You guys owe the Lakers some thanks

[D-Dogg]

Kobe is so out of sinc passing that he looked uncomfortable passing in the all star game. As for being underrated, yes its obvious that the other all stars thought he was a poor passer as well, they didnt move without the ball. He didnt make one good pass, and he had alot of talent around him. Passing is about location and timing, and Kobe just couldnt bring himself to pass at the right time. Also when you are such a ballhog, other players just dont want to move around when youre dominating the ball.

When shaq was with the lakers the ball distrubution went through other players, now kobe handles the ball almost all the time.

Oh boy. Here we go. At least you proved to me you don't know thing one about Kobe or the Lakers.

Let's start with the AS game...Kobe took 11 shots. He had 7 rebounds and 8 assists. Yes, 8 was also the leading assist total. Bad, bad, bad choice of games to highlight.

Now, let's talk about the Shaq years. Kobe was the distributor in the triangle then, a position Lamar now has. It was a major issue for the team, as Kobe spent so much energy facilitating the offense, and not playing on the wing. There are quotes out there about Kobe and Lamar and how Kobe understands how difficult the transition is for Lamar to faciliate this tri offense.

This year Kobe is second on the team in assists. Last year he led the team in assists with 6 a game. Prior to that he was second on the team, just behind Payton. And he led the team in assists each season prior to that, including the championship years) going back until the 1998-99 season when he was third on the team. Poor passers don't do that.

I appreciate your attempt to dissect a team and player you barely watch, but again I see an opinion formed not by observation, but by media coverage.

 

[Yuma]

Again, I must add:

Kobe better score 80+ a game, because 50+ against us ain't getting the job done!

 

[jibikao]

Actually Odom is finally starting to come around and get the triangle offense. That's the problem, more than anything else. It's a hard offense to learn. Odom is playing very well this last month, and Kwame is playing much better now too. Odom is living up to his potential, and is starting to be consistent. Kwame is a defensive presence, and is slowly coming around on the offensive end. The Lakers are simply missing something that the Suns have in bunches, shooters. Guys who can knock down a big shot. They don't have any of them (other than Kobe).

BTW, don't disparage the Lakers so much. If there IS a problem, it's a combination of running the triangle offense and the very young age of the team. The average age of this team is 25, and they are running one of the most complicated offensive schemes in basketball. A few weeks ago, they were 16-17 in games decided by six points or less, a sure sign of their youth and inexperience. Yet they are the 9th best offensive and 9th best defensive team in the league. Not too shabby for a team that starts an undrafted streetballer at PG, the guy Jordan tried to ruin at C, and a 6'10" PF whose only skill is hitting completely open three point shots from time to time.

I've seen Lamar before when he was in Heat. He always gave Dirk some difficulities with his long arms. Lamar is pretty versatile but he looks so out of focus out there. I don't know how many times Marion has done ally-hoop against him. He doesn't pay much attention to what's going on. Not saying his defense is bad but he can be out of focus easily.

Well, you guys had one of the best in Fisher. He had hit some serious big shots.

Shooters need to shoot to be comfortable with their shots. Who would have thought that Bell can turn into a shooter and even got invited for 3pt contest? That's something Suns is best at. We train people to be offense machines and if they can't, they sit.

I am not a Kobe hater just so you know. I am neutral.

 

[SirStefan32]

Wrong.

Kobe is a great individual player but not a team player. And you cannot win entire series by yourself. May be a game or two, but not a series.

Are you serious? Please tell me you are kidding.
Now I don't think there is a chance in hell that LA can beat Phoenix in a seven game series, but to say that Kobe is selfish ("not a team player") is just beyond idiocy.

How many rings does Kobe have?

 

[SirStefan32]

Oh boy. Here we go. At least you proved to me you don't know thing one about Kobe or the Lakers.

Let's start with the AS game...Kobe took 11 shots. He had 7 rebounds and 8 assists. Yes, 8 was also the leading assist total. Bad, bad, bad choice of games to highlight.

