Zero Appeal

[Brian]

I was just reading alot of the threads and the posts are filled with talk about Free Agents and it got me to thinking...

As a GM or VP of Player Personnel, you have to make sales pitches to players (specifically Free Agents). There are alot of variables involved other than money (which is a constant variable that all teams have at some point or another, so let's set that to the side for the time being). So, when a player comes to visit, what could Rod Graves possibly be able to throw at them? I've thought about it and come up with some lists for both Pros and Cons. Now these are under the assumption that there are two or more teams making a sales pitch with equal money to spend.

PROS :

1) Nice weather in the winter

2) Nice turf at SDS

3) Semi-decent night life (now remember I'm am catering this to the young guys, and it is a complaint I have heard players voice)

4) A HEAD coach who is committed to winning (has made some bonehead decisions but you can't question his desire and the players love to play for him)


That's it, that's all I could come up with, and for each of those I came up with a counter (trying to stay neutral)



CONS :


1)Hot as hell in the summer (see Michael Strahan)

2) Nice Turf, but they are the only team in major sports to play at a college facility.

3) Semi-boring night life

4) Unproven and undesired assistants (in my humble opinion, if they were cut loose, they would have a hard time finding jobs)

And here is where the list gets lopsided:

5) Total and complete ineptitude in the front office.

6) An owner who could care less about winning (say what you want about Snyder, you can't argue with his desire to win).

7) A long and rich tradition of losing.

8) A HORRIBLE fan base. (As a general rule that is, you guys reading this are obviously loyal)

9) A loooonnnnng list of boneheaded player/coaching decisions i.e. Jay Schroeder, Buddy Ryan, and letting loose Larry Centers, David Boston, Jamir Miller, Garrison Hearst etc. etc.

10) Little or no national spotlight.

11) Little or no Pro-Bowl representation.

12) One playoff win in 50+ years

And the list goes on and on..................

Hell, even the latest list on ESPN has the Cards as the 3rd worst franchise (which I disagree with, they have the Bengals ranked higher and I can remember seeing them in the Super Bowl)

So, my point is whether you agree or disagree with Rod Graves' "don't judge until training camp" statement, his work sure is cut out for him.

If anyone thinks my assessment is wrong or off base I would welcome your comments.

 

[Houdini]

That list seems pretty accurate. I think one other CON that hurts the Cardinals this year in free agency is that their coach is in his last year of his contract. If you are a free agent, would you sign a long term deal not knowing who your coach will be next year? I don't think that's the biggest CON, but I do think it's a big one.

 

[Brian]

Agreed,

I also forgot to throw in as PROS:

A new Stadium ( I kind of deliberately left that off since some players contracts will be up before it's complete)

A wonderful practice facility.

 

[JeffGollin]

If anyone thinks my assessment is wrong or off base I would welcome your comments.
Pretty accurate. But useless unless we do something about it.

First thing is to improve the football team. You do that by choosing the right players and then doing whatever it takes to bring them in. (Including paying them more money if that's what it takes).

Once you do that, the team begins to take on a reputation for being committed to building a winner.

This, in turn makes the team more attractive to other free agents on the fence. More good players join the team and you don't have to overpay them any more to get them to come here.

And then you win.

Suddenly life becomes easier, simpler and a lot more enjoyable.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by Houdini
That list seems pretty accurate. I think one other CON that hurts the Cardinals this year in free agency is that their coach is in his last year of his contract. If you are a free agent, would you sign a long term deal not knowing who your coach will be next year? I don't think that's the biggest CON, but I do think it's a big one.

Mac has two years left on his deal. Everyone assumes this is his last year, because conventional wisdom is he'll be fired if we have another season like the last one.

 

[green machine]

Go

I still don't like the comments on Bidwill not caring if we win or lose. I think he wants to win more then anyone, but he is not sure how. Every time he gives someone too much power it backfires on him. Last year when we were doing well there were shots of McGinnis with his arms around Bidwill with Bidwill having a huge smile on his face. You can say he's a fool if you want, but I do think he cares about winning.

adam
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BlushDelice

 

[Brian]

First thing is to improve the football team. You do that by choosing the right players and then doing whatever it takes to bring them in. (Including paying them more money if that's what it takes).

I also see that as the first major step in turning things around, but that raises serious concerns with me for two reasons:

1) While I agree it's a necessary evil, I would HATE to see the team overpay to get mid-tier (credit to Krang for the use of the word ) players. For the record I consider every available free agent that has been brought in so far as mid-tier. That includes Kordell (imagine him getting Plummer-type money), and Colvin ( he's good but be honest, how many of you were saying during the season last year "god, I'd love to see him in a Card uniform next year"). He's good but he's no Ray Lewis, so while I'd like to see him sign, I think he and Kordell's value has shot up because of the lack of FA's at their respective positions.

