You guys owe the Lakers some thanks

fordronken

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LakeShowMan said:
We'll see.

Let me just clarify though. I don't see us beating you guys in a 7 game series, but I really don't think it will be the cake walk that many of you seem to believe. You guys are definetly the favorites, but we really have been a different team of late.

You guys know though, that I'll be here regardless. I will definitely admit that I was wrong, if it turns out that I am.

For an upset to occur-- and I think we can all agree that the Suns losing in the first round would be an upset-- it comes down to match ups. Simply put, the Lakers don't have the fire power to keep up with a Suns team for a seven game series, but the Kings do. I still think the Suns would win both series, but I give a significantly higher chance to the Kings than I do the Lakers.
 

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D-Dogg said:
one in which the Lakers had lost to the Kings in OT too. The game that Lamar lost for us...god I was so mad.

Man, I dont know if you are ever going to forget that game. :) Seriously, I dont think you took the Finals loss to Detroit that hard. ;)

A-Bomb
 

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LakeShowMan said:
No offense nowagimp, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Kobe Bryant was the main 'facilitator' on 3 championship teams. He ran the entire offense in the championship years, and was the best passer on the team. He also, got Shaq more layups and dunks then any guy he has played with.

I understand that Kobe is an easy target, and that people who don't like the Lakers love to talk about all the things that Kobe is not, but you are off base and wrong on this one.

No offense taken, but I suggest that a more objective evaluation of Kobe be used instead of "win championships on the back of Shaq" statistic or "he got Shaq alot of dunks". Shaq got his own dunks much of the time, and led the league in dunks playing for the heat, after he left the lakers, with that modern day "MAGIC" Damon Jones at the point. Passing skills can be measured in the assist to turnover ratio. Bad passes get picked off, and untimely passes often do not end in a basket. A good assist to turnover ratio is required for players who run their teams offense, if they expect to win. Can we agree to that even? If not, just dont read on, it will be wasted on the blind. Kobe runs the Laker offense, so he is actually functioning like MJ did, like a PG, at least on offense.

Well you'd better check your stats, Kobe is tied for the worst asst/TO ratio (1.43 asst/turnover) of the top 50 assist players in the NBA this year. For sure, he has the worst asst/TO ratio of any player who runs his teams offense. In fact, 8 players on the suns alone have better asst/turnover ratios than Kobe. But lets just look at his career. Just from looking at his career stats, only once did Kobe have a 2:1 ratio in his CAREER, and it was just over 2. Pretty poor for a guy who runs an offense. His career average in asst/TO is 1.56. You'd expect him to have an easier time passing as its mostly unexptected by the defense. That is why he is not a good player to run a teams offense. Maybe it just shows how clever Phil Jackson is, to overcome such a flaw. Or maybe it shows how great a center shaq was.

This year Kobe scored 35ppg shooting 45% FGs(his career average FG% is 45%, so its not a fluke), HE'S NO MJ, thats for sure. As a third year player, on a bad Bulls team, Jordan scored 37.1ppg on 48% FG, and as a fourth year player on that same team, he shot 53.5% while scoring 35.1ppg. So much for the bad teammates excuse.

Now the question is why is Kobe's career FG % so low, considering all the championships? Shaq shot 58 to 60%, which makes up for Kobe's low FG% during the championship years. His low FG% plus his poor asst/turnover ratio seems to suggest that he either shoots when he shouldnt be shooting(bad decision maker) or that he is a poor passer for a ball distributor. Probably a little of each, which is what I said to start the discussion.
 
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LakeShowMan

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nowagimp said:
No offense taken, but I suggest that a more objective evaluation of Kobe be used instead of "win championships on the back of Shaq" statistic or "he got Shaq alot of dunks". Shaq got his own dunks much of the time, and led the league in dunks playing for the heat, after he left the lakers, with that modern day "MAGIC" Damon Jones at the point. Passing skills can be measured in the assist to turnover ratio. Bad passes get picked off, and untimely passes often do not end in a basket. A good assist to turnover ratio is required for players who run their teams offense, if they expect to win. Can we agree to that even? If not, just dont read on, it will be wasted on the blind. Kobe runs the Laker offense, so he is actually functioning like MJ did, like a PG, at least on offense.

Well you'd better check your stats, Kobe is tied for the worst asst/TO ratio (1.43 asst/turnover) of the top 50 assist players in the NBA this year. For sure, he has the worst asst/TO ratio of any player who runs his teams offense. In fact, 8 players on the suns alone have better asst/turnover ratios than Kobe. But lets just look at his career. Just from looking at his career stats, only once did Kobe have a 2:1 ratio in his CAREER, and it was just over 2. Pretty poor for a guy who runs an offense. His career average in asst/TO is 1.56. You'd expoect him to have an easier time passing as its mostly unexptected by the defense. That is why he is not a good player to run a teams offense. Maybe it just shows how clever Phil Jackson is, to overcome such a flaw. Or maybe it shows how great a center shaq was.