Now, let's talk about the Shaq years. Kobe was the distributor in the triangle then, a position Lamar now has. It was a major issue for the team, as Kobe spent so much energy facilitating the offense, and not playing on the wing. There are quotes out there about Kobe and Lamar and how Kobe understands how difficult the transition is for Lamar to faciliate this tri offense.

This year Kobe is second on the team in assists. Last year he led the team in assists with 6 a game. Prior to that he was second on the team, just behind Payton. And he led the team in assists each season prior to that, including the championship years) going back until the 1998-99 season when he was third on the team. Poor passers don't do that.

I appreciate your attempt to dissect a team and player you barely watch, but again I see an opinion formed not by observation, but by media coverage.

Might as well talk to a brick wall. Some people just don't like Kobe, and no facts are going to change their mind.

 

[nowagimp]

Oh boy. Here we go. At least you proved to me you don't know thing one about Kobe or the Lakers.

Let's start with the AS game...Kobe took 11 shots. He had 7 rebounds and 8 assists. Yes, 8 was also the leading assist total. Bad, bad, bad choice of games to highlight.

Now, let's talk about the Shaq years. Kobe was the distributor in the triangle then, a position Lamar now has. It was a major issue for the team, as Kobe spent so much energy facilitating the offense, and not playing on the wing. There are quotes out there about Kobe and Lamar and how Kobe understands how difficult the transition is for Lamar to faciliate this tri offense.

This year Kobe is second on the team in assists. Last year he led the team in assists with 6 a game. Prior to that he was second on the team, just behind Payton. And he led the team in assists each season prior to that, including the championship years) going back until the 1998-99 season when he was third on the team. Poor passers don't do that.

I appreciate your attempt to dissect a team and player you barely watch, but again I see an opinion formed not by observation, but by media coverage.

All star game revisited: passing the ball to KG who has had his small forward defender pinned in the low post for 3-4 seconds is hardly a difficult pass, anyone could make it. I'm talking about passing the ball in a way that demonstrates court vision, like an unexpected pass even. OK he can see in the 2 man game when he passes to a "shaq" in the low block. Not a big deal, there. All basketball fans know when they see a good dish, one that creates a shot. KG, Brand et al created their own shots by getting rediculous positioning on poor defense.

Shaq and Lakers: Shaq in his prime was impossible to defend, Kobe distributing the ball to him did not create the shot. Most of the shots the championship lakers had were created by the mere presence of shaq on the court.

6 assists a game: What 1 assist for every 6 shots taken? I remember Marbury getting 8 assists a game, but shooting the ball himself during critical times in the game, like crunch time. He was selfish, and Amare's development was ******** by his generally poorly timed passes(eg like 2-3 seconds after a player needed the ball to make a move). Kobe's assists were quite similar, that he'll pass the ball for a while and then shut down, even back in the championship days. This was why he was at odds with Phil Jackson when the lakers broke up. Even Shaq(and other lakers) complained about Kobe's tendency to keep the rock when others were open or in position to score.

I saw Magic, I saw Michael, I saw Larry Bird, these guys made the passes that created shots for other players that won games, even championships. Kobe does some of that, but, its on a lower level, more like Karl Malone. The problem is that the bar is high, and the words "great passer" fit with Magic, Jordan and Bird, but not with Kobe.

 

[D-Dogg]

Actually, AS game Kobe went out with the idea in mind of getting Tmac the MVP award...but it appears you didn't watch that game judging by your comments.

Kobe isn't a PG like Marbury...Kobe is a scoring guard, and the number one option on his team (and previously the number 2). Apples and oranges, especially since Kobe is the who is supposed to take crunch time shots. And over his career, Jordan averaged just .8 assists per game than Kobe. Less than one assist per game. The way you talk it up, Jordan averaged 10 a game and Kobe 2.

