Zach Martin or Calvin Pryor?

[Cardiac]

Good topic and discussion. I'm all about trading back in this draft because of the depth and the fantastic job SK did during FA.

Top need is OLB pass rusher. Then Safety. Then TE. Then RT. Then DE.

When looking at the roster the only real hole is at Safety and I think Bowles can work around that without too much trouble.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Good topic and discussion. I'm all about trading back in this draft because of the depth and the fantastic job SK did during FA.

Top need is OLB pass rusher. Then Safety. Then TE. Then RT. Then DE.

When looking at the roster the only real hole is at Safety and I think Bowles can work around that without too much trouble.

I agree and like the idea of trading back. The problem is that top rated pass rushers wont be available if we trade back.

 

[football karma]

I'll take the lineman over the safety assuming equal ranking.

 

[Duckjake]

For close to a decade the Cardinals have been dancing around this huge, gaping, life-sucking-void of a hole called the offensive line. The only thing worse than ignoring the problem, would be only half-assing the solution. If Zack Martin falls to #20, there will probably be a number of other players that may be rated slightly higher, but this guy can play every position on the line. If not at RT, he could possibly be a Pro Bowl RG or the C for the next 10 years. Versatile, productive, smart, strong, polished technique, team captain, and one of the most competitive players eligible for this draft.

In 1998 the Cards drafted Anthony Clement in the 2nd round. 1999 the Cards drafted LJ Shelton in the first round. 2000 the Cards signed Mark Gruttadaria the starting Center for the SB champion Rams. 2001 the Card took Leonard Davis in the first round and signed Pete Kendall former first round pick of the Seattle Seahawks. All 5 were on the Cards roster in 2001 and the team sucked eggs and none of the players were still on the team that went to the SB.

Meanwhile Arizona drafts a Safety in the 3rd round in 2001 and the guy was still starting for the Cards 12 years later.

I take the Safety this May.

 

[Buckybird]

In 1998 the Cards drafted Anthony Clement in the 2nd round. 1999 the Cards drafted LJ Shelton in the first round. 2000 the Cards signed Mark Gruttadaria the starting Center for the SB champion Rams. 2001 the Card took Leonard Davis in the first round and signed Pete Kendall former first round pick of the Seattle Seahawks. All 5 were on the Cards roster in 2001 and the team sucked eggs and none of the players were still on the team that went to the SB.

Meanwhile Arizona drafts a Safety in the 3rd round in 2001 and the guy was still starting for the Cards 12 years later.

I take the Safety this May.

Sounds like us 3 texans are pretty damn smart

 

[ASUCHRIS]

BPA

positional priorities:
#1 pass rush olb, not more okafor/acho types
#2 safety
#3 tight end


IMO. RT is low priority, massie and sowell can play.

Agree with pass rusher first, in the interest of continuity I'd bring back Winston and let him/Massie fight it out.

 

[BACH]

I think there are four obvious choices in the first based on the roster needs.

In order of need I would rate them like this:

1. OLB - Abraham is very old and no really proven players behind him. Acho could develop to a solid starter on the SOLB, but that's not certain yet. No FAs available.

2. SS - Bell is as old as Abraham and not as good. Arguebly the weakest link on the defense last year. I see Johnson as a FS leaving a glaring hole at SS. Still options in FA for a veteran on a 1-year contract.

3. DE - Dockett is still great and this could be his last year unless he takes a pay-cut. Some depth is needed. Quality rotational players are still available in FA.

4. OT - Massie has shown great flashes but it's still unknown how good he is when he enters his 2nd year in this system. I would rate Sowell as a quality back-up/slightly below average starter. Massie and Sowell are two young players that could be become quality starters (Massie). Depth is needed. Plenty of solid RTs available in FA including Winston.

I think Keim should go BPA among these four position - if CB Dennard falls to #20 he could be an option as well.

So going back to the original question. I would without doubt take Pryor over Martin - if they are rated equally on the board.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

If we only could pick one of the two, then I say pick Pryor.

Not a fan of Zach Martin, I think he is a tweener that would end up being a strictly depth guy.

Thus Pryor whom would help the team more.

Personally, I don't like either.

 

[Garthshort]

Naturally, it will come down to how they appear on the Cards' Big Board. Since both fill a position of need, it's easy to go BPA. I'm guessing that they have Martin with a higher rating. But I have so much confidence in SK that if Pryor is the choice, I'll be VERY happy knowing that he was the BPA.

 

[Totally_Red]

That would be a great choice to have to make. I'd be happy with either. I

 

[Carolinacacti]

I agree and like the idea of trading back. The problem is that top rated pass rushers wont be available if we trade back.

Great year to trade back..