This year Kobe scored 35ppg shooting 45% FGs(his career average FG% is 45%, so its not a fluke), HE'S NO MJ, thats for sure. As a third year player, on a bad Bulls team, Jordan scored 37.1ppg on 48% FG, and as a fourth year player on that same team, he shot 53.5% while scoring 35.1ppg. So much for the bad teammates excuse.

Now the question is why is Kobe's career FG % so low, considering all the championships? Shaq shot 58 to 60%, which makes up for Kobe's low FG% during the championship years. His low FG% plus his poor asst/turnover ratio seems to suggest that he either shoots when he shouldnt be shooting(bad decision maker) or that he is a poor passer for a ball distributor. Probably a little of each, which is what I said to start the discussion.

First off all, I think you are mixing arguements, when you start talking about shooting percentage, when the deabte is about being a quality passer. However, as I don't want to totally ignore the point, I would hope that you understand that Kobe seasons lately are hard to compare to those of Michael Jordan years because with the new zone rules in effect, it is signifcantly harder to shoot a higher percentage at the wing position. Even with that said, I never said Kobe is 'as good' as Michael. Frankly, he has not proven that yet. More importantly, the arguement that you are trying to back, is that Kobe is not even a good passer.

Second, I didn't mention that Kobe got Shaq a lot of dunks as proof or as the reason that Kobe is a good passer. It was actually an added validation onto the role he played in the championship years, as well as to quell the arguement that Kobe didn't play well with Shaq. I probably should have said he created a lot more easy scoring opportunities for him then other teammates, so I am sorry if I wasn't more clear.

Third, Kobe has a VASTLY different role in the offense this year, then he did during the championship years. As I mentioned before, during the championship years, Kobe was the facilitator of the offense. This year, he is playing the wing position, which is more of an attacker and a scorer. Lamar Odom, has taken the position of the facilitator. The facilitator is the position that Pippen played, if you need a point of reference to the Bulls team. Phil and Tex, have always given Kobe a high amount of credit for how well the Laker offense used to run during that time. You don't win the vast majority of playoff series without a great half court offense, and to take it a step further, it is almost impossible to have a good half court offense that is 'run'/facilitated by a poor passer. Now I understand that YOU believe that the offense was only profecient or good because of Shaq, and the attention that he recieved, but that is just faulty. I have a hard time believing that you watched with any sense of attention to the championship years. Especially, the series' against the Spurs, where Kobe absolutely destroyed that team on the offensive end with his scoring and his passing. Gregg Popovich and Shaq both said he was the best player in the world after those series, and gave him the credit for beating those teams.

Lastly, you obviously believe that assist to turnover ratio is the best judge of whether someone is a good passer. I myself, feel that it is a good statistic, but can't be the end all and be all. Unlike baseball, basketball value is hard to breakdown, by taking a strictly numbers approach. Numbers themselves can be a very good snapshot on a players value, but actually watching the way people play gives us a much better idea as to the value/talent of a player. You do realize also that an assist has 2 parts to it correct? You don't just get an assist because you make a great pass or put a teammate in a very advantageous position to convert on a FG? The fact is, the teammate then has to convert on the opportunity, which I think would be very hard to convince anyone that has watched the Lakers on the converting prowess of the majority of Kobe's teammates this year. Also, I think you must take into account the fact that for much of the season the team was learning a completely new offense, which no one other then Kobe and Luke Walton could even be considered proficient in, which I hope you would agree can lead to a skewed proficency in assist to TO. Fact is, there are many more factors that going into a statistic than just the raw numbers, or even the analysis of those statistics.

Is Kobe a great passer on the level of Stockton, or Magic, or Nash? No. However, to call him a poor or even below average is just wrong, especially if the thought behind it is strictly on assits vs. turnovers , and not actually watching the game. Kobe has a very good court awareness, and has been lauded by people for it with much higher basketball IQs then you and I have.
 

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LakeShowMan said:
First off all, I think you are mixing arguements, when you start talking about shooting percentage, when the deabte is about being a quality passer. However, as I don't want to totally ignore the point, I would hope that you understand that Kobe seasons lately are hard to compare to those of Michael Jordan years because with the new zone rules in effect, it is signifcantly harder to shoot a higher percentage at the wing position. Even with that said, I never said Kobe is 'as good' as Michael. Frankly, he has not proven that yet. More importantly, the arguement that you are trying to back, is that Kobe is not even a good passer.