I saw Magic, I saw Michael, I saw Larry Bird, these guys made the passes that created shots for other players that won games, even championships. Kobe does some of that, but, its on a lower level, more like Karl Malone. The problem is that the bar is high, and the words "great passer" fit with Magic, Jordan and Bird, but not with Kobe.

I saw them all too, Magic was and is my favorite player of all time. I think it's funny you've gone from Kobe is a poor passer to he's no Magic Johnson. Ya think? Magic and Stockton are two of the best passers of all time. I said Kobe was underrated, was a very good passer and your argument against that is that he's no Magic Johnson? First you are wrong about him being a poor passer, so you try to create some new way to bash him and then throw in some subjective criteria such as making passes that win games, even championships as your new attempt to discredit the guy (while I guess forgetting the lob to Shaq that started the original championship run, passes to Horry in the corner for gamewinners, and countless other times Kobe gave up the rock to good shooters to win games).

Sorry you can't put Kobe in a little box and make him fit what you want him to. I watch 95% of Laker games each year....if you had touched on any of Kobe's actual faults, which he has, then I would have commended you for it. But you are simply spitting out garbage that people like Bill Simmons and the ilk say in the media...things that aren't accurate.

If you want to discuss Kobe, Shaq or the Lakers in the future read Roland Lazenby's books The Show and Mad Game. Maybe then you'll understand the origin of the Shaq/Kobe/Phil issues which you tried to discuss in your post. I'm guessing you are a sheep who thinks Kobe ran Shaq out of town, too. There's a whole lot more to the Lakers than what ESPN writes.

 

[golfcardfan]

Agree nowagimp Kobe is NOT a great passer he is a great scoring player but would not want him on the suns. He is with out a doubt a selfish player, he has to be somewhat but he always has been not just on the team he has now. D-Dogg is like any fan judgement clouded by his love for the lakers which is understandable. Kobe while a great individual player is just that and individual player not a good team player period.

 

[elindholm]

D-Dogg is like any fan judgement clouded by his love for the lakers which is understandable.

LOL, clue meter reading zero. You don't suppose your own judgment might be just a wee bit clouded for the same reason?

 

[D-Dogg]

Agree nowagimp Kobe is NOT a great passer

He didn't say he wasn't a great passer, he said he was a poor passer. Big difference. He only changed to the "not a great passer" once I showed him that his contention was wrong.

And btw, I didn't even say he was a great passer, I said he is a underrated passer and very good at it.

 

[D-Dogg]

D-Dogg is like any fan judgement clouded by his love for the lakers which is understandable. Kobe while a great individual player is just that and individual player not a good team player period.

My judgement is gleaned over watching thousands of Laker games in my lifetime. While yes, I love the Lakers and that will skew my viewpoint, I also have a ton of observation of the team and its players that most fans of other teams do not have. I always find it humorous that every fan of every other team is also an expert on Kobe Bryant. I may profess to be an expert on the Lakers and their players/coaches/ownership, but I sure don't try to be for other teams, no matter what ESPN tells me about them.

 

[ShuHanGuanYu]

Too many people judge Kobe by these last two seasons and say he cannot pass or is a bad teammate. How can we say this when he basically has no team? Lamar is an enigma. He's always had the tools to do so but has never turned out to be a great scorer, especially in a triangle offense. With their second best player not a scorer, Kobe has no choice but to use the most efficient (or even the -only- efficient) outlet in the Lakers offense, himself. What help does this guy have? Seriously, the media is getting excited about Kwame "breaking out" because he's averaged 11 and 7 or so in the last month. WOW. That should tell you of their plight. Chris Mihm is hurt, and when on the floor has been very inconsistent. Sasha is a shooter who can't shoot consistently, if at all. Smush is talented young guy but his shot is prone to leave him as well. Devean George shows up once every five or six games. Luke tries. Cook can shoot but not play defense or rebound.