 

[WildBB]

For close to a decade the Cardinals have been dancing around this huge, gaping, life-sucking-void of a hole called the offensive line. The only thing worse than ignoring the problem, would be only half-assing the solution. If Zack Martin falls to #20, there will probably be a number of other players that may be rated slightly higher, but this guy can play every position on the line. If not at RT, he could possibly be a Pro Bowl RG or the C for the next 10 years. Versatile, productive, smart, strong, polished technique, team captain, and one of the most competitive players eligible for this draft.

word....I doubt he'll be at @20 - but if he slid just a bit...he'd be difficult to pass on. Especially when there are some questions about Pryor's coverage skills on big TE's, which we've had so much difficulty with.

In my mind Martin is the higher graded player. In the bigger picture...is that the direction they want to go in the 1st is the big question. There will be some good RT's available in the 2nd, imo. Mewhort and Bitonio should be there.

To me the OL still has some glaring questions overall. I'd rather have Sowell as a b/u at both T's. How is Massie's off season conditioning going might even be the biggest question.

I do like the possibility of trading down 5-7 spots (again) and p/u that 7th draft pick in the 3rd Rd somewhere. 1st Rd. may be the best spot to do it. But if they absolutely have to have either Martin, Pryor or Ealy then it's mtl not a good idea. But if they like someone else just as much (Buccannan, Ford, Shazier, Tuitt, Hageman, Amaro)...sure, do it.

 

[Jim Otis]

I'm going to wait awhile before trying to assess what we might do in the draft in May , we are still about 6 weeks out . Things are still happening in FA around the league . I see that the Eagles are putting an all-pro guard on the trade block , and Raiders are going to trade or release T Pryor before April 21 . I mention Pryor because if he could be convinced to convert to WR he could be that speed-demon that BA dreams about , the guy has Megatron type size and speed . I expect more things to come as we travel on through the rest of the FA period .

 

[Chopper0080]

If I am choosing between the two, I draft Calvin Pryor without much consideration.

Why?

Well Pryor offers flexability to play either S position depending on how sperated they are. I personally value the ability to be less predictable on defense and Pryor would allow you to do that more in the back end. Mathieu could play "FS" in base formations, but Pryor would give the Cardinals the ability to play Pryor deep middle if they wanted to move Mathieu closer to the LOS at times in base sets. Further, when Mathieu moves to the slot CB spot in sub packages, you could move Pryor to FS or SS depending on your S depth.

The other reason is I don't see the value in draft Zach Martin in the first round. While I am not a huge believer that you can find starting offensive linemen late in the draft, I do believe you can find then in rounds 2-4, if you can develop them. If I want to draft an offensive lineman in the first round, I need to be drafting a dominant player and not a limited player or a work in progress. When I look at Zach Martin, I see a limited player who is probably never going to be a dominant one. Personally, I don't believe that warrants his selection as one of the top 20 players in the draft.

 

[john h]

On NFL Network's "Path to the Draft" last night, they engaged in a very interesting and compelling debate about whether the Cardinals should take T Zach Martin or SS Calvin Pryor, if both are on the board at #20.

Seeing as Steve Keim has not added any new pieces to compete at RT and SS, the NFL Network crew has done a good job of identifying the likely players who could be instant starters for the Cardinals...which is what the Cardinals want to do with their first round picks, is start them asap.

One of the new pundits on the NFL Network crew is former Bears' WR Curtis Conway. I have found Conway to be surprisingly well-prepared and insightful. Both he and Charlie Casserly have assigned a higher grade to SS Calvin Pryor...but they both feel that adding RT Zach Martin and continuing to improve the offensive line would be the best move for the Cardinals.

I really know nothing about either of these guys but from listening to various radio and TV shows most of what I hear is SS is a position of need. Perhaps more so than any other.

 

[john h]

Zach Martin or Morgan Moses. Unless Taylor Lewan ( with his new off the field transgression ) drops to 20. I am not a big fan of drafting safeties in the 1st round. Line depth is a primary concern.

After the first 10 picks it becomes increasingly more difficult to guess who will be available when you draft. By pick 20 the odds are really long your exact man will be there when you select unless you are really reaching and think you know more than other teams. It seems most people think our greatest need is a SS. What if Johnny Football is there at #20? Would you take him? He could be great or a total bust. Kipper says taking him will be the most risky move in the draft.

 

[Totally_Red]

If I am choosing between the two, I draft Calvin Pryor without much consideration.

Why?

Well Pryor offers flexability to play either S position depending on how sperated they are. I personally value the ability to be less predictable on defense and Pryor would allow you to do that more in the back end. Mathieu could play "FS" in base formations, but Pryor would give the Cardinals the ability to play Pryor deep middle if they wanted to move Mathieu closer to the LOS at times in base sets. Further, when Mathieu moves to the slot CB spot in sub packages, you could move Pryor to FS or SS depending on your S depth.

The other reason is I don't see the value in draft Zach Martin in the first round. While I am not a huge believer that you can find starting offensive linemen late in the draft, I do believe you can find then in rounds 2-4, if you can develop them. If I want to draft an offensive lineman in the first round, I need to be drafting a dominant player and not a limited player or a work in progress. When I look at Zach Martin, I see a limited player who is probably never going to be a dominant one. Personally, I don't believe that warrants his selection as one of the top 20 players in the draft.

