Why.. Van Gundy is great!!!!!

 

[George O'Brien]

I don't pretend to understand the Triangle. In Chicago it helped MJ become even more effective than he was before (although he was unstoppable before Phil came along). In LA, Kobe feels terribly constrained by it and Gary Payton has expressed his dissatisfaction.

One thing I keep wondering is whether the Triangle is as effective now that the old illegal defense rules have been eliminated. There were a lot of reasons why the Lakers have not been as dominant since the change, but it makes you wonder.

 

[F-Dog]

My understanding is that Phil Jackson has been phasing out the triangle for a long time now, and this year he pretty much abandoned it entirely.

Part of the problem IMO is that experienced defensive teams had started to jump a lot of the options, and the offense was becoming less efficient--players were starting to run around with their heads down on offense, and it was taking longer and longer to find a good shot.

If the Lakers don't get their offense set up very early in the shot clock, the triangle is no longer as effective as simpler offensive sets.