Zac Allen and Byron Murphy are free agents

[Chopper0080]

A lot of hand wronging over Allen and his contract. If you take his largest two cap years, 19 mil and 17 mil, average them out to 18, he would be the 22nd highest front 5 player in the NFL. He is top 40 in pressures in the NFL and could rise because I didn't break down what players ahead of him haven't had their bye week. His contract if far from the overpay you all are making it out to be in terms of his ability to pressure the opposing QB. Something that I hear is important even though we rarely see it in AZ.

 

[Chopper0080]

The end point is that our roster would be better with him on it than it is without him. Once we sign a free agent DL player who is more productive than him next year along with multiple other quality players at positions of importance then we can discuss how his contract dollars were better used.

 

[MadCardDisease]

A lot of hand wronging over Allen and his contract. If you take his largest two cap years, 19 mil and 17 mil, average them out to 18, he would be the 22nd highest front 5 player in the NFL. He is top 40 in pressures in the NFL and could rise because I didn't break down what players ahead of him haven't had their bye week. His contract if far from the overpay you all are making it out to be in terms of his ability to pressure the opposing QB. Something that I hear is important even though we rarely see it in AZ.

It's actually $19M and more like $20.75M in his last season. He has a void year in 2026 that includes $3.75M. That would make him more like top 10 for IDL.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

It's actually $19M and more like $20.75M in his last season. He has a void year in 2026 that includes $3.75M. That would make him more like top 10 for IDL.

So we're just going to ignore his $7 million dollar cap hit this year as it's not part of the deal?

 

[MadCardDisease]

So we're just going to ignore his $7 million dollar cap hit this year as it's not part of the deal?

Yes. 2023 was clearly a rebuilding year for the Cardinals. I'm 99% sure if the Cardinals kept Allen they still wouldn't be going to the Super Bowl this year. In fact I doubt that the Broncos are going to the SB this year either. So Allen's $19M cap hit next season is going to weigh heavy on the Broncos as they have -$17M is cap space heading into the 2024 season.

 

[BritCard]

Man people still going on about Zach Allen.

Vita Vea has more sacks. Kobie Turner has more sacks. Morgan Fox. Zach Sieler.

He's 60th in sacks. 41st in QB hits. 41st in hurries. 36th in pressures. He's a middling interior DL getting paid $15.25m a year. He would not have got us a single more win.

Dante Stills is as good as a rookie than Allen was in year 3.

Nothing against the man but I do not get people clinging to his memory like he's a big loss. Super jaggy guy.

 

[juza76]

Zach Allen was dominant yesterday

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Yes. 2023 was clearly a rebuilding year for the Cardinals. I'm 99% sure if the Cardinals kept Allen they still wouldn't be going to the Super Bowl this year. In fact I doubt that the Broncos are going to the SB this year either. So Allen's $19M cap hit next season is going to weigh heavy on the Broncos as they have -$17M is cap space heading into the 2024 season.

It's disingenuous to talk about the cap hit while ignoring the fact that he had an small hit this year relative to his talent.

 

[MadCardDisease]

It's disingenuous to talk about the cap hit while ignoring the fact that he had an small hit this year relative to his talent.

There are like 4 weeks left this year. When it comes to cap hit, next year is all that matters now.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

There are like 4 weeks left this year. When it comes to cap hit, next year is all that matters now.

The discussion is the cost of Zach Allen and his contract vs. his relative ability. You're comparing him to guys making top 10 money, and that's not germane to the conversation. His average cap hit is about $15 million per year...pretty much exactly what you'd expect a good young D-lineman coming off of his first contract!

Turning our noses up on the Zach Allens of the world is part of the reason we're such a bad franchise. Good teams retain their young talent - they don't trade 1st rounders for Hollywood Brown!

 

[MadCardDisease]

The discussion is the cost of Zach Allen and his contract vs. his relative ability. You're comparing him to guys making top 10 money, and that's not germane to the conversation. His average cap hit is about $15 million per year...pretty much exactly what you'd expect a good young D-lineman coming off of his first contract!