Second, I didn't mention that Kobe got Shaq a lot of dunks as proof or as the reason that Kobe is a good passer. It was actually an added validation onto the role he played in the championship years, as well as to quell the arguement that Kobe didn't play well with Shaq. I probably should have said he created a lot more easy scoring opportunities for him then other teammates, so I am sorry if I wasn't more clear.

Third, Kobe has a VASTLY different role in the offense this year, then he did during the championship years. As I mentioned before, during the championship years, Kobe was the facilitator of the offense. This year, he is playing the wing position, which is more of an attacker and a scorer. Lamar Odom, has taken the position of the facilitator. The facilitator is the position that Pippen played, if you need a point of reference to the Bulls team. Phil and Tex, have always given Kobe a high amount of credit for how well the Laker offense used to run during that time. You don't win the vast majority of playoff series without a great half court offense, and to take it a step further, it is almost impossible to have a good half court offense that is 'run'/facilitated by a poor passer. Now I understand that YOU believe that the offense was only profecient or good because of Shaq, and the attention that he recieved, but that is just faulty. I have a hard time believing that you watched with any sense of attention to the championship years. Especially, the series' against the Spurs, where Kobe absolutely destroyed that team on the offensive end with his scoring and his passing. Gregg Popovich and Shaq both said he was the best player in the world after those series, and gave him the credit for beating those teams.

Lastly, you obviously believe that assist to turnover ratio is the best judge of whether someone is a good passer. I myself, feel that it is a good statistic, but can't be the end all and be all. Unlike baseball, basketball value is hard to breakdown, by taking a strictly numbers approach. Numbers themselves can be a very good snapshot on a players value, but actually watching the way people play gives us a much better idea as to the value/talent of a player. You do realize also that an assist has 2 parts to it correct? You don't just get an assist because you make a great pass or put a teammate in a very advantageous position to convert on a FG? The fact is, the teammate then has to convert on the opportunity, which I think would be very hard to convince anyone that has watched the Lakers on the converting prowess of the majority of Kobe's teammates this year. Also, I think you must take into account the fact that for much of the season the team was learning a completely new offense, which no one other then Kobe and Luke Walton could even be considered proficient in, which I hope you would agree can lead to a skewed proficency in assist to TO. Fact is, there are many more factors that going into a statistic than just the raw numbers, or even the analysis of those statistics.

Is Kobe a great passer on the level of Stockton, or Magic, or Nash? No. However, to call him a poor or even below average is just wrong, especially if the thought behind it is strictly on assits vs. turnovers , and not actually watching the game. Kobe has a very good court awareness, and has been lauded by people for it with much higher basketball IQs then you and I have.

Just trying to add some objectivity to a discussion which has had little objectivity. Kobe should be able to pass the ball to open teammates since he is almost always doubled. I just cant believe that open NBA players on any team cant make 45% FGs. The FG% suggest that Kobe is shooting too much, especially when Lamar Odom shoots 49% FG. When you can hold the other team to 45% its considered good defense. And remember these are career numbers 45% and 1.56 asst/turnover, not just this year. Many of those years the zone rules were not in effect, and Kobe's numbers were the same. He also had some great supporting teammates on those championship era teams, so bad teammates do not explain the career stats which have NOT improved. Even in the championship years, Kobe had a low FG% and asst/turnover. They are linked, and are not 2 separate discussions, because if you cant make a high percentage it suggests forced shots, that should not have been taken(bad shot selection). Passing, shot selection and asst/turnover are all linked. When other teammates are shooting better, it suggests they should get the ball more often(three laker starters have better FG% than Kobe, smush has the same FG%).

As far a Shaq, I dont think anyone outside of LA really thought that Kobe was the best player on the Lakers during the championship years. Shaq shot 60%, which is as good as it gets in the NBA. Most observers were saying that shaq was not only the best player on the lakers, but the best in the whole NBA during that time period. He shot 60% while scoring alot of points and being the focus of the defense. I was not a shaq fan, but I did respect his game(he had a triple double last night with Wade out). I agree with the lakers choice of choosing Kobe over shaq as the Diesel has alot of miles and Kobe will be around for a while. I'm just saying that Kobe's stats(ASST/TO, FG%) have been consistent regardless of who was on his team.
 

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I appreciate the thoughtful, informed discussion, but unfortunately you're both wrong. The best player on the Lakers championship teams was Robert Horry. This is proven by the fact that he has the most rings.

Thank you.
 

LakeShowMan

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elindholm said:
I appreciate the thoughtful, informed discussion, but unfortunately you're both wrong. The best player on the Lakers championship teams was Robert Horry. This is proven by the fact that he has the most rings.

Thank you.