2) As long as Dollar Bill is running the show the big-time offers are never gonna get dangled in someone's face.

What I would really like to see, and I think is a viable solution is concentrating more effort in bringing in coaches who have a SYSTEM that is proven. I.E. dangling big money @ Monte Kiffin (from Tampa Bay) as defensive coordinator.

Hey, signing proven commodities without having to develop them has worked for the Yankees so far hasn't it?....................

 

[Houdini]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
Mac has two years left on his deal. Everyone assumes this is his last year, because conventional wisdom is he'll be fired if we have another season like the last one.

Whoops. You're right. He does have 2 years left on his contract.

 

[Houdini]

Originally posted by green machine
I still don't like the comments on Bidwill not caring if we win or lose. I think he wants to win more then anyone, but he is not sure how. Every time he gives someone too much power it backfires on him. Last year when we were doing well there were shots of McGinnis with his arms around Bidwill with Bidwill having a huge smile on his face. You can say he's a fool if you want, but I do think he cares about winning.

adam

I once heard a coach say to his players something to the effect that everyone wants to win, but do you want to put in the work, effort, and commitment it takes to win. I agree Bidwill wants to win, but I don't feel he's willing to put forth the commitment it takes to win.

 

[football24/7]

I agree 100%. If Bidwill cant figure out how to win, he should hire a football man to do it for him. Since he cannot fully relinquish these duties and trust this individual, HE IS the problem. Good owners step aside and let qualified GM's do their thing. 50 years and counting for this franchise, and no end in sight.

 

[Houdini]

The Cardinals once drafted Joe Namath. The Jets of the AFL were willing to make the commitment to pay Namath more than the Cardinals were in the NFL. It turned out to be a pretty good investment by the Jets. It's a new era, but the same Bidwill.

 

[ajcardfan]

Bidwill's problem is that he runs this as a business to make money. He can't afford deficits. So, he has to be tight on the signing bonuses. I believe he does want to win, but in those parameters which immediately puts him at a disadvantage. I remember a story about how Art Modell took out loans to sign some big players at the time in the late 80s to try and win a Super Bowl. Then, he was so far in debt he had to move when he didn't get a new stadium in Cleveland. Bidwill would never do that, and until he does spend big, he's at a disadvantage with the Bowlens and Jones of the league. We all hope the new stadium greatly increases his ability to compete, but even then I don't see him ever running this team at a loss.

 

[Brian]

What I would really like to see, and I think is a viable solution is concentrating more effort in bringing in coaches who have a SYSTEM that is proven. I.E. dangling big money @ Monte Kiffin (from Tampa Bay) as defensive coordinator.

I know this is bumping my own thread, and for that I apologize.

I would really like to know from someone who has more knowledge of this than me. Can this be done? I know the price Tampa had to pay to get Gruden. Do the same rules apply to assistants?

I truly, truly believe if the Cards had gotten aggressive and dangled Kiffin an offer he couldn't refuse, we'd all see a MAJOR difference in the FA activity around Cardland right now. The man's a genius, the players know it, and it would eliminate some of the CONS I had listed earlier, I.E. "lack of national spotlight", "media attention", "Pro-Bowl representation" etc.

Who knows? Maybe even "one playoff win in 50+ yrs" could get scratched off.

 

[AntSports Steve]

Well, the list was the same 5 years ago, but it stated No playoff wins in 45 years. At least the Cards finally got a win!

Now do I have to go another 45 years to see another?


My dream is a home playoff game... ah yes... the Dream.

 

[JeffGollin]

While I agree it's a necessary evil, I would HATE to see the team overpay to get mid-tier players
Why? It's not your money.

If overpaying a few mid-tier players accomplishes our objective of flipping the negative aroma surrounding the Cardinals, why worry about it. It will have accomplished its purpose.

I suspect that one reason why some owners emerge winners while others (and you know who you are, right?) never do - is that the winners do whatever it takes to get the job done.

If that means foregoing an evening listening to Yo Yo Ma in order to attend a hip-hop concert starring Yo Ma Ma - with a star FA linebacking prospect or sweetening a deal beyond all realm of sanity - they'll do it in order to bring the team that much closer to playoff contention.

Sometimes this means throwing away the NFL Football Ownership 101 text book and overpaying a couple of players. Judiciously springing for a few extra bucks can turns out to be a pretty good investment.

 

[RedStorm]

I think if Bidwill really wanted to win he would go into debt to field a winner. That is the risk. I think he has an adversion to risk.....

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
If that means foregoing an evening listening to Yo Yo Ma in order to attend a hip-hop concert starring Yo Ma Ma - with a star FA linebacking prospect or sweetening a deal beyond all realm of sanity - they'll do it in order to bring the team that much closer to playoff contention.

First, truer...and funnier words have never been spoken. That is hilarious.