My point? The guy has a terrible team! If you've watched the Lakers you've seen what happens when these guys try to take shots. It's bad. Kobe can't make them put the ball in the hoop. He gets them wide open shots but they can't finish them. I don't understand how you people see it going down if Kobe took less shots. That means the rest of the team (none of which other than perhaps Smush can create their own shot efficiently - Lamar can, but usually passes) takes forced shots that they have no business taking. If Kobe had a good supporting cast that was worthy of trusting, you'd see him taking less shots and drifting down to the 28-30ppg and 6-8apg range. On the rare night that his teammates are shooting well, he does a great job utilizing them. But that happens on rare occasion, and even less is that highlighted by the media.

Was T-Mac a ballhog when he averaged 30+ in Orlando? Hell yes. It was their only option because their team was terrible. Same case.

 

[D-Dogg]

Very nice post.

 

[nowagimp]

He didn't say he wasn't a great passer, he said he was a poor passer. Big difference. He only changed to the "not a great passer" once I showed him that his contention was wrong.

And btw, I didn't even say he was a great passer, I said he is a underrated passer and very good at it.

Kobe is a disappointment to anyone including myself who sees he has the talent, but chooses not to develop it. Perhaps I am hard on Kobe, but passing and decision making is what separates him from Jordan or Bird or Magic in the ability to control games(only magic was a point guard). Those guys all made the players around them better, its hard to say that about Kobe. AI is also a great player, but like Kobe, other players stand around and watch him dominate the ball. I saw the all star game, it was a pathetic display of why the US all stars cant win against Manu's minions of medicrioty, and "me first" players like Kobe, who dominate the ball. Team ball beats hog ball almost every time. If you want to run your offense through a player, he needs to be a very good passer to win, If the guy is on the wing, he doesnt need to be as good. Kobe is a better wing player than playmaker. OK lets requalify: Kobe is a poor passer for a playmaker, OK? If he wasnt being used as the playmaker, maybe he would be a pretty good passer.

 

[elindholm]

Kobe is a better wing player than playmaker.

Where's that Master of the Obvious picture when you need it?

Stoudemire is a better post threat than playmaker. Does that make him "selfish" too?

 

[D-Dogg]

You obviously didn't see the all star game if you thought Kobe dominated anything. Two players dominated the ball, LeBron and Tmac. Everyone else stood and watched. Perhaps you have Kobe confused with one of those two?

I guess we'll have to wait for the Olympics for you to be completely proven wrong. Fine, I'll enjoy the wait.

 

[ShuHanGuanYu]

Kobe is a disappointment to anyone including myself who sees he has the talent, but chooses not to develop it. Perhaps I am hard on Kobe, but passing and decision making is what separates him from Jordan or Bird or Magic in the ability to control games(only magic was a point guard). Those guys all made the players around them better, its hard to say that about Kobe. AI is also a great player, but like Kobe, other players stand around and watch him dominate the ball. I saw the all star game, it was a pathetic display of why the US all stars cant win against Manu's minions of medicrioty, and "me first" players like Kobe, who dominate the ball. Team ball beats hog ball almost every time. If you want to run your offense through a player, he needs to be a very good passer to win, If the guy is on the wing, he doesnt need to be as good. Kobe is a better wing player than playmaker. OK lets requalify: Kobe is a poor passer for a playmaker, OK? If he wasnt being used as the playmaker, maybe he would be a pretty good passer.

Jordan and Magic would not succeed if surrounded by the players the Lakers have right now. Period. Need I remind you that each of these players you mentioned were surrounded by other awesome players?

Jordan's teammates over the years:

Pippen - One of the best second fiddles in a long time. Amazing defender, good at nearly everything else. Lamar Odom cannot defend very well and seems to lackadaisically drift out of games.

Rodman - Best rebounder ever, great defender. Lakers have...Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm? Hmm.

Horace Grant - Good defender, great rebounder, great at running the floor, good passer for a big man. Solid vet. Laker have...hmm, noone that fits this role. Interesting.

Toni Kukoc - Great shooter, amazing passer for a big man. Great sixth man. Most people don't even recognize the names of the people that the Lakers bring off the bench.