Turning our noses up on the Zach Allens of the world is part of the reason we're such a bad franchise. Good teams retain their young talent - they don't trade 1st rounders for Hollywood Brown!

No it's not turning our noses up. I like Zach Allen and feel he is a great rotational piece on the DL. I wish Keim would have extended him during the season at a reasonable number. That didn't happen.

I just don't think he is worth the money that Denver paid him. Like it or not Denver is going to have a $19M cap hit for him next season. When looking at the cap next season no one will care that he only counted $7M against the cap this season.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

When looking at the cap next season no one will care that he only counted $7M against the cap this season.

That's not the discussion though! We're trying to figure out his relative value to other players at his position, and salary throughout the contract matters. Of course nobody wants to pay him top 10 D-line money, but that's not what he's being paid over the life of the contract.

 

[MadCardDisease]

That's not the discussion though! We're trying to figure out his relative value to other players at his position, and salary throughout the contract matters. Of course nobody wants to pay him top 10 D-line money, but that's not what he's being paid over the life of the contract.

It think salary structure here does matter. The Broncos structured his contract to get him signed and squeeze him into the cap this season. A season where they realistically don't have a shot at the Super Bowl. Now they will have to deal with those cap hit consequences in the next two seasons.

 

[Chopper0080]

Man people still going on about Zach Allen.

Vita Vea has more sacks. Kobie Turner has more sacks. Morgan Fox. Zach Sieler.

He's 60th in sacks. 41st in QB hits. 41st in hurries. 36th in pressures. He's a middling interior DL getting paid $15.25m a year. He would not have got us a single more win.

Dante Stills is as good as a rookie than Allen was in year 3.

Nothing against the man but I do not get people clinging to his memory like he's a big loss. Super jaggy guy.

Here is the disingenuous nature of this argument. Aaron Donald leads non-edge NFL defensive players in pressures. Zach Allen is tied for 10th with Christian Wilkins in that group.

Zach Allen has 20 pressures and 5 sacks.

Aaron Donald has 27 pressures and 6 sacks.

Christian Wilkins has 20 pressures and 6.5 sacks.

Deforest Buckner has 19 pressures and 5.5 sacks.

Quinnen Williams has 21 pressures and 3 sacks.

Chris Jones has 23 pressures and 7.5 sacks.

So here is the thing. If you crap all over Zach Allen's production, but are ok with all of these other players, including Wilkins who some on this board want to pay significantly more money than Allen gets paid, you are not looking at this objectively. Essentially, you don't want to pay any player who isn't have a top 5 year at their position or producing high variance stats like sacks and interceptions.

 

[Chopper0080]

It think salary structure here does matter. The Broncos structured his contract to get him signed and squeeze him into the cap this season. A season where they realistically don't have a shot at the Super Bowl. Now they will have to deal with those cap hit consequences in the next two seasons.

Some of your argument is projecting things that you just can't know. You are implying that signing Allen would prevent the Cardinals from signing someone better or multiple long term players with impactful stats which no one has any way of knowing. Allen's contract is only detrimental if it prevents you from doing something which the Cardinals have not shown they are willing to do.

Is it better to sign Christian Wilkins next year at 18 mil per year when he is two years older than Allen and putting up very similar stats? What is your plan at DT in free agency next year that involves adding an impact DT?

 

[PJ1]

Here is the disingenuous nature of this argument. Aaron Donald leads non-edge NFL defensive players in pressures. Zach Allen is tied for 10th with Christian Wilkins in that group.

Zach Allen has 20 pressures and 5 sacks.

Aaron Donald has 27 pressures and 6 sacks.

Christian Wilkins has 20 pressures and 6.5 sacks.

Deforest Buckner has 19 pressures and 5.5 sacks.

Quinnen Williams has 21 pressures and 3 sacks.

Chris Jones has 23 pressures and 7.5 sacks.

So here is the thing. If you crap all over Zach Allen's production, but are ok with all of these other players, including Wilkins who some on this board want to pay significantly more money than Allen gets paid, you are not looking at this objectively. Essentially, you don't want to pay any player who isn't have a top 5 year at their position or producing high variance stats like sacks and interceptions.