As for the running in debt idea, while I don't know the Bidwills financial statements, IMO he could take monetary risks and run the team for a short time period at a loss without severly damaging his bottom line. They have owned the team forever. Surely they are worth ALOT of money. Taking a monetary risk for a couple years could be done and the payoff down the road would hopefully be much bigger than the initial loss of money.

 

[RedStorm]

Just ask Jerry C. He brought a championship within 4 years. Granted...there is a difference between Baseball and Football but something has to be said about having a desire to win and spending the money to do so. And I am not just talking about the salary cap. But the bells and whistles and bonuses that it will take to get the guys in here and keep here.

 

[green machine]

Go

Originally posted by RedStorm
I think if Bidwill really wanted to win he would go into debt to field a winner. That is the risk. I think he has an adversion to risk.....

Why should we expect someone to go into debt? What if it fails, the players get hurt or something and the team doesn't draw many fans? I don't think he should have to go in debt, and I think that is unfair of us to ask.

adam
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LIST OF TRANSMISSIONS

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by green machine
Why should we expect someone to go into debt? What if it fails, the players get hurt or something and the team doesn't draw many fans? I don't think he should have to go in debt, and I think that is unfair of us to ask.

adam

That's the risk you take. I am not saying take an UNINFORMED RISK. But you have to take a risks in this life to get ahead.

Just think about it. You will see that I am right...

 

[DevonCardsFan]

Maybe Rod Graves can pitch all the great Golf Courses and nice weather to players, I know E Smith, K Stewart and Sehorn play alot of golf, maybe he can seal the deal with these 3 players with golf passes, because there isn't really much else too make someone come to the Cardinals, if I was a free agent and saw Plummer and Boston leave I would have no interest in going to the pathetic Cardinals

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by green machine
Why should we expect someone to go into debt? What if it fails, the players get hurt or something and the team doesn't draw many fans? I don't think he should have to go in debt, and I think that is unfair of us to ask.

adam

It is one thing for him to go into debt...which implies he has more liabilities than assets. It is entirely different to ask him to operate the team in debt (at a loss) for a couple of seasons to try and turn this thing around for which his own bottom line likely wouldn't be hurt too badly and hopefully the success would translate into many more dollars into his pockets than he lost during that 2-3 period...playoff appearances, more merchandise being sold maybe even, dare I say it, a Super Bowl appearnce and win?

If he wants to win he must take risks...that much has been proven time and again. Taking risks doesn't provide any guarantees...especially in football. But I think it would be well worth it for him to try it. At least nobody could say he was cheap.

 

[RonF]

Bidwill has always paid the Cardinals well, it's just that the players have an opportunity to seek greener pastures and perhaps connect with a team headed for the Super Bowl. How many of us would leave our current place of employment if we were offered a better deal elsewhere? If they don't want to sign with the Cards, so be it. Let's draft our own and convince them to stay. That is where I believe we could improve the most. How many times has the Card management let a player who was drafted by the Cards, had all the potential in the world, walk because someone didn't know how to keep the lines of communication open. That is just plain stupid and expensive when you consider that you have to start all over to replace them. We need communicators not a new coaching staff, people who know how to reach people. How about it Skorrp, want the job?

 

[RedStorm]

Let's draft our own and convince them to stay. That is where I believe we could improve the most. How many times has the Card management let a player who was drafted by the Cards, had all the potential in the world, walk because someone didn't know how to keep the lines of communication open.

What has been the one constant all these years? Who has been the chief contract negotiator?

Changes need to happen but they are in the front office. People, Policy and Procedures need to change.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
If anyone thinks my assessment is wrong or off base I would welcome your comments.
Pretty accurate. But useless unless we do something about it.

First thing is to improve the football team. You do that by choosing the right players and then doing whatever it takes to bring them in. (Including paying them more money if that's what it takes).

Once you do that, the team begins to take on a reputation for being committed to building a winner.

This, in turn makes the team more attractive to other free agents on the fence. More good players join the team and you don't have to overpay them any more to get them to come here.

And then you win.

Suddenly life becomes easier, simpler and a lot more enjoyable.

I am beginning to think we are going to have to build this team through the draft but that only works if you can keep your draft picks and good players for more than their original contract. We are having no luck attracting any FA's and it is certainly not about the money. It is clearly about being losers and owernship. We are going to have to start retaining the good players well before contract expiration and with decent offers. I just see no hope for the next two years to be realistic. It has nothing to do with the coach. Vince Lombardi could not win under with our current players. We are going to end up singing the second and third echelon players who have no offers anywhere else and unless we get very lucky next year will be very long. It is sure discouraging when you have a bag full of money and no one wants it. You can just imagine what we are thought of by other NFL players. I did not fathom this until all I have been reading and our lack of getting any FA's. I sensed what most of us knew when Ferguson was quickly signed and he indicated he was nothing more than a scout.