Ron Harper, Randy Brown - Harper was the Bruce Bowen of the early 90's, but can handle the ball. Brown was a lockdown defender who played spottingly off the bench. The Lakers have noone on their roster (save Kobe) who can defend even close to this level.

BJ Armstrong, Craig Hodges, John Paxson, Steve Kerr - Lights out shooters. Name me one lights out shooter on the Lakers, preferably without laughing.

Bill Cartwright, Stacey King, Scott Williams, Will Purdue, Luc Longley, Corey Blount - All servicable big men who battle on the inside and can at least hold their ground on the inside defensively. Brian Cook and...Slava (most of the year, now they don't even have him)! Beautiful.


It's easy to say Jordan made these guys better. In reality, they had great -teams-, and that led to the success of many. Lakers problems are mostly defensive, but if Kobe had the role players that Jordan had in his day they would be a contender and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Kobe is a disappointment to anyone including myself who sees he has the talent, but chooses not to develop it. Perhaps I am hard on Kobe, but passing and decision making is what separates him from Jordan or Bird or Magic in the ability to control games(only magic was a point guard). Those guys all made the players around them better, its hard to say that about Kobe. AI is also a great player, but like Kobe, other players stand around and watch him dominate the ball. I saw the all star game, it was a pathetic display of why the US all stars cant win against Manu's minions of medicrioty, and "me first" players like Kobe, who dominate the ball. Team ball beats hog ball almost every time. If you want to run your offense through a player, he needs to be a very good passer to win, If the guy is on the wing, he doesnt need to be as good. Kobe is a better wing player than playmaker. OK lets requalify: Kobe is a poor passer for a playmaker, OK? If he wasnt being used as the playmaker, maybe he would be a pretty good passer.

Then I assume that you think that Jerry Colangelo is wrong in having him as the focal point of the upcoming USA team?

I am going on the record saying that I trust Jerry's judgement.

 

[LakeShowMan]

No offense nowagimp, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Kobe Bryant was the main 'facilitator' on 3 championship teams. He ran the entire offense in the championship years, and was the best passer on the team. He also, got Shaq more layups and dunks then any guy he has played with.

I understand that Kobe is an easy target, and that people who don't like the Lakers love to talk about all the things that Kobe is not, but you are off base and wrong on this one.

 

[jibikao]

LakeShowMan, only a SLIGHTLY annoying Lakers fan WTF??

There are so many closet Kobe fans now on this board?

 

[ShuHanGuanYu]

Closet Lakers fans? I'm not a Kobe fan, it just doesn't take a genius in my eyes to see that Kobe doesn't have much to work with on that team of his. And I think those that fault him for ballhogging or that he "chooses not to develop his talent" need to do more objective research as to why that offense works the way it does.

 

[LakeShowMan]

LakeShowMan, only a SLIGHTLY annoying Lakers fan WTF??

There are so many closet Kobe fans now on this board?

Dude, what the hell are you talking about? I have been a Laker fan my entire life, and I am 30 years old. The reason that I am a Laker fan, is because of my Dad. So, it is in my blood.

My sig is a joke, because I have been coming to this board since the rivals.com days, just like I have been going to LakersGround since then. The reason I have that sig, is because guys like Chap and Joe Mama and all the others that have been on here since then, always told me that I am OK for a Laker fan.

Next time, you might want to know what the hell you are talking about before you post. I can guaran-damn-tee you that you can't find a bigger Laker fan in the world then me. Hell, my dog's name is Cooper, but I guess I named him that because I am a closet Kobe fan.

 

[D-Dogg]

Hell, my dog's name is Cooper, .

SWEET!!!! Do you put him in high socks too?

 

[abomb]

SWEET!!!! Do you put him in high socks too?

LOL. That is some visual.

A-Bomb

 

[LakeShowMan]

SWEET!!!! Do you put him in high socks too?

I haven't yet. But I may need to pull that out for the playoffs. He does wear his Laker collar during every game though.