You nailed it with this post. When the Cardinals do get active in FA I wonder where all these bargains are coming from.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Some of your argument is projecting things that you just can't know. You are implying that signing Allen would prevent the Cardinals from signing someone better or multiple long term players with impactful stats which no one has any way of knowing. Allen's contract is only detrimental if it prevents you from doing something which the Cardinals have not shown they are willing to do.

Is it better to sign Christian Wilkins next year at 18 mil per year when he is two years older than Allen and putting up very similar stats? What is your plan at DT in free agency next year that involves adding an impact DT?

I don't think the Cardinals need an Impact DT. The Cards would probably be able to find a solid DT in FA and the draft for a fraction of that cost. I'd rather they spend the money on an impact Edge Rusher, CB or WR.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't think the Cardinals need an Impact DT. The Cards would probably be able to find a solid DT in FA and the draft for a fraction of that cost. I'd rather they spend the money on an impact Edge Rusher, CB or WR.

Who are these players who are available?

You're much more likely to overpay for a disappointing WR or CB than you would an IDL.

 

[Chopper0080]

I don't think the Cardinals need an Impact DT. The Cards would probably be able to find a solid DT in FA and the draft for a fraction of that cost. I'd rather they spend the money on an impact Edge Rusher, CB or WR.

I feel like this is better insight into your mentality on this matter. Basically, you don't value an impact DT/DL as much as you value EDGE/CB/WR. I disagree with that mentality, but your argument makes more sense.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Here is the disingenuous nature of this argument. Aaron Donald leads non-edge NFL defensive players in pressures. Zach Allen is tied for 10th with Christian Wilkins in that group.

Zach Allen has 20 pressures and 5 sacks.

Aaron Donald has 27 pressures and 6 sacks.

Christian Wilkins has 20 pressures and 6.5 sacks.

Deforest Buckner has 19 pressures and 5.5 sacks.

Quinnen Williams has 21 pressures and 3 sacks.

Chris Jones has 23 pressures and 7.5 sacks.

So here is the thing. If you crap all over Zach Allen's production, but are ok with all of these other players, including Wilkins who some on this board want to pay significantly more money than Allen gets paid, you are not looking at this objectively. Essentially, you don't want to pay any player who isn't have a top 5 year at their position or producing high variance stats like sacks and interceptions.

Disingenuous is claiming that Zach Allen is the same as these guys who get Double and Tripled teamed on a regular basis.

I mean Zach Allen wasn't even 0 teamed on his sack here:

DE Zach Allen gets free for third-down sack | Broncos at Chiefs

 

[Chopper0080]

Who are these players who are available?

You're much more likely to overpay for a disappointing WR or CB than you would an IDL.

I disagree with it, but he just doesn't value a top player at the DT/DL position.

 

[Chopper0080]

Disingenuous is claiming that Zach Allen is the same as these guys who get Double and Tripled teamed on a regular basis.

I mean Zach Allen wasn't even 0 teamed on his sack here:

DE Zach Allen gets free for third-down sack | Broncos at Chiefs

Never said he was the same guy, but I am saying that you have to acknowledge the production is similar and not of a rotational NFL DL player and certainly not of Dante Stills.

 

[DVontel]

I don't think the Cardinals need an Impact DT. The Cards would probably be able to find a solid DT in FA and the draft for a fraction of that cost. I'd rather they spend the money on an impact Edge Rusher, CB or WR.

Every team in the NFL should be striving for an impact DT if they don’t already have one, lol.

 

[CFLredzoned]

I just think Monti is adverse to spending high dollar on any player at any position. Besides Kyler.

It will be interesting to see who will be the first player they finally open the checkbook for - in the $15M plus range.

 

[Chopper0080]

The silliness of ASFN is statements that these stat lines are basically the same for interior defensive line players.

6 hurries
7 QB knockdowns
5 sacks
20 pressures

and

2 hurries
1 QB knockdown
3.5 sacks
7 pressures