Charley Casserly has Calvin Pryor rated higher than he had either Eric Reid or Kenny Vaccaro, which is high praise from someone I consider a decent evaluator of talent.

"This team is close. They're a dark horse to win this division," NFL Network's Charley Casserly said on "Path to the Draft." "You have to think about who might be there (at No. 20). At right tackle, you've got Zack Martin. They may have to trade over Miami to get him. Martin, what I like about him is he's an excellent technician.
"The other position where I think there will be value at that point is safety," Casserly said. "Calvin Pryor. They need a thumper, a downhill, physical-type guy who plays strong safety. I like Pryor because that's exactly what he is."​

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap20...rtin-calvin-pryor-fit-cardinals-at-no-20-pick

 

[WildBB]

The other reason is I don't see the value in draft Zach Martin in the first round. While I am not a huge believer that you can find starting offensive linemen late in the draft, I do believe you can find then in rounds 2-4, if you can develop them. If I want to draft an offensive lineman in the first round, I need to be drafting a dominant player and not a limited player or a work in progress. When I look at Zach Martin, I see a limited player who is probably never going to be a dominant one. Personally, I don't believe that warrants his selection as one of the top 20 players in the draft.

Same could be said about Pryor. Bit short, limited range and average speed.

Martin plays with a tenacity and has an very decent skill set to go along with it. But for what it's worth I like Pryor's playing edge as well. Both would be solid additions.

 

[Cardiac]

I agree and like the idea of trading back. The problem is that top rated pass rushers wont be available if we trade back.

Fair point. Who are the best pass rushers in the draft and will any of them be available with the 20th pick?

Clowney, Mack, Barr, Ford. Possibly Ealey and Donald.

Any others that have a high ceiling to develop into a legit pass rusher?

 

[the_future23]

I think this team needs a safety bad. Especially with Mathieu out. A big hitter like Pryor is perfect for this team.

 

[Chopper0080]

Same could be said about Pryor. Bit short, limited range and average speed.

Martin plays with a tenacity and has an very decent skill set to go along with it. But for what it's worth I like Pryor's playing edge as well. Both would be solid additions.

Pryor has really good range which is why he played FS at Louisville. And, with S, techinique is more important than pure speed. Pryor just plays with enough edge that he can fit at SS or FS if your team designates much of a difference.

Martin isn't playing LT in the NFL. He may not be able to play RT either, but I think he can. I don't see why you would draft a OG/RT at #20 who doesn't have dominating size or athleticism.

 

[Chopper0080]

I think this team needs a safety bad. Especially with Mathieu out. A big hitter like Pryor is perfect for this team.

Personally, I believe Pryor's ability to play single high AND in the box is what makes him ideal. I want Mathieu as close to the line of scrimmage as possible because that is where he wrecks havoc. Having a S who can play single high and in the box allows that to happen more.

Honestly, I am starting to wonder if the Cardinals will move Mathieu to CB since he already plays the slot. I didn't think they would due to size, but then I saw him covering TEs out of the slot.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Fair point. Who are the best pass rushers in the draft and will any of them be available with the 20th pick?

Clowney, Mack, Barr, Ford. Possibly Ealey and Donald.

Any others that have a high ceiling to develop into a legit pass rusher?

I think Ford, Ealy and Donald have a shot to be there. I dont think there are any others (pass rushers) I would consider with the #20 pick. If all 6 of these are gone, I would love a trade back scenario or grabbing Prior, Nix, or Ebron.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Personally, I believe Pryor's ability to play single high AND in the box is what makes him ideal. I want Mathieu as close to the line of scrimmage as possible because that is where he wrecks havoc. Having a S who can play single high and in the box allows that to happen more.

Honestly, I am starting to wonder if the Cardinals will move Mathieu to CB since he already plays the slot. I didn't think they would due to size, but then I saw him covering TEs out of the slot.

I think Prior is one of the best tacklers in the draft. He tackles the right away too. Head up, shoulder first, etc.

 

[WildBB]

Pryor has really good range which is why he played FS at Louisville. And, with S, techinique is more important than pure speed. Pryor just plays with enough edge that he can fit at SS or FS if your team designates much of a difference.

Martin isn't playing LT in the NFL. He may not be able to play RT either, but I think he can. I don't see why you would draft a OG/RT at #20 who doesn't have dominating size or athleticism.

These ratings aren't in a vacuum. Martin is in the top 20 - almost everywhere. Someone with "more dominant size or more athletic" do not have the same or better ratings in more than a few instances. Can they have a better careers? Possibly. It's not guaranteed.

Can Martin turn out better than Lewan. Absolutely. He is going to be an excellent RT. They both may have great careers. Martin just has ability to swing inside as well if it would be a necessity. He's just a very versatile player. It's not a negative.