You could have saved us so much bandwith if you would have told us that a couple days ago. Sheesh.


To nowagimp:

There is no way either of us are going to agree on this. You seem to be basing your arguement on statistics and what they tell you. I am basing it on watch (although, admitedly with a biased eye) pretty much every game that Kobe has played since the invention of the NBA League Pass.

I value what my eyes tell me over what someone can gain by breaking down statistics. So, we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
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elindholm said:
I appreciate the thoughtful, informed discussion, but unfortunately you're both wrong. The best player on the Lakers championship teams was Robert Horry. This is proven by the fact that he has the most rings.

Thank you.

Big Shot Bob is a freaking stud. Hands down, he is one of my favorite role players of all time. Hell, "The Shot" alone cemented him in Lakers lore forever.

I love that guy, and have a hard time rooting for him to miss when we play the Spurs.
 
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D-Dogg

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boisesuns said:
Can we put this in the Lakers thread?

I vote no, because we will be playing you guys in the playoffs, barring any weird stuff like the Clips dying in the stretch and us getting the 6 spot, or us dying in the stretch against a weak schedule and finishing 8th.

Hell, this will probably become THE playoff first round thread. And besides, it's the most active of Suns board threads you have going. That's the Lakers for you...

And you STILL have to thank the Lakers for locking the division up for you! ;)
 

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D-Dogg said:
I vote no, because we will be playing you guys in the playoffs, barring any weird stuff like the Clips dying in the stretch and us getting the 6 spot, or us dying in the stretch against a weak schedule and finishing 8th.

Hell, this will probably become THE playoff first round thread. And besides, it's the most active of Suns board threads you have going. That's the Lakers for you...

And you STILL have to thank the Lakers for locking the division up for you! ;)

This thread should be locked simply because of this post. ;)
 

justAndy

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all i know is: Suns must lose to the Lakers on Sunday.
We want them in the playoffs.
Hell - let's lose out and get some of the scrubs some minutes.
 

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Hell no, don't give the Lakers an inch. We might wind up facing the Kings regardless of the outcome of that game and we don't want our guys or the Kings thinking that we are trying to avoid them. In addition to that it might get the guys thinking the Lakers are a pushover in the playoffs. Now if we go all out and the Lakers beat us, fine... that will get out guys thinking they've got to get geared up for a tough series, which I expect it to be. Historically, the Lakers have owned us in the playoffs - usually they were the better team but with all those chances at upsetting them we never did it. They came within an eyelash of beating us when we were #1 against #8, and that was our only playoff victory over them, IIRC.

Sure, I prefer facing the Lakers this year but mainly because we have a good chance of doubling the number of times we've knocked them out of the playoffs.
 

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elindholm said:
I appreciate the thoughtful, informed discussion, but unfortunately you're both wrong. The best player on the Lakers championship teams was Robert Horry. This is proven by the fact that he has the most rings.

Thank you.

Once again, a different point of view from Eindholm, who has found the secret to NBA player evaluation. Thats it, count the rings. And Steve Kerr was a better player than Tim Duncan or Steve Nash, cause he has more rings!
 

elindholm

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Once again, a different point of view from Eindholm, who has found the secret to NBA player evaluation. Thats it, count the rings.

Sarcasm not detected? I'm an outspoken opponent of the count-the-rings rubric. I thought it was obvious that I was joking.
 

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elindholm said:
Once again, a different point of view from Eindholm, who has found the secret to NBA player evaluation. Thats it, count the rings.

Sarcasm not detected? I'm an outspoken opponent of the count-the-rings rubric. I thought it was obvious that I was joking.

Its one of the rules of communication, "If they don't get your sarcasm, they will surely think you are an idiot--unless, of course, they agree with you--then they are the idiots."
 

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I presume it's time to bring your old sig back, "Eindholm"...
 

fordronken

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elindholm said:
Sarcasm not detected? I'm an outspoken opponent of the count-the-rings rubric. I thought it was obvious that I was joking.

Wait. Somebody cut Robert Horry open so they could count the rings and see how old he is? I'm against that too. If we do that for somebody, it should be Dikembe Mutombo.
 

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JCSunsfan said:
Its one of the rules of communication, "If they don't get your sarcasm, they will surely think you are an idiot--unless, of course, they agree with you--then they are the idiots."

Or, the originator actually IS an idiot. It's a crapshoot, anyhoo.
 

elindholm

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Okay, now I'm confused. If anyone wants to call me an idiot, I guess I can tolerate that. But please, please don't say that I think Robert Horry is a great player.
 
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D-Dogg

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elindholm said:
But please, please don't say that I think Robert Horry is a great player.

Well, he is a pretty good actor and was a humorous rapper.
 

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